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Posts from Harmony - Troop Symmetry

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Offline SRD
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#561
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8 increase per week
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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Offline Nargott
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#562
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The advice is simple: adjust the stats. You don't have a balance mod; you have a creative project. Therefore, quantitative balance is secondary (you don't need to worry about precise numbers, at least until you gather a large enough fan base). It's more important to present the idea well and demonstrate a quality balance (interesting combinations, fundamentally different specializations). The calculations can be rough; the criterion for success is the desire to try out both upgrade tiers. For example, take all the archers in this game and think about racial distinctions (e.g., human archers have high damage and low initiative, elven archers have high initiative but low HP and very weak melee combat, etc.). This will make the units more distinctive and memorable. This is what is called a quality balance. Regarding dancers and archers, you don't necessarily have to make archers weaker (that would be debatable). You can make the creatures roughly equal, but with a lower growth rate for dancers. This way, they are rarer, and ranged attacks become more dominant (archers are a stronger unit). A similar situation exists in the original game with minotaurs and furies.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
Сайт проекта - пока неактивен
Автор Асимметричных шахмат
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Offline kiko
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#563
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Nargott

Take, for example, all the archers in this game, and think about racial characteristics (e.g., human archers have high damage and low initiative, elven archers have high initiative but low HP + very weak melee combat, etc.). This will make the units more distinctive and memorable.
I also believe that this approach is the most interesting. How about this: do elven archers gain "Ethereal" on their own territory?
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Offline Dyrman
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#564
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Nargott

Take, for example, all the ranged units in this game, and think about the racial characteristics (for example, human ranged units have high damage and low initiative, elven ranged units have high initiative but low HP + very weak melee combat, etc.). This will make the units more distinctive and memorable. This is what is called a quality balance.
The developers tried to do this, and there is nothing new here.

The balance can be adjusted using various methods. You can do it your own way, or you can follow some other idea, and both options will be good. Some players only see one option due to the subjectivity of their thinking, which prevents them from perceiving other people's ideas, and therefore only one narrow option for solving the problem, then they go through their own mistakes and see the truly correct other one - again, only one. But there are many such options.

The problem here is also that the developers gave the units some logical meaning, which puts the modder in certain frameworks, when in terms of gameplay, going beyond these frameworks looks much better.

If I were making this project, or something similar (and I have a lot of experience in Modding), I would take into account the fact that the majority is usually wrong (a very good tautology). It's simple to prove: in the first vote, one majority prevailed, in the second vote, another majority. But only those who voted for both winners at once are right, and these people may not be the majority (and even in this case, considering both samples, completely different options could have won). In addition, players of different levels vote. What if there are even more such votes?

For me, creativity in terms of specific gameplay (less systemic to the whole game) is the highest priority. The General system is useful for balance, but sometimes it suffers in terms of the game's interesting aspects (for example, not considering breakthroughs as an important element of the game, but only their presence for obtaining resources).

But here again there is a catch: when achieving a good creative-balance, the logic of the original components that the developers laid down may change, as well as many units, and their models (according to the logic).

Therefore, it is more important to understand what we want: to equalize the upgrades, which is unlikely to take long, or to engage in a long game between forum users and our own consciousness. The author is the God of creation. It is up to him to decide what will happen, and we can only nitpick and evaluate, which, of course, can also influence the result, and may even be better, but each artist has his own vision.

In addition to this topic, this post is also relevant to the neighboring one.)
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Мир надо уничтожить... Чтобы создать свой...
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Offline Nargott
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#565
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Dyrman
The developers were trying to achieve this, there's nothing new here.
Not everywhere. Moreover, if you don't explicitly set this as a goal, you can worsen, rather than improve, the result, especially when making significant changes to stats.

(I understand that the rest of the post mainly refers to the adjacent topic)
Some players only see one option due to the subjectivity of their thinking, which prevents them from perceiving other people's ideas, and therefore only one narrow solution to the problem. Then they go through their own trials and see the truly correct other solution - again, only one. But there are many such options.
Come on, I can offer dozens of different options, but when you see many solutions at once, it's necessary to understand why some of them are better suited to the goal than others. Why it's better to go directly to the goal, rather than zigzagging.
But here's the catch again: when achieving a good creative-balance, the logic of the original components, which the developers laid down, may change, as well as many units and their models (according to the logic).

Therefore, it's more important to understand what we want: to equalize the upgrades, which is unlikely to take long, or to engage in a long game between forum users and our own minds. The author is the God of creation. He decides how it will be, and we only criticize and evaluate, which, of course, can also influence the result, and may even be better, but each artist has their own vision.
For anyone familiar with my mod, it should be clear that I am not a defender of the original balance and, in many aspects, I criticize it. But if you have set a very specific task - to equalize the upgrades, then you should focus on this, and not come up with something random. And if you really want creativity, it's important to understand what exactly you are aiming for (and not just equalization), as well as that it's foolish to approach this "without fanaticism." Anyone with 2 things can take a good photograph (rebalance): a high-quality camera (experience, common sense) and a beautiful landscape (a successful game), but unfortunately, you can't just slap together a good independent painting (global creativity) on the fly; you need to seriously invest in the process and training, have a lot of time, and enjoy the process. In short, there are no good artists without fanaticism.
"kiko"
I also believe that this approach is the most interesting.
What do you think: do elven archers get "Invisibility" on their own territory?
This is technically very difficult (using a different executable, replacing units each time, scripts), and it's not a given that such efforts will be rewarded.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
Сайт проекта - пока неактивен
Автор Асимметричных шахмат
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Offline SRD
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#566
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Updated the table in the first post.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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Offline SRD
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#567
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Due to the lack of suitable female models for the Sylvan faction, Anwen, Dirael, and Ilfina will be replaced with male heroes – in my opinion, this is better than the alternative.
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... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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Offline Ment
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#568
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Ah, they removed the most interesting heroes...
 

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Offline SRD
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#569
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So, here's the first one – a mod that replaces Dyraell with a new hero with a new specialization (I looked through the NHF mod while creating it – thanks to Dyrman).
I took the hero's name from the world of Arda – I found a detailed guide on how to create Elvish names based on the works of J.R.R. Tolkien.
There are two icons for Tieru in the game; one is used in the "Days of Flame" scenario, and the other is not used. For now, the new hero has this one, but I might change it later.
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... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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Offline kiko
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Posts: 91
#570
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SRD
Updated the table in the first post.
I will share my opinion (on the most important points):

Elves

Archers: remove "maneuvering".
(Not to mention that two shots take more time, and when you also have to maneuver...)
Forest Guardians: add "maneuvering".
Sacred Unicorns: "aura of courage" is too strong.
(Especially in combination with everything else this race has).

I didn't understand some of the skills.

Suggestion for level 7 creatures:
Building requirement for all races - "castle".
Increase - 1 (maximum increase).
Creature health - increase by two times.


Humans

Chaplains - no penalty in melee combat.
Inquisitors - "cleansing".
Swordmasters - "splash", "taunt", remove "courage".
Crusaders - "double strike", "large shield".
Cherubs - "courage".

Might and Magic (MM)

Scout - remove "invisibility" (it's a cheat). Or reduce their initiative to ~7, increase damage, and give them "double strike".
Medusas: in my opinion, the skills "electric attack" and "paralysis" are not equivalent. Especially if you consider that the player usually wants to deal maximum damage to one target, rather than distribute it among many. "Electric attack" is more beneficial for neutrals.
Perhaps "electric attack" should be replaced with "ammunition drain" or "mana drain".

Shadow Lords: I understand that you will be changing the effect of the "chain reaction" ability? (In the original, it doesn't only deal damage to demons).

Black Dragons: the fact that a MM mage can deal magic damage but cannot heal with it sounds at least... strange, given "magic immunity". Giving the dragon immunity to Armageddon might be wrong... perhaps immunity to mind magic, earth magic, or summoning magic?


General:
"Aura of fear" (I assume you mean "aura of terror"). Please, fix this misunderstanding. Such an aura is possible for level 7 creatures. And even then, it shouldn't affect them. What "fear" can a dragon have of some ~scoundrel?

Undead

This is just a personal preference: I would like to restore the feature of this race that was characteristic of the game series. That is, the importance of the level 1 unit. A Necromancer should create skeletons (and, accordingly, the hero's development will stand out due to its type). I think it would be better to return (as in the first version of Heroes 5) the ability to only raise skeletons.

Vampires: should vampires lose their "retaliation"? Even if they have flight...
In my opinion, it was fine as it was.

I don't know what happened to the dragons, but I liked them more:
"deadly gaze", "large shield", "aura of terror", "attack of fear", "devastating grip" - all of these are for them :smile02:
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Offline Ment
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#571
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Archers: remove maneuvering.
(not to mention that two shots take more time, and maneuvering takes even more time)
Sylvan Sentinels: add maneuvering.
In my opinion, maneuvering isn't needed for any archers at all. It's an ability for four-tile, relatively durable (including thanks to Blood Wrath) centaurs; it's unlikely to be useful for anyone else. Unless, perhaps, for the titans from the neighboring thread :D
 

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Offline SRD
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#572
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kiko
I will share my opinion (on the most important points):

Elves

Archers: remove "maneuvering".
(Not to mention that two shots take more time, and when they also have to maneuver...)
Forest Guardians: add "maneuvering".
Sacred Unicorns: "aura of courage" is too strong.
(Especially in combination with everything else this race has).

Archers – the concept is a fast, active unit that shoots without a particular emphasis on accuracy, but can nimbly dodge close combat.
Forest Guardians, on the other hand, are snipers that attack from an ambush and are used to staying in cover – accordingly, they are not comfortable in close combat at all (the archer even has chainmail on his torso and higher defense – that is, the archer is quite ready for a sudden encounter at close range).
kiko
I didn't understand some skills.
Everything is explained on the last page – if a skill has a new name, the old name is indicated in parentheses; there are also those that, for some reason, were missing in the original game ("horrible neighborhood," "crystalline scales").
kiko
Suggestion for level 7 creatures:
building requirement for all races – "castle"
growth rate – 1 (maximum growth rate)
creature health – increase by two times.

There was such an idea (I discussed it with Nargott) – there is a problem with displaying the growth rate; it is not necessary to require a "castle"; limiting it to level 15 of the city will be enough.

kiko
Medusas: in my opinion, the skills "electric attack" and "stun" are not equivalent at all.

The stats will be different, of course.
kiko
Shadow Mistresses: I assume you will be changing the effect of the ability "chain reaction"? (In the original, it does not deal damage only to the demon race).

It does not deal damage to units with the "Demon" skill – this skill will be renamed and given to some units from the Dungeon – the logic is as follows: the Faceless are not just creatures that worship the dragon of darkness – they are offspring of darkness, let's say, not elementals, of course, but in my opinion, they should have immunity to spells similar to "unholy word." The same applies to the Dark Dragon – dragons of Silanna have immunity to earth, dragons of Arkata have immunity to fire, etc., that is, twilight dragons should have some kind of immunity to damage from dark magic.
Demons are not representatives of darkness; they are chaos, which means that everything related to order should burn them (fire, water, earth, air, darkness, and light – all these elements and their schools of magic are the fruits of the labors of Ash), that is, both "holy word" and "unholy word" will now kill a demon as well as an orc (since they all have the "blood of demons" ability).
kiko
Black Dragons: the fact that a Chaos Elemental mage can deal damage with magic but cannot heal with it sounds at least... strange, given "immunity to magic." Giving the dragon immunity to Armageddon might be wrong... immunity to mind magic, earth, summoning?


Immunity to magic for Black Dragons is canon – DO NOT TOUCH THE SACRED. I would rather remove the "irresistible magic" skill
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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Offline serovoy
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#573
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I know about the crystalline scales, just like I know about the flames of retribution, but what is this terrible neighborhood?
By the way, I found another skill in the game files - ice breath. When I tried to see what it does, the game crashed. It's a shame about this unused potential.
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Offline Gansog
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#574
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Is the mod ready?
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Offline SRD
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#575
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Since the mod isn't uploaded, it means it's not ready. ;)

Awful Neighborhood (this skill will be given to the Azure Dragon and renamed to "Fear" - in Heroes 3, Azure Dragons had the "Fear" skill, and Awful Neighborhood is somewhat similar, but the mechanism is different).
The essence of the skill: if an enemy unit attacks a creature with this skill, there is a 50% chance that the unit will become frightened and, instead of attacking, will run as far as possible to the other end of the battlefield, losing its "initiative" (the effect of fear does not work on enemies with immunity to mind magic - undead, constructs, elementals, or creatures with the mind magic immunity skill). The hero is not affected by this ability when attacking. This ability does not apply to counterattacks. In addition, a unit with the "Awful Neighborhood" skill moves 50% of its attack scale at the beginning of the battle. The value of this skill is approximately equal to the "Etherealness" skill.
- Etherealness is better in terms of survivability because any physical attack on a unit with Etherealness may be unsuccessful, while Awful Neighborhood does not affect enemies with immunity to mind magic, the hero is not affected by this ability when attacking, and this ability does not apply to counterattacks.
- Awful Neighborhood is better in terms of its tactical effect (when the skill triggers, the unit runs uncontrollably wherever it goes - this is especially unpleasant when your ranged unit, instead of attacking, not only does not deal damage but also runs to the middle of the battlefield)
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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