"Newcomer-2014. Summer" — Tournament History online

5.0 (1 rating)

Tournament Ended

Overview Participants Reports

Announcement

Roger DAltavilla

6/7/2014 8:15 AM UTC

Auto-translated

tournament
"Новичок-2014. Summer"

Greetings to all fans of Heroes of Might and Magic 3, future participants, and supporters of the traditional "Новичок" tournament. And even if you are not a fan of Heroes :eek: , I still welcome you and invite you to the new season. I hope it will bring great games and discoveries of new players.
This is our traditional, already eleventh tournament for Новичок.
We do not have a precise and strict definition of who a "новичок" is. This tournament is for those
- who only recently realized that you can play the favorite old game Heroes online,
- who only recently found out that they are not the only ones who can easily beat computers and that things are not so simple with a real person,
- who recently started playing with more than one or two heroes and building chains...
We do not invite fathers and grandfathers, we do not want to see clones, and would a medal obtained in such a dubious way even have value for a strong player?
The main goal of the tournament is to get to know each other and gain experience in communication and gameplay.

Winners of past tournaments:
"Новичок-2014. Winter" - Aiwe
"Новичок-2013. Summer" - The_
"Новичок-2013. Winter" - высокий
"Новичок-2012. Summer" - twaryna
"Новичок-2012. Winter" - 7z
"Новичок-2011. Summer" - Sky Pioneer
"Новичок-2011. Winter" - Sevensan
"Новичок-2010. Summer" - тенью бездомной
"Новичок-2010. Winter" - Сатир
"Новичок-2009. Summer" - Erdem

Participant Requirements:
1. registration on the HW forum between June 1 2013 and June 6 2014;
2. total experience playing HoMM3 online - no more than 1 year; long breaks in play are discussed individually;
3. absence of strong results in tournaments on HW and other resources (specifically, 1-3 places in previous "Новичок" tournaments or any other tournament, reaching the final stages of major tournaments) - subject to the organizers' opinion;
4. participation prior to this tournament in no more than one "Новичок" tournament;
5. absence of forfeits or withdrawals in other tournaments;
6. availability of time and ability to play 1 game per week (consider the time zone) - priority playing times are considered 19-24 MSK on weekdays and 12-24 MSK on weekends;
7. at least 5 games on the HW forum (can be played before the participant list is approved) with different opponents and detailed reports - organizers need to ensure that you can technically play online and have an understanding of the rules of play on HeroesWorld. Tournament organizers Roger DAltavilla (IСQ 624681987), Iamsamstan (IСQ 435191039) can play with you if you cannot find an opponent;
8. players wishing to participate in the tournament agree to provide any additional information requested by the tournament judges;
9. players agree to the regulations and rules of the tournament;
10. players are required to closely follow all announcements from organizers in the tournament thread.

Organizers reserve the right to deny registration to any player without a public explanation of reasons.
Players who have an earlier or later registration on the forum but wish to play in the tournament may submit an application, which will be considered on an individual basis.

Submit applications in this thread. There is a Detailed instruction with pictures FAQ17 on the forum explaining how to do this.
You need to do the following:
1. Check if your ICQ number is entered in your profile; add it if it is missing.
If it is in your profile, a small green daisy - the ICQ symbol - is visible under the avatar. If not, follow the algorithm.
2. Leave an application in this thread. To do this, click the Sign up for tournament button located at the beginning of this thread and at the top of each page.
3. In the application, specify convenient times (days and hours) for playing and your time zone.
4. 2-3 days before the draw, you must contact the lead Roger DAltavilla (IСQ 624681987) to confirm participation. Players who disappear from the forum (no user activity for a week) will not be admitted to the draw.

Organizational Matters.
1. Leads - Roger DAltavilla (IСQ 624681987), Iamsamstan (IСQ 435191039). Judge - Pit for LM (ICQ 471401475).
2. The tournament is held according to the Rules of organization, conduct and participation in HOMM3 online tournaments.
3. Organizers will make changes to the rules and regulations during the tournament if necessary.
4. For each played game, participants must submit a detailed report and detailed confirmation in this thread. Only then is the game counted. All tournament reports must be written using the automatic report writing system: Detailed instruction with pictures FAQ18.
- To create a report, click the New report button located at the top of each page of the thread and fill in all necessary fields according to the template. After that, write your detailed comments on the game.
- To confirm a report, the second player must find the game report, click the Confirm report button and also write a detailed report.
- It is considered good tone to thank the opponent for the game.
5. All tournament games go into the HoMM3 HW Player Rating.
6. Technical results are assigned for games not played within the established timeframe.
7. Saves and password files for all games must be kept until the end of the tournament and presented upon first request by the leads, judges, or any member of the AC. Forgetting or losing a game password may serve as grounds for assigning a technical defeat in the game.
8. Disputed points, if any arise, are requested to be discussed off-forum. For resolution, you must contact the lead or judge in ICQ and provide daily saves, ICQ logs, and other necessary information.
The same's decision is based primarily on tournament rules. If a situation is not regulated by the rules, judges are guided by basic logic and gaming ethics.
9. The tournament winner will be awarded the "Winner of Tournament 'Новичок'" medal under their avatar:

Regulations.
To be determined later, depending on the number of registered participants. We expect a traditional scheme: group stage + team tournament + play-offs.
So, the number of participants has been determined. Clarifying the regulations:
Stage 1. 24 participants are divided into 4 groups of 6 people. A round-robin tournament is held in each group, where everyone plays everyone else once. 1 point is given for a win, 0.5 points for a draw, and zero for a loss. The 4 people with the best results advance from the group to the next stage. Result criteria by order of importance: 1) points earned, 2) Berger coefficient, 3) result of head-to-head meeting. If these criteria are insufficient, players will be offered a system of tie-breaker games. If that also fails, democratic judicial discretion will be applied.
Stage 2. Tournament of novices against veterans. NP vs LM More details in post №3
Stage 3. Play-off. Starts on August 11 2014. Conducted via an Olympic system with elimination after the second lost match. Each match in the upper bracket is played until two wins, and in the lower bracket until one win. Time limit for 1 game - 1 week. (The loser in the upper bracket moves to the lower bracket and continues playing there. The loser in the lower bracket is eliminated from the competition.)
For templates in the first game, the player listed first in the pair chooses first; their opponent chooses castles first. In the second game, you switch places. For the third game, you may toss a coin or ask the organizer.

Dates.
Registration - June 7 2014 - June 30 2014.
Approval of participant list - July 1-4 2014.
Group stage draw and tournament start - July 5 2014.
Time limit for one game - 1 week.

Rules.
1. Game version. The tournament is held on game version SoD 3.2(4.0) + HD mod + by mutual consent HW_rulez (for correct operation, the patch must be installed for both players).
2. The tournament is conducted according to the rules of online games in Heroes 3.
3. Restarts total 3 days ( 111+111+111 or 111+112 or 113).
4. In the initial stage of the tournament, games are played on template 2sm4d(3). In the final part of the tournament, the template is chosen by drawing from a list of 5 templates: 2sm4d(3), jebus Cross, Panic, 8mm6a (version without one-way paths), mini nostalgia.

In reply to Tofsla

Simon5760

8/26/2014 3:44 AM UTC

Auto-translated

Tofsla

On day 1 I get a normal stack of skeletons thanks to a prison, instantly expert Necromancy is learned and the necklace of +1 speed is taken, 2 Dragon Fly Hives are visible, I decide to play. Later I regretted this, because afterwards only 2 more Dragon Fly Hives were found, 1 Griffin Conservatory 1-tier, a couple of Pandora's Boxes for experience, and that's it. 1 Dragon Utopia was far off-road, 2 dragon spawns were found very late. The exit was on 124 with 350 bones, 23 swans, I saw that the opponent was already in the center and his stats had sharply increased, I gave up mentally. I breached ГО, there was a breastplate +4+4, and a Pandora's Box with Nagas on 8 bears, already more cheerful, but stats 9-14-7-7 vs the opponent's 24-15-15-15. And then it turns out he is sitting in the Castle with 2 mana for regeneration, while I just had enough mana for 1 oil. There are 8 Angels and 33 swans there, but you can't really maneuver under oil, gg) Thanks for the game.

I did everything perfectly, except for the last day.
thanks for the game

Здесь, в этой великой стране, твой член не становится длиннее, если у тебя есть автомат.

706769974

In reply to Roger DAltavilla

Pupa

8/26/2014 3:23 PM UTC

Auto-translated

In the second week, I easily defeated and lost to Dessy, gaining 15 levels, and had to level up a new hero. I gathered 5 Undead, and they all turned out to be weak, so I didn't quite make it to victory in the final.
Thanks for the game.

Pupa

Faction Сопряжение / Conflux

Start Hero Фиур / Fiur

Main Hero Рашка / Rashka

Поражение / Lose

skd

Faction Оплот / Rampart

Start Hero Кайри / Kyrre

Main Hero Гуннар / Gunnar

Map Template: Mini-Nostalgia
Game Length: 212 days
Game Date: 8/26/2014
Reported: 8/26/2014 3:23 PM

Pupa 1615 → 1592 -23 ↓

skd 1387 → 1410 +23 ↑

Rated Sep 28, 2022

Accepted by opponent on 8/26/2014 3:38 PM

In reply to Pupa

skd

8/26/2014 3:38 PM UTC

Auto-translated

I confirm. He made many mistakes. Gunnar leveled up perfectly. He defeated his opponent with the Red Ball and Shackles in the central treasure. There was a slight advantage in terms of creatures, which decided the outcome; the combat stats were roughly equal. Thank you for the game. Edit: I was playing with the blue color.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431

In reply to skd

Pit for LM

8/26/2014 8:50 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Let's summarize the "New Players" vs. "Legends and Myths" tournament, as the novice players who didn't play for the team have expressed no desire to continue.

Players SP_SkyLine, cbw, cost, and Sloth_D have been disqualified. On the other hand, several novice players requested to be allowed to play with the legends again to gain experience for participating in other tournaments, but I had to refuse them to ensure the objectivity of the results.

A total of 14 matches were played.
9 games took place on the Jebus Cross map, 2 games on Mini-Nostalgia and 8mm6a, and 1 game on 2sm4d(3).
The score of 9-5 in favor of the Legends doesn't seem convincing. Based on the results of the three tournaments, it's clear that the novices are getting better, while the Legends are getting older and weaker :smile42:

The following players won matches for the NP team:
Simon5760
Cincinnat
Rabe
H2SO4
LuckyF
Respect and congratulations! Well done! :smile20:

The following players earned points for the LM team:
twaryna - 3 points
Maretti - 2 points
Gomunguls - 2 points
KobRa_RR and Pit for LM - 1 point each.
Thank you for participating! :smile02:

It's a pity that our novices didn't show interest in playing with Satyr and Medium; they are excellent players with a vast and successful track record in the most prestigious tournaments, including Interportal ones.

I hope that this tournament was useful for the players on the NP team, and I wish our novices good luck in other tournaments.

In reply to Pit for LM

Rabe

8/27/2014 5:02 AM UTC

Auto-translated

I think the idea of beginners playing against legends is very sound in itself. But in fact, the analysis of the game is more important than victory or defeat.
Of course, an opened save file clarifies some things, and with proper attention, LM can point out a lot. BUT:
1. It is difficult to objectively assess the situation from a save file
2. The principle of tutoring is one teacher and one student
3. What is there to discuss if you got crushed in cons/Dragon Utopia/ГО?
Hence the proposal:
Instead of occupying a strong player's time with the mere fact of playing (well, they won? well, they lost? does one game prove anything?), give them the opportunity to comment on the game in real-time.
For example, I will play against another beginner, and we will be commented on by renowned players, who will point out shortcomings, miscalculations, blatant fakes, and other small or large details.
In this way, the two playing participants will play more attentively and gain stream experience + they can later watch their own game and listen to direct comments. And the rest of the audience (including the remaining dozen beginners) will gather a wealth of useful information. Moreover, games could be distributed by templates.
As a result, beyond the actual fact of training beginners, we will get:
a. A visual aid with analysis based on templates
b. A significant number of viewers
c. Increased interest in the game among the beginners themselves (instead of "what's the point of playing him if I'll lose anyway? It's Gomungulus!")
So to speak, open a school of mastery! :)

"Одержать сто побед в ста битвах — это не вершина воинского искусства. Повергнуть врага без сражения — вот вершина.
"Сущность войны — обман. Искусный должен изображать неумелость. При готовности атаковать демонстрируй подчинение. Когда ты близок — кажись далёким, но когда ты очень далеко — притворись, будто ты рядом."

In reply to Rabe

Iamsamstan

8/27/2014 7:44 AM UTC

Auto-translated

Rabe

I think the idea of beginners playing against legends is very sound in itself. But in fact, the analysis of the game is more important than victory or defeat.
Of course, an opened save file clarifies some things, and with proper attention, LM can point out a lot. BUT:
1. It's difficult to objectively assess the situation from a save file
2. The principle of tutoring - one teacher and one student
3. What is there to discuss if you got crushed in cons/Dragon Utopia/ГО?
Hence the proposal:
Instead of occupying a strong player with the mere fact of playing (well, did they win? did they lose? is one game an indicator?), we could give them the opportunity to commentate on the game in real-time.
For example, I would play against another beginner, and renowned players would commentate on us, pointing out flaws, miscalculations, own goals, and other small or large details.
In this way, the two playing will be more attentive and gain stream experience + they can later watch their game and listen to direct comments. And the rest of the audience (including the remaining dozen beginners) will learn a lot of useful things. Moreover, games could be distributed by templates.
As a result, besides the actual training of beginners, we would get:
a. A visual aid with analysis based on templates
b. A significant number of viewers
c. Increased interest in the game among the beginners themselves (instead of "what's the point of playing him if I'll lose anyway? It's Gomu-gulus!")
A school of mastery, so to speak! :)

This topic has been brought up before, and it was decided that it's easier for a strong player to play than to commentate) IMHO it would still be better to return it to how it was in the 1st beginner event with this tournament, i.e., beat a "father" - move up the table) The motivation would have been stronger then)

435-191-039
Discord Iamsamstan#6087

In reply to Iamsamstan

Rabe

8/27/2014 8:04 AM UTC

Auto-translated

Iamsamstan

This topic has already been discussed, and it was decided that it's easier for a strong player to play than to comment. IMO, it would be better to revert to how it was in the first iteration of this tournament, i.e., beat a stronger player, and you move up in the rankings. The motivation would be stronger then.

Well, I don't know. So, I beat a stronger player (Kobra), and so what? It didn't give me any extraordinary pleasure, and my self-esteem didn't increase at all. My skill level didn't really improve either.
"I objectively understand that I play worse and want to learn" - I'm sure that the vast majority of beginners think the same way. That is, the victory itself (as well as the defeat) does not correspond to the task.
In this case, a more informative situation would be with an open map - so that the opponent can see your moves and immediately resolve everything without delay... But I think there will be 0.5 "Kobra" who will agree to spend their time like that.
In the case of commentary, there are options (which may not have been considered before):
1. Comment not online, but on a pre-recorded game. It still happens in real-time, but it's easier for a strong player to find the time.
In this case, by the way, cases of "I lost" will be excluded, and the game will already be restarted.
That is, I played with Tofslay, neither of us lost, the situation was normal for both, we met, ran around/fought, and GG. There is something to comment on and analyze.
2. In a real-time stream, useful advice and analysis of strategies and restarts would be helpful. Because both I and many other beginners are already losing at this stage.
3. In fact, it will be a training session not for the players, but on them. All other beginners (who are interested) will ask questions online, argue, and LM will have to beautifully explain everything to everyone without the risk of "losing to a beginner." Pure altruism:)

In reply to Rabe

KobRa_RR

8/27/2014 11:09 AM UTC

Auto-translated

Rabe

I don't know) So I beat Cobra, and what? It didn't give me some incredible pleasure, and my self-esteem didn't increase at all. My skill level didn't really improve either.
"I objectively understand that I play worse and want to learn" - I'm sure that the vast majority of beginners think the same way. That is, the victory itself (as well as the defeat) does not correspond to the task.
In this case, a more informative situation would be with an open map - so that the opponent can see your moves and immediately resolve everything without delay... But I think there will be 0.5 Cobras who will agree to spend their time like that.
In the case of commentary, there are options (which may not have been considered before):
1. Comment on a recorded game, not online. This also happens in real time, but it is easier for a strong player to find time.
In this case, by the way, cases of "I lost" will be excluded, and the game will already be restarted.
That is, I played with Tofslay, neither of us lost, the situation is normal for both, we met, ran around/fought, and GG. There is something to comment on and analyze.
2. In a real stream, advice and analysis of turns and restarts will be useful. Because both I and many other beginners lose at this stage.
3. In fact, it will be a training session not for those who are playing, but for them. All other beginners (who are interested) will ask questions online, argue, and LM will actually have to beautifully explain everything to everyone without the risk of "losing to a beginner." Pure altruism:)

Well, we played with Tatiana in such a way that she watched my moves in Might and Magic 6, and I watched hers, that is, with mutual streaming and commentary. :)

And regarding our game on CM, consider that you played a single-player game against the computer :D You still need to learn not against the single-player mode, but against a wide range of opponents, for this you need to play more or less balanced games... For example, a mirror match is an ideal indicator of the combined luck and skill of the opponent, because the starting situations for both opponents are practically identical. The only difference is the set of heroes, which can theoretically be fixed. We are waiting for the mirror match to appear in the editor, and preferably not in a single template interpretation (it's like CM now)....

In reply to Pit for LM

Pit for LM

8/27/2014 11:35 AM UTC

Auto-translated

Pit for LM

Players SP_SkyLine, cbw, cost and Sloth_D have been disqualified.

According to new information, SP_SkyLine was playing with a Satyr on his save.
So the results were premature.
Let's wait until the match is over.

A year ago, we discussed the first such tournament. Here, starting from /topic/at/679572/,
you can read about it.

Rabe

It would be better not to occupy a strong player just by having him play (so what if he wins or loses? One game isn't very telling), but rather give him the opportunity to comment on the game in real time.

Yes, Sam correctly pointed out that this topic has already been raised. Undoubtedly, this would be even more useful.
The responses were:

HellLighT

I highly doubt that representatives of LM will agree to spend their time on something like this, except in rare cases...
...Playing is one thing; every Heroes player is used to it. But watching an uninteresting game played by someone else and unfamiliar, and paying close attention so as to point out mistakes and offer advice – that’s a completely different matter.

Pit for LM

Here I need to say (in addition to what HellLighT wrote) that players who are good at Heroes are also quite successful in реальной жизни. Many have interesting jobs, their own companies, families… There are fathers, and even some with multiple children. They have things going on in their lives. Therefore, most of these people prefer participating over observing. Personally, I wouldn't take on organizing such a tournament primarily because I don't even know which of the experienced players would agree to do it. And I myself wouldn't want to "manage" via Skype; the time limit won't allow me to give detailed advice, and there isn't much point in saying just a few words. I think it would be more useful to analyze a match after the game and then work independently on correcting mistakes.

And I am very grateful to all the LM players for responding to my requests and setting aside their time for our tournament.

In reply to Pit for LM

skd

8/27/2014 2:05 PM UTC

Auto-translated

What prevents you from watching replays of good players, skipping the opponent's turns? Some even provide commentary. Observing their gameplay, you can see that they also make mistakes. Watch if you have time, and try not to make the same mistakes in the future, and remember good moves.
Why would someone spend a lot of time commenting on the game of weak players? (relatively speaking, of course).
There's also another option: during a joint stream in the final stages of tournaments (including 2v2), upload all the replays and edit the game turn by turn. A replay might last, for example, 7 hours in total, and that's just from one player. But during editing, the turns of two players can be fit into 4 hours. In addition, you can speed up or cut out easy battles, shorten restarts if there are obvious reasons, and as a result, experienced players might be able to comment on such an edited replay, maybe even together with the players who participated.
Spending 3 hours watching a game turn by turn or spending 7+ hours, doing who knows what in between the players' turns – I think there's a difference.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431

In reply to Pupa

H2SO4

8/27/2014 10:13 PM UTC

I took all restarts, opp just 2 of them.

the good: a very rich respawn with 3 cons , few behe dwells (took just 2 of them), dungeon , nice utopia ( 2) right next to my main with earth book , shield +12, +4 hat and +5 stick. The key factor was pandora for 80! (yes, that's right) goblins at 112

the bad: lot of blocks on roads, some of them should be illegal ( ex: 7 sultans efreet guard Cape of Conjuring, seriously?...); hard to level up without pandora for experience, at 117 Crag was level 6;

huge mistake at 124 when I went in dung to double up mana but I didn't, even more, I bought Crag in center town with 7 mana, thankfully opponent wasn't interested in contact.

ggwp.thx

p.s. thanks for compliments and good luck in future games

icq: 665973202

H2SO4

Faction Цитадель / Stronghold

Start Hero Крег Хак / Crag Hack

Main Hero Крег Хак / Crag Hack

Победа / Def

R@sIM

Faction Замок / Castle

Start Hero Кейтлин / Caitlin

Main Hero Гурниссон / Gurnisson

Map Template: Jebus Cross
Game Length: 127 days
Game Date: 8/27/2014
Reported: 8/27/2014 10:14 PM

H2SO4 1632 → 1639 +7 ↑

R@sIM 1425 → 1418 -7 ↓

Rated Sep 28, 2022

Accepted by opponent on 8/28/2014 4:28 AM

In reply to H2SO4

R@sIM

8/28/2014 4:28 AM UTC

H2SO4

I took all restarts, opp just 2 of them.

the good: a very rich respawn with 3 cons , few behe dwells (took just 2 of them), dungeon , nice utopia ( 2) right next to my main with earth book , shield +12, +4 hat and +5 stick. The key factor was pandora for 80! (yes, that's right) goblins at 112

the bad: lot of blocks on roads, some of them should be illegal ( ex: 7 sultans efreet guard Cape of Conjuring, seriously?...); hard to level up without pandora for experience, at 117 Crag was level 6;

huge mistake at 124 when I went in dung to double up mana but I didn't, even more, I bought Crag in center town with 7 mana, thankfully opponent wasn't interested in contact.

ggwp.thx

p.s. thanks for compliments and good luck in future games

I crab! thank you for playing!:D

In reply to skd

Rabe

8/28/2014 4:55 AM UTC

Auto-translated

skd

What prevents you from watching replays of good players, skipping the opponent's turns? Some even provide commentary. Observing their gameplay, you can see that they also make mistakes. Watch if you have time, and try not to make the same mistakes in the future, and remember good moves.
Why would someone spend a lot of time commenting on the game of weak players? (relatively speaking, of course).

Everything in life goes through the filter of "put yourself in their shoes." And it is based on this that I brought up what turned out to be an old topic.
And I, imagining that I am a mega-super-unbeatable player, would wonder if I should play 8v8 with a newbie or comment on their game with another newbie.
The game will take at least 4 hours anyway and will most likely be uninteresting.
Here's an example from life - don't throw stones:
The kids decided to play basketball and asked you to teach them. They already make shots, know the rules, and can basically play more or less well. You agreed. And now you have a choice: join one of the teams and explain things on the fly, while clearly not playing at full strength; or act as a coach, analyzing and explaining everything during the game between two children's teams?

In reply to Pupa

Сатир

8/28/2014 9:39 AM UTC

Auto-translated

I didn't play well, but I managed to win.
Thank you for the game.

Не бійся коли ти один, бійся коли ти нуль.

484800548

Сатир

Faction Крепость / Fortress

Start Hero Тазар / Tazar

Main Hero Кайри / Kyrre

Победа / Def

SP_SkyLine

Faction Замок / Castle

Start Hero Валеска / Valeska

Main Hero Стракер / Straker

Map Template: 8mm6a
Game Length: 212 days
Game Date: 8/28/2014
Reported: 8/28/2014 9:39 AM

Сатир 1807 → 1808 +1 ↑

SP_SkyLine 1415 → 1414 -1 ↓

Rated Sep 28, 2022

Accepted by opponent on 8/28/2014 9:56 AM

In reply to Сатир

SP_SkyLine

8/28/2014 9:56 AM UTC

Auto-translated

Satyr

Poor play on my part, but managed to pull it off.
Thanks for the game.

First game on a large map:) It went decently, 2 Necropolis towns, enough gold, was leveling Straker, who caught earth magic right away. Until week 3 everything was fine, I was stockpiling bones, barely losing any meat, though I only had 1 Dragon Fly Hive and 1 conservatory each, but I was ahead in meat thanks to skeletons. In the first Pandora's Box I got Dimension Door, though the main hero took a very long time to learn Wisdom. But starting from the middle of week 3, failures began — either chains wouldn't connect, or I inexplicably marched Straker with full army for 3 days to Satyr's starting Castle :confused: I took 2 Dragon Utopias, stats were decent, but control was lacking, though I managed to learn Wisdom with difficulty. Straker didn't have Logistics, and on medium roads without Logistics on Horde+Ultimate, it seems impossible to play at all)) By that point, Satyr apparently had full control, and he even switched to Kyrre, and within a few days easily outpowered me.

Thanks for the game and the experience!

В этом мире есть только две действительно бесконечные вещи - вселенная и глупость, при чем на счет первой я не уверен...©
icq 667277468