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Posts from Heroes of Might & Magic: Olden Era - Обсуждение

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Offline Драккошка
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#560
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In general, the separation of speed and initiative is such a great and obvious solution that I'm surprised it wasn't done sooner. In King's Bounty, it works perfectly. There are elven archers with extremely high initiative and low speed, who go first but are easily blocked and can't run away very far. There are dwarven droid-mechanics with lower initiative, but they can easily kite half of the units. But in the second Heroes game, the same elven archers could easily kite everyone because the developers gave them super high speed so they would go first, and it looked stupid. In the sixth game, they finally made a normal split between initiative and speed, but it would be even better if they made the games themselves normal.
And the initiative scale in the fifth game is just a disaster; I never learned how to navigate it. It feels like the units are placed in some random order. And it's very annoying (not) to wait for the turn of some ents or rakshasas when the battle is already in full swing and all the normal units have already gone five times.
А, вот почему.

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Offline Mооnst@r
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#562
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AstralLein
In Heroes of Might and Magic V, a random number is added to the initiative in battle, so yes, there is randomness there.
They should have done the same in Heroes of Might and Magic: Olden Era. Randomness in initiative gives any creature with the same initiative a chance to go first. But no, they had to add speed as well. This is an obvious thing that they don't understand.
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Offline Драккошка
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#563
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You are currently criticizing one of the three and a half decent decisions made in Olden Era...
А, вот почему.

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Offline Mооnst@r
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#564
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Isn't the initiative mechanic pointless? It's a completely useless feature. If an enemy creature has the same initiative but lower speed, it will never be able to move before a creature with the same initiative but higher speed. What's the point of initiative then? If speed is equal, why not add attack as well? And then something else, and something else... We need to add a random element to initiative when creatures have the same initiative; then everyone will have a chance. That's balance.
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Offline Ment
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#565
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It's not immediately clear to me that this is a better approach... There's also the approach used in the third game, where, with equal speed, the turn order of creatures is determined by their position, which is more deterministic. But in the fifth game, the random spread is quite large, and it's not just equal initiative that matters, which makes the system unintuitive (although, to be honest, I preferred the initiative scale instead of turns).
 

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Offline Mооnst@r
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#566
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Precisely when the initiative is the same. And not when one has 8, the other has 10, but the one with 8 goes first. That's not necessary.

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Ment
It's not obvious to me that this is better...
Of course, it's better to multiply what already exists without necessity, so that one parameter is tied to ten others and, in fact, no longer affects what it was introduced for, and there are no chances for the opponent.
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Offline Ment
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#567
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Of course, it's better to unnecessarily multiply existing elements so that one parameter is tied to ten others and, in reality, no longer affects what it was introduced for, and there are no chances for the opponent.
One parameter influencing ten others according to clear algorithms, or ten other parameters initially, some of which are random, some are hidden, and without the help of fans, would not even be properly documented...

I wrote this now, and it occurred to me that Heroes 5 might have been developed by quantum mechanics enthusiasts. 🤔
 

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Offline Mооnst@r
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#568
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Ment, if two creatures have the same initiative and speed, what determines which one goes first? Is it just another workaround? Then what's the point of initiative and speed? What a brilliant mechanic in Olden Era! How do heroes manage without speed then? Apparently, that third "magical workaround" solves it.
You're either trolling me, or you genuinely believe in "one of three not-so-great solutions." I'm even curious, what are the other two? If one of them isn't the name of the game without numbering, then it's all wrong.
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Offline Ment
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#569
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Ment, if two creatures have the same initiative and speed, what determines which one goes first? Is it just another workaround? Then what's the point of initiative and speed? What a brilliant mechanic from the olden era! How do heroes manage without speed then? Apparently, that third "magic workaround" solves it.
Well, I honestly said that I like the approach in the third game more, where there's only one parameter, and in case of a tie, it's determined by position. It's not that the olden era did it right; it's that in Heroes, the turn order is a traditional point of contention, and it has never been fundamentally better than it is now. In the third game, there was a good, simple algorithm, but speed was too overpowered. It gave you the first turn, allowed you to move faster on the battlefield, and move faster on the map. In the end, no other parameter was as important or even close. In the fifth game, they did well by having initiative, but without rounds of combat. However, I don't really like the hidden parameters and the overall balance. The fact that there's additional tactical depth with different creatures having different turn frequencies seemed very pleasant to me. Well, in the olden era, there are workarounds in some specific cases... So what? For Heroes, it's even better than average. Just take another look at this and see for yourself.
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After taking the required percentage of damage, it is processed by a function that modifies the damage from magic. That is, the damage from the Fire Shield is affected by: the hero having the Sphere of Fire, a secondary skill, and a magic specialization; ignoring part of the damage by Stone, Steel, Gold, and Diamond Golems; and the presence of a stack of the Fire Protection spell applied to the target receiving damage from the Fire Shield. At the same time, everything that affects the chance of casting the spell: resistances, immunities, cursed land, antimagic garrison, artifacts that prevent casting - does not affect the damage received from the fire shield. The only exception is that the fire shield does not affect creatures with fire immunity (Ifrits, Fire Elementals, Firebirds, and improved versions of these creatures).
smile04 There's a ton of this kind of nonsense in every game. That's why I don't see any reason to focus only on the fact that in the olden era, speed is also a bit like initiative. It's a minor thing to me... ---- Or here's another masterpiece.
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The chances of a Fairy Dragon casting one or another spell in the original game are:
  • Ice Bolt: 16/153
  • Lightning Bolt: 17/153
  • Fireball: 21/153
  • Magic Arrow: 15/153
  • Ice Ring: 20/153
  • Chain Lightning: 19/153
  • Meteor Shower: 23/153
  • Inferno: 22/153
It's easy to see that the spell IDs are used as probabilities. This is a bug in the game - the correct probabilities are programmed, but they are not used. The bug has been fixed in HD+.
smile04smile04smile04
 

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Offline Mооnst@r
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#570
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Ment
Well, in the Olden Era, sometimes workarounds appear in certain cases... But so what? For Heroes, it's even better than average.

Therefore, I don't see a reason to focus solely on the fact that in the Olden Era, speed is also somewhat of an initiative. In my opinion, these are minor details...
Here, it's not just in some cases, but completely out of the blue. With this approach, there can be no talk of balance or esports. The mechanics, at its core, should be simple and intuitive.
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Offline AstralLein
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#571
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Both systems, the third and fifth installments, are well-known subjects of criticism and are not considered successful. In the third game, there's a total imbalance with acceleration and deceleration, plus units that move across half the battlefield. In the fifth game, there's monstrous randomness, plus even more bullying of creatures with low initiative. The system with initiative, speed, and rounds simultaneously appeared in Heroes 6 and has been in all Homm-like games since then. It works simply: the one with the highest initiative goes first, but if the stat is equal, then either speed or the slot number in the army decides. This is so much simpler than the fifth game's system that I don't understand the complaints. It actually contributes to balance to a greater extent. And also... no one calculates initiative in PvP. In the third game, the first speed is important, and it's achieved with specific units. And in the fifth game, there are several artifacts that affect initiative, and expecting the opponent to have strictly default values is a very dubious idea, plus there's a range. And both games have an initiative scale, so there's no point in thinking about initiative. Yes, the third game too. Because competitive third-game play is HotA. Why is solo speed at the top of the list of shortcomings of the third game, and why is it not needed by anyone except discerning connoisseurs? It becomes obvious when you watch a couple of matches. The same is true for the fifth game. The OE system is already a standard, and it's not new. If the third game's system were implemented, that would be a disaster.
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Offline Mооnst@r
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#572
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AstralLein
A system with initiative, speed, and rounds simultaneously appeared in Heroes 6 and has been in all the Homm-like games I know since then. It works simply: the one with the highest initiative goes first, but if the stat is equal, then either speed or the slot number in the army decides. This is so much simpler than the system in the fifth game that I don't understand the complaints at all. It actually contributes more to balance.
Simpler is when, with the same initiative, a "fixed random" triggers in one direction or another, and that unit goes first. This gives all creatures with equal initiative, but absolutely different other parameters, a chance to go first. And not when another parameter starts to decide for the initiative, and then another one, and creatures with the same initiative, but with low other parameters or "the wrong slot," have no chance to go first. It's as balanced as it gets. You're reading selectively.
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Offline AstralLein
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#573
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Let's say there's a hypothetical black dragon with 10 ice resistance and 10 speed, and a red dragon with 9 in both stats. The opponent equips the red dragon with a ring that adds +1 to ice resistance. Both dragons now have 10 ice resistance. However, the black dragon still flies further. Logically, it should move first, right? Some people just look at the mechanics through the lens of their dislike for Overlord Edition (OE). If OE introduced a turn order scale, they would criticize it just as hardcore fans of Heroes of Might and Magic III did with a certain patch in Heroes of Might and Magic IV. Of course, instead of the speed stat, you could tie the turn order to randomness... but then luck would become a deciding factor, which is even less suitable for esports. And calculating the turn order based on the slot in the army is a mechanic from Heroes of Might and Magic III. It's very helpful for managing individual units, you know. There's also a funny quirk in that game: when you kill one stack of a uniform creature, and your unit was supposed to move next, instead, the second stack of the same uniform creature from the opponent takes the position on the turn order scale and moves first.
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"Путь некроманта"
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Offline Mооnst@r
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#574
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AstralLein
There's a hypothetical black dragon with 10 initiative and 10 speed. And there's a red one with nines. The opponent put a ring on the red one that gives +1 initiative. Both the black and red dragons have 10 initiative. But the black one still flies further. Logically, shouldn't it move first?

No. Why should it move first just because it has more speed? Maybe the red one should move first because it's red or because it has heartburn? Initiative should be determined by a random roll, not by other parameters. Or are you not familiar with logic?
AstralLein
You're just looking at the mechanics through the lens of your hatred for Overlord. If Overlord had its own initiative queue, you'd criticize it too, just like the hardcore fans of Heroes III did with a certain patch.

Leave the hatred out of it. I don't like a lot of things, but there's no hatred. And it's better not to bring up "what if" scenarios, because we'll never know, but you can come up with anything. Get a grip and stop deflecting.
AstralLein
Of course, you could tie initiative to a random number instead of the speed stat... but then luck would start to play a role, and that's even less esports-friendly.

Randomness in initiative will give everyone an equal chance. That's much more esports-friendly than always being at a disadvantage.
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