Posts from DISCUSSIONS on “Rules for online games in HoMM3 and formulas for calculating player rating.” Auto-translated

I think it would be a good idea to allow them (Izre and Vidomine) to learn the Necromancy skill as their last skill, if they even get to that point. But it will still be disappointing to have to grab random skills.

As for the fact that you can pull them out of the dungeon already leveled up, I think you can use that to your advantage. It's rare anyway, so if you manage to do it, you're just lucky. Something like that.

based on recent gameplay experience,
I defended against a large group of golems and scored 113 points (playing as Sylvan).
The opponent had Vidomina with esper-enhanced necromancy and a lot of gold.
Of course, I didn't discard her; I hid her in the castle first, and then used her as a resource collector. I discarded the skeletons immediately. The opponent was happy about this after a frustrating loss in the final and claimed victory due to a rules violation on HW.

A player who demands a technical victory on such grounds does not deserve any respect, nor do the judges or the arbitration committee if they grant such a technical win in the case of a complaint from such a player. I myself have used freed, previously banned heroes (Isru, Vidomina, Mullich) as scouts without engaging them in any battles, and I have not received any complaints from opponents about this. If I had, I would have told them to go away, and possibly very far away :D

Master_A, can you share your opponent's nickname (so that he can bask in undying glory)? :)

A player demanding a technical victory on such grounds does not deserve any respect, nor do the judges or the Tournament Committee if they award such a technical win in the case of a complaint from such a player.

Valentin, if you are a judge, and there are established rules (which, by the way, are mandatory), and a player has violated the rules, will you issue a ruling in favor of the player who violated the rule?

Valentin, if you are a judge, and there are established rules (which, by the way, must be followed), and a Player violated the rules, will you make a decision in favor of the Player who violated the rule?

I have already said everything – I can only add that our far from perfect rules for online games need to be followed within reasonable limits. And would you credit a technical loss to a player who clearly won the game but formally violated the rules in a way that did not affect the outcome of the game at all? :confused:

I've already said everything – I can only add that our far from perfect rules for online games need to be followed within reasonable limits. And what about you, would you give a technical loss to a player who clearly won the game but violated the rules in a purely formal way, which did not affect the outcome of the game in the slightest? :confused:

The opponent, Master_A, did not contact us, but regarding the specific game described by Master_A, my opinion would be – if the opponent, Master_A, is unwilling to agree to annul the match, then Master_A should receive a technical loss.

I like the new wording for the restarts, but I would prefer a total of 3 (111+111+111 or 112+111 or 113). Hit-and-run is prohibited: an attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they used magic that helped inflict additional damage to the opponent. It is allowed to inflict damage on oneself (e.g., to reduce the ransom cost). Or, perhaps, formulate it differently so that it also covers all Berserk and Haste effects, as Haste can also inflict additional damage. Points 5.10.1 and 5.10.3 contradict each other (regarding Sir Mullich). I propose the following: 5.10.3: If Sir Mullich reaches level 4 or higher, or a Necromancy specialist (Izra, Vidomina) develops the "Spellcasting" expert skill (except when it is the last skill), then these heroes cannot participate in any battles. If a hero participates in a battle or is attacked, they must be dismissed on the same day (if a hero retreats from a battle, they can be bought back immediately if they are dismissed on the same day). Points 5.10.1 and 5.10.2 will become unnecessary. If a player sees an opponent break through one of the guards of a passage, they can pass by the remaining guards of that passage without breaking them. +1 If a player does not see an opponent breaking through the guards, but for some reason believes that the guards were broken, they have the right to ask the opponent to clarify this. The opponent, in turn, must provide accurate information. -1 Remove point "5.10.4. That is, transferred spells cannot be used against neutral monsters, the computer, or an opponent without fulfilling the above conditions. 5.16. In the Conflux castle, upgrading monsters to levels 1, 6, and 7 is prohibited (upgrading to levels 1 and 6 is allowed if they are the last buildings in the castle). When playing as Conflux and Necropolis, the starting hero is chosen randomly when the map is generated. The Grail can be unearthed if the cross is visible on the puzzle map. 5.14.2 and 5.14.3: Why introduce these if they cannot be checked?

The opponent, Master_A, did not contact me, but regarding the specific game described by Master_A, my opinion would be – if the opponent does not want to agree to annul the game, then Master_A should receive a technical defeat.

Unfortunately, you have once again confirmed my opinion about you as an inadequate judge (please don't take offense – this is not a personal insult, but an opinion about your judging qualities). For you, the game is nothing, and formalities are everything. IMHO, you cannot judge like that.

I would remove the following points: - If a player did not see the opponent's guard being defeated, but for some reason believes that the guard was defeated, then he has the right to clarify this point with the opponent. The opponent, in turn, must provide accurate information. - *i.e., if the guard is present and you are not sure if this direction was attacked before, then you must attack it yourself.* 5.14.2. It is forbidden to use the bug of viewing the opponent's hero. 5.14.3. It is allowed to use the bug of viewing the opponent's cities. 5.14.4. Is it allowed (or forbidden?) to attack a Garrison more than once, in which there is an improved stack? - *I can hardly imagine when this attack could be useful; IMHO, it should be left as is.* For: - Random heroes in Conflux and Necropolis; - The Grail can be dug up if the cross is visible on the map-puzzle; - It is forbidden to sell Artifacts or Scrolls at prices that do not correspond to their actual price on the Artifact Market (Tower, Conflux, Dungeon); - If, when leveling up, the only skill offered to Izra or Vidomina is Expert Sorcery, then it can be taken, and the hero does not necessarily have to be dismissed. - *it is necessary to implement this!* - The Border Guard is equated to the guard of an object, and, without visiting the corresponding tent and removing the guard, it is impossible to take Pandoras, scrolls, artifacts, or visit various objects behind the guard. Instead of: *5.10. Hero restrictions.* *5.10.1. If Sir Mullich reaches level 3, he must be dismissed on the same day.* *5.10.2. Izra and Vidomina are forbidden to upgrade the "sorcery" skill to the "expert" level. Otherwise, this hero must be dismissed within four days of obtaining expert sorcery (example: on day 124, Vidomina upgraded "sorcery" to the "expert" level, so, at the latest, on day 127, she must be dismissed).* *5.10.3. If Sir Mullich above level 3, or a necromancy specialist (Izra, Vidomina) with the "expert" sorcery skill, is released from prison, then these heroes must be dismissed within four days of being released from prison. During these four days, these heroes are allowed to participate in battles.* We do: 5.10. Hero restrictions. 5.10.1. It is forbidden to upgrade Sir Mullich above level 1; Izra and Vidomina are forbidden to upgrade the "sorcery" skill to the "expert" level; otherwise, these heroes must be dismissed on the same day. (If, when leveling up, the only skill offered to Izra or Vidomina is Expert Sorcery, then it can be taken, and the hero does not necessarily have to be dismissed). If Sir Mullich above level 1, or a necromancy specialist (Izra, Vidomina) with the "expert" sorcery skill, is released from prison, then they can be used, but they cannot participate in battles. If they enter a battle for any reason, these heroes must not attack the opponent and must retreat in the first round of the battle; they cannot be redeemed.

...I am also interested in the specific punishment for violating any rules...

The topic about the new version of the rules I raised now is not so much to radically change anything in the rules for CM; we have been playing by them more or less normally for over a year, but rather to make necessary changes to the structure of the rules.

I propose the following structure:
I. General organizational issues.
II. Rules for online games on the 2SM4d(3) template and SoD version.
III. Rules for online games on other templates and the SoD version.
IV. Differences for the WT version.
V. Non-standard and controversial situations. Judging.
VI. Regulations for the seasonal Rating Tournament.
VII. Formulas for calculating ratings.

And the main additions are sections III (those who do not participate in tournaments often do not know additional rules for other templates), section V (resolving disputes, which we seem to have too many of lately), and section VII (I cannot simply remove the old formulas and replace them with new ones because the rating was calculated based on them for about 2 years).
We will discuss judging and specific penalties when I write section V in draft form.

Here is section III written, I collected the rules for other templates, we play by them in tournaments, and they have become established. Please read it and identify any inaccuracies or errors.

III. Rules for online games on other templates and the SoD version.
Descriptions and text files of the most popular templates, as well as information on how the random map generator works, can be found in the topic Useful info: templates, maps, programs
When playing on templates different from 2SM4d(...), it is recommended to adhere to the general rules set out in Section II, with individual differences for each template.

1. Differences for 8mm6/8mm6a, 8xm12/8xm12a, 6LM10/6LM10a, Spider:
- Map settings: XL+U, 2 players + 6 computers, difficulty 160%.
- Restart due to slow paths. It is taken if at least one of the opponents wants it immediately after map generation.
- Allowed to pass from respawn to respawn without breaking through a shifted guard.
- If level 1, 6, or 7 upgrades are made in the Conflux or level 4 upgrade in the Necropolis on the computer's castle, then upgrading your troops of these levels and hiring upgraded versions of creatures is prohibited. If an Anti-Magic Zone has been built, vampire upgrades are prohibited, and additional skeletons do not need to be disbanded.
- Restart at the player's request who has only one path leading to the treasure zone guard. It is taken on the day this fact is discovered, but no later than turn 114.
- Restart at the player's request who has a strong block that cannot be bypassed. How strong the block is is determined by mutual agreement between the players or by the judges. It is taken on the day this fact is discovered, but no later than turn 113.
- Restart at the player's request who does not have a road leaving the castle (castle in the middle of nowhere, very rare). It is taken immediately after map generation.

2. Differences for Jebus cross:
- Standard map settings: XL-U size, two players, no water, monsters - strong, difficulty 160%, time limit per turn – 8 minutes.
- Restart at the player's request who has only one path leading to the GO. It is taken on the day this fact is discovered.
- Restart at the player's request who does not have a path to the central treasure zone. It is taken on the day this fact is discovered.
- Restart due to slow paths. It is taken if at least one of the opponents wants it immediately after map generation.
- Using "Angel Wings" and spells "Fly" and "Dimension Door" when moving from one zone to another is allowed only if the guard between them has been broken through.
- In case of buggy passages appearing between zones, you can pass to the neighboring zone only if the GO to the center has been broken through from both zones.

3. Differences for Panic and Balance:
- Standard map settings: L-U size, people - 2, computers - 0, no water, monsters - strong, difficulty 130% (battleship).

4. Differences for Nostalgia:
- Map settings: XL+U, 2 players + 6 computers, difficulty 160%.
- Restart at the player's request who has only one path leading to the GO. It is taken on the day this fact is discovered.
- During restarts, it is recommended to ensure that there are at least two paths besides the GO.
- Prohibited to pass by a shifted GO (this does not apply to other passages).
- Restart due to slow paths. It is taken if at least one of the opponents wants it immediately after map generation.

5. Differences for Mini-Nostalgia:
- Map settings: L+U for 8 players (i.e., with 6 computers). You can also play in pairs; then neutral castles will be placed instead of the computers.
- To avoid double builds, the choice of castles for the computers is made by the players alternately, one at a time. The blue player starts choosing. There should be no repetitions or coincidences with the players' castles. Before starting the game, the host assigns the selected castles to the computers.
- Allowed to run to neighboring respawns past shifted guards (except for the GO), as the computers ignore the shifted guard and, moreover, breaking through to the computer is much easier than taking its castle.

6. Differences for Anarchy (only SoD/TE-light):
- Map settings - L+U, two players.
- Difficulty - 200%, for TE-light start with 2500 gold, 5 wood, and 5 stone.
- All rules are canceled except for fair play.
- Restarts - 111, 113, and due to a hero not on level one. No restarts due to encounters or blocks.
- EVERYTHING ELSE IS ALLOWED! That is, there are no restrictions on diplomacy, shifted guards, profile castles, using scrolls, red rush, etc. There are also no restrictions on necromancers and flux.
- There are two options for choosing starting castles: either a normal draw or full random, that is, a random starting castle, hero, and resource. In the second option, when each subjective restart is taken, the players switch colors; in objective restarts (hero level, bugs, etc.), the colors do not change.

We will continue discussing the rules for CM... then I will put everything together and try to systematize it.[/B]

For reaching the Grail after opening the cross.
And for unbanning Mullich completely. I also can't understand what will happen to Mullich if he reaches level 2, or, God forbid, level 4? Will he become some kind of Superman?))) Will Offense and Armor appear immediately, along with Loga and everything else?;)

Added after 42 seconds
Ah, and for spending a total of 3 days on rests, like Romario.

Points 5.10.1 and 5.10.3 contradict each other (regarding Sir Mullich). I suggest the following: 5.10.3. If Sir Mullich reaches level 3 or higher, or if a Necromancer specialist (Izra, Vidomina) develops the expert skill "Wizardry" (except when it is the last skill), then these heroes cannot participate in any battles. If a hero participates in a battle or is attacked, they must be dismissed on the same day (if the hero retreats from the battle, they can be bought back immediately if they are dismissed on the same day).

It can be simpler.
Mullich level 3 or higher, as well as Izra and Vidomina with expert Wizardry, cannot attack heroes and neutral monsters.

Let them stay in the castle and defend against the computer, even with level 10, and there is no need to dismiss them. If Izra fills the place with skeletons, well, so be it. There are also no problems with freeing them from prison.

The Grail can be dug up if the cross is visible on the map.

This is the same as forbidding digging it up.

If the player saw the opponent break through one of the passage guards... if the player did not see the opponent breaking through the guard...

If you run to the opponent through a swamp secondary town that you took from them, there is no guard on the road, and there is a guard 4 squares away from the road in the swamp. The opponent clearly ran along the road when capturing the secondary town. Is it necessary to spend half a day breaking through a monster stuck in the swamp?

Added 5 minutes ago

(for 8mm6)
- Restart at the player's request if the only road leads to the treasure guard. It is done on the day this fact is discovered, but no later than day 114.

If a 12500-guard treasure is completely blocking the way, is this a reason for a restart or not?

(for Anarchy)
- Difficulty - 200%,

Where did this come from?

For players who enjoy nitpicking the rules when losing and searching for minor, formal violations in their opponent's actions that had no impact on the game, and for judges like Pavel Dubrovin, who believe that such claims are valid and justified, I suggest adding a prominent text in red at the top of the rules: "Players' claims of rule violations that did not affect the course of the game may be rejected by the judges (at their discretion)," or something similar.

Yeah, you could also allow maphacks, as long as they don't significantly affect the gameplay.

- On restarts, it is recommended to ensure there are at least 2 roads besides the GO.

Is this a rule or advice? :)

On Nostalgia, the same rule applies regarding the GO as on SM - if the only road leads to the GO, then a restart.

Restart at the player's discretion if their only road leads to a treasure zone guard

This rule seems unnecessary to me - 12500 is not such a serious guard to be a blocker. Besides, it doesn't block the respawn; you can develop and break through on the second day. I don't recall such a restart ever being used on Bay or in the Chaos League.

If we are to adopt such a rule, then Spider should also be mentioned - there are exactly the same 12500 guards in the zones adjacent to the player, and they can also block the only passage.

Added after 2 minutes

For players who like to cling to rules when losing and look for minor formal violations in the opponent's actions that did not affect the game in any way, and judges like Pavel Dubrovin who consider such complaints to be correct and justified, I propose to write in large red letters an approximate text at the top of the rules - "Player complaints about rule violations that did not affect the course of the game may be rejected at the judges' discretion" or something similar.

Actually, the measure of punishment is not specified in the HeroesWorld rules. That is, issuing a tech loss for violating the rules is a personal initiative of a specific judge.

It's interesting how things turn out. There are some "minor violations." Why do I play strictly according to the rules? Even when I have a flying unit, I spend extra movement points to kill the guards, even though they can be defeated without losses in a quick battle? And someone might say, "Oh, why bother fighting? They'll be defeated without losses anyway, so I won't waste movement points. It won't affect the outcome of the game." Why do I dismiss Mullich, a level 3 hero? And someone might say, "What difference does it make?" No, it doesn't. There are rules – follow them. Or let's create a hierarchy of what can be violated and what cannot. I think this is fair and normal.