Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition - Tactical Edition. — Mods: Tribes of the East, Hammers of Fate and Vanilla — Page 57

Registered: 2/10/2012

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#847 9/3/2017 8:06 AM UTC

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Nargott

Kujin: special demons, like in the original (+add the "demon" property to all shamans).

Has the special ability been tested? It seems to only work if there are demons in the enemy army.

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Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#848 9/3/2017 11:58 AM UTC

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Not yet, I haven't tested it myself – rumors suggested it should work.

Added 3 hours 49 minutes ago
Currently, there are 160 skills distributed among 25 skills (152 unique).

Which skills have been removed from the game:

1) Grave Chill
2) Protect Us All
3) Barbarian Luck
4) Ash's Blessing
5) Luck of the Road
6) Spoils of War
7) Treasury Management
8) Navigation
9) Death's March
10) Native Lands
11) Earthquake
12) Military Knowledge
13) Undead Protection from Magic (actually universal -20% damage from Chaos)
14) Exploding Corpses
15) Fire Protection
16) Magic Depletion
17) Secrets of Chaos
18) Exorcism
19) Banishment
20) Return to Void

I based my decisions on the following considerations (P.U.T.A.L.):
- Usefulness: removing questionable (too situational or weak) bonuses
- Uniqueness: avoiding the proliferation of many similar skills
- Thematic consistency: removing skills that don't match the theme of the skill/branch
- Relevance: the relevance of the skill directly in combat
- Ease: not overloading any particular branch with too many skills

Are there any of these skills that deserve to be brought back, and if so, where (in which skill, replacing which skill)? Perhaps some skills can be creatively reworked?
Are there any skills from MMH5.5 that you liked and would make sense to transfer here? Or are there any more logical/interesting connections between them?

You can view the current "skill wheel" in post 3 of this thread (on the first page).

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Registered: 10/30/2009

Posts: 41,374

#849 9/3/2017 12:48 PM UTC

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Hmm...
Grave Chill – it seemed like a pretty decent ability, suitable for "attack"... The downside was that it deals magic damage (or am I mistaken, and this doesn't matter?).
Protect All – what was concerning about this ability? Some players took it at the beginning of the game to get their share of goblins. Perhaps it could be reworked creatively and given as a bonus to suppressing summons, for example.
Luck of the Road – well, it's a specific ability, but it was good for secondary heroes.
Financial Management – and has troop gathering remained, or has it been reworked somehow? Because in the original, troop gathering was worse; you can't leave your main hero in a town every seventh day, and the bonus is minimal. It's okay for a secondary hero, just like Luck of the Road, but... it doesn't really stand out. Surprisingly, I considered Financial Management to be a good ability, even for the main hero. Fortunately, we don't have the third game here, and in general, there are more skill slots, and gold is always useful. And ultimately, everything is tied to the synergy of skills (which allows for progression).
Secrets of Chaos – it was a good thing, helping to get the necessary spells for some necromancers (well, that's how it was in the original).

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Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#850 9/3/2017 1:21 PM UTC

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"Ment"

"Grave Chill" -- it seemed like a pretty good ability, suitable for "attack"... The downside was that it deals magic damage (or am I mistaken, and this doesn't affect anything?).

But this was a defensive ability – it returned 5% of melee damage. If the ability returned at least 10%, it would be useful (but it can't be adjusted).

"Protect Us All" -- what was concerning about this ability? Some took it at the beginning of the game to get their share of goblins. Could it be creatively reworked and given as a buff to summoning, for example?

But there's already an ability for goblins, and it's a racial ability – "Goblin Support." Do we need two abilities that do the same thing? To make goblins the main offensive force (they are already very dangerous in WGE).

"Manage Treasury" -- and does troop recruitment remain, or has it been reworked?

Yes, regarding troop recruitment – see post #3 in the thread on the first page. The ability has been adapted specifically for combat heroes.

"Secrets of Chaos" -- it was a good ability, helping to get the right spells for a necromancer (well, that's how it was in the original).

I removed it because it has a bonus to knowledge, which is not thematic (there are no abilities in magic schools that directly enhance stats).

It's easy to see that, based on the principle:

- Relevance: the ability's direct relevance in combat

I removed all abilities that don't provide bonuses in combat. With one exception – the scouting/camouflage branch, which allows you to steal artifacts from the map, since this is also useful for combat heroes (artifacts provide a bonus in combat), given that artifacts appear immediately and don't need to be transported by caravans (which may not even make it).

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In reply to Nargott

Registered: 8/5/2013

Posts: 1,772

#851 9/3/2017 1:33 PM UTC

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Nargott

Any general increase in the number of troops leads to a gradual deterioration of the gameplay, because...

Well, let's start with the fact that I didn't suggest increasing the number of troops, precisely for the reasons you described. The suggestion to lower the level of the Knights is because having a Knight next to Angels and other semi-divine creatures seems strange - although for heroes, this absurdity in an army of humans is the norm, or maybe I'm just exaggerating the status of Tier 7 units.

... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...

Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#852 9/3/2017 3:09 PM UTC

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Knights are already significantly weakened, so the fact that they are formally Tier 6 doesn't mean much; their strength corresponds to Tier 5. Angels aren't that powerful; they are simply winged, holy warriors with flaming swords, 2-3 times larger than ordinary humans. However, I tried to differentiate Knights as much as possible from Dragons/Titans. In your opinion, what should the ratio between Knights and Dragons be? Currently, it's 6:1 (3:1 relative to Angels). In general, if we increase the number of Knights (and individually weaken them), we will have to proportionally increase (weaken) Monks, Swordsmen, Archers, and Militia, as they were initially balanced in relation to the Knights. This means that either humans will be individually weakened, becoming less effective fighters, or all other Factions from Tiers 1-5 will have to be proportionally weakened, and their numbers increased. Both options have drawbacks. By the way, I found out that the Kujin special ability won't work on Demonic Shamanesses, so we need to come up with something else (preferably related to Shamanesses). Update: I've added the unit tables to the second post of the thread (on the first page), although not all parameters have been calculated yet

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In reply to Nargott

Registered: 8/5/2013

Posts: 1,772

#853 9/3/2017 6:26 PM UTC

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Nargott

Knights are already significantly weakened, so the fact that they are formally Tier 6 doesn't mean much; their strength corresponds to Tier 5.

So, why do we need this formalism? Wouldn't it be better to move them to Tier 5 since they already match that tier?

Nargott

Angels aren't that great; they're just winged, holy warriors with flaming swords, 2-3 times larger than ordinary people. But I tried to differentiate knights as much as possible from dragons/titans.

What should the ratio between knights and dragons be, in your opinion? Currently, it's 6:1 (3:1 relative to an angel).

Based on the fact that 6 Knights = 1 Dragon and 3 Knights = 1 Angel, we get: 6 Knights = 2 Angels, and therefore 1 Dragon = 2 Angels, meaning angels are twice as weak as dragons, but their growth rate is also twice as high?

Nargott

In general, if the number of knights is increased (while individually weakening them), then the number of monks, swordsmen, archers, and militia will have to be increased (weakened) proportionally, since they were taken in a certain proportion to the knights. And this means that either people will be individually weakened, becoming less effective fighters, or all other factions in tiers 1-5 will have to be proportionally weakened, and their numbers increased. Which, in turn, leads to a general increase in numbers. That is, both options have drawbacks.

Well, yes, but then the quantitative and qualitative contrast with Tier 7 will increase, which, in my opinion, is good – in my understanding, 1-2 epic units similar to dragons should be against the backdrop of a couple of hundred ordinary soldiers, and not against the backdrop of 40

... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...

Registered: 10/30/2009

Posts: 41,374

#854 9/3/2017 6:39 PM UTC

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That was just a defensive skill – returning 5% of melee damage. If the skill returned at least 10%, it would be useful (but it can't be customized).

I confused it with Deadly Chill... Okay, I agree.

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In reply to SRD

Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#855 9/3/2017 7:01 PM UTC

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SRD

So, why do we need this formalism? Wouldn't it be better to move them to level 5 since they already meet the requirements?

Griffins also meet the requirements; I still doubt which of them should get Tier 6 (currently, it's the Knights). Both options have their pros and cons. Maybe we should launch a separate poll? :)
Who should be stronger, the Knight or the Griffin?

Based on the fact that 6R = 1D and 3R = 1A, we get: 6R = 2A, and from this, 1D = 2A, meaning angels are twice as weak as dragons, but their growth rate is also twice as high?

Yes.

SRD

Well, yes, but then the quantitative and qualitative contrast with Tier 7 will increase, which, in my opinion, is good - in my understanding, 1-2 epic units like dragons should be against a couple of hundred ordinary soldiers, not against 40.

So, I asked how many Knights you propose to have per 1 Dragon?

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In reply to Nargott

Registered: 8/5/2013

Posts: 1,772

#856 9/3/2017 7:16 PM UTC

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Nargott

Griffons also fit well; I'm still unsure which of them should get Tier 6 (currently, it's Knights). Both options have their pros and cons. Maybe we should run a separate poll? :)
Who should be stronger, the Knight or the Griffon?

I voted for the Griffon.

Nargott

Well, I asked how many Knights you propose to have per 1 Dragon.

Currently, there are 6, which is clearly better than 2 in the original. If we increase the difference too much, it might become absurd. I don't think we need more than 10. Also, in that message, I was primarily talking about monks/priests/druids and similar units compared to pure fighters. But again, I'm probably not looking at these units correctly. Here, they are more like acolytes of their religion – kind of like fanatical members of a church dedicated to a particular god, rather than archbishops or other prominent figures.

... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...

Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#857 9/3/2017 7:43 PM UTC

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Currently, the stats work as follows: - If a Knight is dismounted, they become a fighter equivalent to a heavily armored unit. - If a Paladin is dismounted, they become a fighter equivalent to a monk. - In melee combat, a monk is roughly equal to a heavily armored unit (slightly stronger due to the ability to shoot and cast spells). - If the movement of Knights/Paladins is completely blocked, preventing them from gaining any momentum, it is equivalent to dismounting them in the game. Therefore, what a horse gives to a Knight: - Mobility - The ability to increase damage up to 6-7 times with momentum, by adding +1 ton (the weight of the horse) to the attack power.

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In reply to Nargott

Registered: 8/5/2013

Posts: 1,772

#858 9/3/2017 8:06 PM UTC

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I looked at the new skill tree – I agree with many of the changes: 1) Hellfire has been moved back – that’s right – I never liked the idea of moving it to the Warlocks – I think it appeared because Dungeon didn’t have many unique racial skills. It’s still necessary to somehow reflect the connection between demons and fire (the damage is fire-based, as far as I remember, and not just named that way – fire resistance works, I think) and these perks consume mana – for a Warlock with low knowledge, this is not as relevant as for a demon. 2) Twilight has been moved to Counterspell – I did the same – it’s illogical to have Twilight only in Darkness or only in Light, and humans are the only ones inclined to this pair of light and darkness.

Added 5 minutes ago
A small digression: when we compare a Knight and a Dragon, I always remember a scene from Game of Thrones, when Jaime rode on horseback to meet Drogon:D – it’s like an elephant and a mouse.

... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...

Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#859 9/3/2017 9:38 PM UTC

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In Game of Thrones, the dragons now have wingspans of around 60 meters. I estimate their weight to be 15-20 tons, or even more. In general, the dragons there are incredibly expensive and not very efficient. For one small dragon, they offered 8,000 "elite" infantry (ragged soldiers with shields). And in a battle against it, they deployed almost 20 archers for a single volley. In short, we haven't seen an epic scene of a dragon being defeated by 8,000 infantry yet, so it's hard to say how much a dragon of that size is "worth" there. A dragon from the previous season, when spears were thrown at it, and it carried a blonde woman to the heavens, is closer to the Heroes of Might and Magic size. Such a dragon could weigh around a ton (it's a pity that the exact dimensions were not specified, unlike in the latest season).

Added 40 minutes later
I reviewed the MMH5.5 wheel again and noted 3 interesting options:

1) Expanded trophies, additionally giving imps - could this be implemented after the Corpse Eater? (and in this form, return trophies to the game)

2) Fallen (Knight) - in occultism after Dark Ritual (instead of Darkness)?

3) For Dark Replenishment - give a fixed mana regeneration, not tied to knowledge (unlike Mysticism)? This would allow heroes with low knowledge to instantly restore all mana after each battle.

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In reply to Nargott

Registered: 8/5/2013

Posts: 1,772

#860 9/3/2017 10:25 PM UTC

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they weren't throwing spears at him in the previous season, but two seasons ago – he was small then, maybe he's good for about 6 Knights now, but he's still a bit small for that...

... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...

Registered: 5/9/2009

Posts: 1,592

#861 9/3/2017 10:37 PM UTC

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However, unlike the 60-meter giants, this one is more realistic. Here, a wingspan of 15-20 meters would be appropriate, which corresponds to my estimate for the dragons in Heroes.

In my opinion, this size is sufficient to consider it a dragon. If we want to make it larger, we would also have to enlarge the competitors – the titans (currently 3 times the height of a human, as depicted).
So, if we want epic battles, we should enlarge the dragons/titans and increase the number of smaller units (tier 1-5). The question is whether it is worth doing, because to reach a truly epic level, we need to increase the size by a factor of 100, and it is unlikely that one dragon will be enough to defeat an army. Currently, in the name of epic scale, units with less than 10k hit points are no longer considered troops, and medieval capitals suddenly grow to a million inhabitants.

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