Дегустация Horn of the Abyss — Tournament History online

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Announcement

Wicc

11 years ago

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The show tournament by twaryna is still ongoing, and it's already clear that the version has turned out to be quite playable. Some minor edits are still possible, but overall, the gameplay will not change in the foreseeable future.

Therefore, we are starting an open HotA tournament.

Game information and download links are here - http://vk.com/h3hota.

Game version: HotA 1.3.8 + HDmode.

Template: chosen by lot from Jebus, Mini-Nostalgia, Diamond, 8mm6a, 6lm10a.

Castles: all games are played in the Wharf vs Wharf format; one player chooses the color, and the other player chooses the starting hero first.

Timer - standard for ХВ rules, but battle time is 2 minutes (with unfamiliar troops, more thinking is required during combat).
Jebus - 24+8:30+2
Diamond - 19+8+2
Mini-Nostalgia - 19+8+2
8mm6a - 21+8+2
6lm10a - 21+8+2

Roads - fast for Jebus and medium for other templates.

Restarts - 3 days in total (+objective restarts due to blocks, bugs, or encounters).

Red-rush is allowed.

Other rules correspond to the HotA show tournament rules

Tournament format - Swiss system with elimination after 2 losses. Each round is played as a best-of-one (bo1). Time per round - 3 weeks.

Rules may be clarified later, as some nuances might have been missed the first time. In case of a disputed or doubtful situation, it is recommended to contact the judge immediately. That is, do not abuse discovered bugs.

Players have the right to agree on any changes in the rules except for the game version.

Each participant must pass qualification - play at least one full online game in HotA. This is to ensure that you have installed the software correctly and understand the game rules. Players who participated in the show tournament or have game reports for HotA in the season are exempt from qualification.

Register here, specifying ICQ/Skype. Start as soon as a quorum is reached.

List of participants with current permanent rating (participants highlighted in bold have passed qualification):

1. Maretti (1880)
2. Сатир (1787)
3. The_ (1744)
4. Aiwe (1720)
5. Mizrael (1700)
6. Javdet (1699)
7. twaryna (1698)
8. KobRa_RR (1674)
9. Redwhait HP (1657)
10. WiZarDX_576(1631)
11. Amiloo (1627)
12. shpilenger (1610)
13. FireToSky (1586)
14. =Lizard= (1557)
15. Pupa (1541)
16. MuLLIyTa (1541)
17. mals (1516)
18. Huanito (1511)
19. Amster (1503)
20. Dave_HUN (1496)
21. YaR (1495)
22. Stomper (1487)
23. liverpool (1486)
24. Piterius (1485)
25. MelSpirit (1472)
26. nik312 (1438)
27. Little (1408)
28. WishmasteR (1386)
29. wariator (1352)
30. R@sIM (1310)
31. korvet (N/R)
32. MikeM (N/R)
33. skd (N/R)
34. Blitz (N/R)
35. BlackFatal (N/R)
36. guboshlyep (N/R)
37. Kalcefar (N/R)
38. Bison (N/R)
39. Jubi-juby (N/R)
40. TwinkieThecake (N/R)
41. Dr.Ftor (N/R)
42. Mukti (N/R)
43. Убитый (N/R)
44. DreadKn1ght (N/R)
45. Gee (N/R)
46. Deferatto (N/R)
47. Be3y4uu (N/R)
48. Arka (N/R)
49. Loinz (N/R)
50. silenthill (N/R)
51. Dandy (N/R)
52. Intofire (N/R)
53. LorD ExE (N/R)
54. Gi5d (N/R)
55. Bikeman56 (N/R)
56. _XS!_ (N/R)
57. Ашот-ШИК (N/R)
58. Vladimir_Ospa (N/R)
59. Docent Picolan (N/R)
60. hippox89 (N/R)
61. flate (N/R)
---------
62. Pit for LM (1847)
63. aka.Ward3n (1376)
64. Sky21044 (N/R)
65. wowa (1695)
66. RozenKran (1536)
67. Toganash (1733)
68. Simba (N/R)
69. horror145 (N/R)
70. ...

UPDATE

Regarding the tournament start dates - 3 weeks are given for registration and qualification, meaning the draw for the 1st round will be on 24.04.2015

Players may independently agree on tournament games ahead of the bracket. For this, players must have an equal number of wins/losses. The fact of agreement should be reported to me before the start of the game via a forum post or ICQ message. Independent games that were not reported before the draw of the corresponding round are considered null and void.

Anyone who wants to start already can find an opponent for the 1st round themselves and play against them. Early games may be counted as qualification if bo3 (best-of-3) is played.

UPDATE

Draw for the 1st round:

Pupa (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 117
shpilenger (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Dessa) def R@siM(Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Mini-Nostalgia 141
FireToSky (Blue, Random, Fortress, Stig, Das) def =Lizard= (Red, Random, Fortress, Korbak, Tazar) 8mm6a 122
redwhait (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Craig Heck) def Mizrael (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Jeremy) 6lm10а 232
Jubi-Juby (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def wariator (Red, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) Jebus Cross 127 1:0 (bo3)
Jubi-Juby (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Korkes) def wariator (Blue, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) 8mm6a 232 2:0 (bo3)
twaryna (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Tiraxor) def Amiloo (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 227
YaR (Blue, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) def mals (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 211
nik312 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def MuLLIyTa (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Diamond 124
DreadKn1ght (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def BlackFatal (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 121
Dandy (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def flate (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) MiniNostalgia 123
Gi5d (Red, Wharf, Lina, Kyri) def Bikeman56 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 222
The_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Gunnar) def Сатир (Red, Wharf, Miriam, Arlak) 6lm10a 212
LorD ExE (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Intofire (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 224
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Jebus Cross 127
MikeM (Blue, Fortress, Tazar, Gunnar) def Stomper (Red, Stronghold, Craig Heg, Craig Heg) Jebus Cross 126
Deferatto (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Gee (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) 8mm6a 225
Sky21044 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) def aka.Ward3n (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Mini-Nostalgia 133
skd (Red, Wharf, Lina, Illor) def _XS!_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Korkes) 8mm6a 145
Huanito (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Kyri) def MelSpirit (Red, Wharf, Illor, Jeremy) 6lm10a 147
wowa (Red, Wharf, Illor, Illor) def Toganash (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Kyri) 8mm6a 214
Docent Picolan (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Gunnar) def hippox89 (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Mini-Nostalgia 223
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Gundula) def Javdet (Blue, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) 6lm10a 224
Blitz (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Simba (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Korkes) 8mm6a 132

WiZarDX_576 def Little
Dr.Ftor def korvet
Piterius def liverpool
Mukti def Kalcefar

Arka - Loinz, mutual tech-loss

The player listed first in the pair chooses the color. The player listed second in the pair chooses the starting hero first. The template draw is started by the player listed first in the pair.

Registration and qualification continue until the end of the 1st round. There will be no further official draws; all players who register and qualify after the tournament starts must find opponents for the 1st round independently.

Deadline for the 1st round - 15.05.2015 (3 weeks)

Draw for the 2nd round:

Winners:
shpilenger (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Craig Heg) def The_ (Red, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) Mini-Nostalgia 133
nik312 (Blue, Inferno, Calh, Calh) def Jubi-Juby (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Mini-Nostalgia 214
Dandy (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Tazar) def Gi5d (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 143
Redwhait HP (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Deferatto (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Mini-Nostalgia 221
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) def Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Mini-Nostalgia 211
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def skd (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Jebus Cross 125
DreadKn1ght (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Sky21044 (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 317
wowa (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def twaryna (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 213
WiZarDX_576 (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) def FireToSky (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 132
Huanito def Pupa
horror145 def Piterius
Blitz def Mukti - awarded by save
Docent Picolan (Red, Inferno, Calh, Calh) def Dr.Ftor (Blue, Fortress, Tazar, Tazar) 8mm6a 234
MikeM (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def LorD ExE (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 211

Substitutions:
Pupa -> Jubi-Juby#2
Piterius -> Gi5d#2

Losers:
Mizrael (Blue, Random, Fortress, Vistan, Vistan) def Stomper (Red, Random, Dungeon, Alamar, Craig Heg) 6lm10a 135
RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def wariator (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Jebus Cross 127
aka.Ward3n (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Gee (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 114
hippox89 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Bikeman56 (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 146
KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def R@sIM (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 137
BlackFatal (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def flate (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Miriam) 8mm6a 134
=Lizard= (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Amiloo (Red, Inferno, Mariussa, Mariussa) 8mm6a 136
_XS!_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Intofire (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 8mm6a 133
mals (Red, Castle, Valeska, Valeska) def MelSpirit (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) 8mm6a 127

Toganash def MuLLIyTa

Substitution:
Kalcefar -> The_#2

Simba (Red, Conflux, Luna, Luna) def The_#2 (Blue, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) Jebus Cross 121

Сатир vs Javdet - mutual tech-loss; Deferatto#2 enters as a substitute for the winner of this pair
horror145 vs liverpool - mutual tech-loss

Deadline for the 2nd round - 3 weeks, meaning until 05.06.2015

Draw for the 3rd round:

Winners:
nik312 (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Redwhait HP (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Moner) Mini-Nostalgia 247
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def DreadKn1ght (Blue, Wharf, Illor, Illor) 6lm10a 141
Dandy (Red, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) def MikeM (Blue, Castle, Caitlin, Tazar) Jebus Cross 125
WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) def Huanito (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Jebus Cross 131
Docent Picolan (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Blitz (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 127
wowa (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Craig Heg) def shpilenger (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 136

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Maretti def horror145

Losers:
Jubi-Juby (Red, Conflux, Luna, Crellion) def The_ (Blue, Dungeon, Shakti, Shakti) Jebus Cross 132
RozenKran (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Gi5d (Red, Wharf, Lina, Tazar) Mini-Nostalgia 211
KobRa_RR (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Deferatto (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 8mm6a 233
=Lizard= (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Dragon) def aka.Ward3n (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Diamond 115
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Craig Heg) def Mizrael (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Jebus Cross 125
skd (Red, Wharf, Lina, Lorelei) def BlackFatal (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 144
Simba (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Tiraxor) def Gi5d#2 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 146
_XS!_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def hippox89 (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Mini-Nostalgia 133
twaryna def FireToSky
Toganash (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def mals (Red, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) 6lm10a 144
Jubi-Juby#2 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Moner) def Sky21044 (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 217
Deferatto#2 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def LorD ExE (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 214
Dr.Ftor def Mukti

Deadline - 3 weeks, meaning until 26.06.2015

Draw for the 4th round:

Players highlighted in italics play with a debuff - they grant their opponent the right to choose both the color and the starting hero.

Winners:
WiZarDX_576 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def nik312 (Blue, Inferno, Calh, Calh) Mini-Nostalgia 147
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Gunnar) def wowa (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 135
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Docent Picolan (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 131

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Dandy (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Gunnar) def Huanito (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 142

Losers:
RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Jubi-Juby (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Jebus Cross 135
=Lizard= (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Redwhait HP (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Diamond 133
Toganash (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def twaryna (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 214
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Cassiopeia) def Jubi-Juby#2 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) Mini-Nostalgia 125
MikeM (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Blitz (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Gunnar) 8mm6a 127
_XS!_ (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Dr.Ftor (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Craig Heg) 8mm6a 133
KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def DreadKn1ght (Blue, Wharf, Manfred, Manfred) 8mm6a 135

skd def shpilenger
Deferatto#2 def Simba

Deadline for the 4th round - until 24.07.2015

Draw for the 5th round:

Winners:
Dandy (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) def YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 124
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 8mm6a 221

Losers:
=Lizard= (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Jeremy) def RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Jebus Cross 125
nik312 (Blue, Necropolis, Claudius, Claudius) def Toganash (Red, Conflux, Luna, Dessa) 8mm6a 141
Deferatto#2 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def _XS!_ (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 211
skd (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Diamond 134
Pit for LM (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def wowa (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Jebus Cross 127
MikeM (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Docent Picolan (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Mini-Nostalgia 216

Deadline for the 5th round - until 14.08.2015

Draw for the 6th round:

Winners:
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Craig Heg) def Dandy (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 144

Losers:
YaR (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Deferatto#2 (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Illor) Mini-Nostalgia 213
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) def =Lizard= (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Mephala) Diamond 122
WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def skd (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 132
MikeM (Red, Castle, Valeska, Valeska) def nik312 (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 127

Deadline for the 6th round - until 04.09.2015

Draw for the 7th round:

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Maretti (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Cassiopeia) def YaR (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 214

Losers:
WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Pit for LM (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 127
MikeM (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Korkes) def Dandy (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 211

Deadline for the 7th round - until 25.09.2015

Draw for the 8th round:
YaR's bonus for winning the quiz is activated, and he remains in the tournament.

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Illor, Tazar) def MikeM (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Das) 6lm10a 136

Losers:
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 137

Deadline for the 8th round - until 16.10.2015

Final:

Maretti vs YaR

To win the tournament, Maretti only needs to win once, while YaR must win twice.

UPDATE

Since the starting confusion has ended, we will play more orderly from the 2nd round onwards.

1) Players who do not meet the round deadline (regardless of whose fault), will play in the next round with a debuff - their opponent may choose both the color and the hero.

Exceptions are possible at the discretion of the organizer. For example, if players reported difficulties in advance (within one week from the start of the round).

Therefore, I recommend not waiting until the last day, but agreeing and starting to play immediately.

2) Private messages from the organizer should be answered within 3 days. The same applies to public messages with any requests. Lack of reaction is interpreted against the player.

For example, if in response to a private message "How is the round 2 game going?", one of the players replied (regardless of what), and the second remained silent, then in the absence of a result, a technical victory will be awarded to the first.

3) If a player withdraws from the tournament or is disqualified, their slot is passed in order of queue to players who have already been eliminated from the tournament. Priority is given to those who progressed further, and if they reached the same distance - to whoever played earlier.

Therefore, I recommend agreeing and playing subsequent rounds before their official start.

In reply to The_

Wicc

11 years ago

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You're simply comparing it to the wrong things. Flax, Necr, Ramp... with them it's still unclear, there are chances for a nerf (especially the first two). The same goes for Inferno - it's hard to understand its strength without tests.

You need to compare it with others whose gameplay has either not really changed or has changed predictably. I didn't ask for nothing - has Dungeon become weaker than Castle-Swamp(-Stronghold-Tower)? IMHO it hasn't; on the same map it still stands higher, which is quite enough.

Regarding "why you can't test" - the point is "don't be afraid". For testing purposes, 20-30 are perfectly adequate values, and besides, they are clean numbers (unlike 23-33).

In my opinion, if Dungeon's starting army is to be strengthened, it should be by adding eyes-harpies, in order to lift the other starters (Lora, Gunnar).

Added after 7 minutes

Jubi-Juby

I liked the Tournament, I don't want to leave it!Well, don't wander too far... you're first on the substitutes list.

In reply to =Lizard=

Amiloo

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

Round 2, losers' bracket.

Misha didn't want to play with the Fortress; I suggested he take any red Castle against a blue Cassiopeia. Everyone rerolled, and it turned out great for me. 111 - Phoenix. 121-123 - 4 Colossus on 9 Angels. 124 - Box on level 5. 125 - Dragon Utopia with КЗ. Then I systematically cornered my opponent. On turn 136, Misha attacked himself. There was a serious advantage in magic and mana, but much more so in power. Also, there was +3 morale and +2 luck, and it worked perfectly. I managed to eliminate all of his army in 2 rounds, without letting him start summoning or anything else. Thanks for the game!

I ate up the map very slowly because I had no logistics, stables, or any other movement bonuses. Several times I unsuccessfully exposed parts of my army and completely lost my supply line from week 3. In general, I made quite a few mistakes. By the time of the final battle, I had eaten 3 Dragon Utopias, got level 5, not bad stats, but only 50 demons in my army :) There was nowhere to run without Town Portal; out of desperation, I charged with bracers and a lot of mana. But I didn't have time to cast spells, of course. Thanks for the game!

In reply to Wicc

Wicc

11 years ago

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There is one week left until the end of the 2nd round.

Players who haven’t played yet, please report on the current situation – have you started playing? If not, is there an agreement on the game?

Special attention should be paid to pairs where one of the opponents is not responding – complaints on the day the round ends, such as “my opponent hasn’t responded for 3 weeks,” may not be considered, so please report now. Preferably publicly:

FireToSky

The Wizard hasn’t been in contact for 10 days.

If someone cannot agree on a time for the game, please let me know, and I will schedule a time.

In reply to Wicc

The_

11 years ago

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You're simply comparing them to the wrong ones. Flax, Necr, Ramp... it's still unclear with them; there are chances for cuts (especially the first two). The same goes for Inferno — it's hard to understand its strength without tests.

I've already learned that when things are hard to understand, you need to test and time will tell. However, I still don't understand how the developers decided that three stacks from the aforementioned cities are okay, but three stacks of Shaktis are not? For some reason, there is no doubt left here. Well, maybe they overlooked it and decided to copy the general principle from WT without overthinking; you can never account for everything. But resolutely rejecting a well-founded opinion backed by experience is also not right. Although one way or another, a trace will remain, and if people try out HotA, others might have similar thoughts too.

You need to compare them with the rest, where the gameplay either hasn't changed much or has changed predictably. I didn't ask for nothing — did Dungeon become weaker than Castle-Swamp(-Strong-Tower)? IMHO it didn't; Cherke still stands above, and that is quite enough.

Indeed, you asked, I didn't notice immediately — forgive me — and you didn't always answer my questions on the first try either ;)
I consider the Dungeon-Castle pair, taking into account all changes, to be as close as possible to the understanding of "balance." Tower — I never liked this castle in many aspects, just not for me — I won't judge. If Bishop ever feels like playing HotA, you can ask him about it. Strong — a very specific castle — probably one of the most. Especially so in HotA, with many starters (Crag, Dessa, Gunni, Tirax, Grecha) — a lot depends on the map template, color, and specifics of objects, guards, and free gold — therefore there is no single answer; at least not weaker than HotA's Dungeon — that's my IMHO. Swamp — stronger than HotA's Dungeon, except for small templates, but considering HotA's orientation toward super-large templates, it often turns out stronger due to one of the strongest starters in the game.

besides, they are also beautiful (unlike 23-33).

and you wrote about kindergarten logic... n/c

In my opinion, if Dungeon's starting army is to be strengthened, it should be by adding Eye-Harpies to lift the other starters (Lora, Gunnar).

Maybe so, but classic Dungeon gameplay is Shaktis; if you rework other heroes — you'll get WT gameplay, do you really want that?

In reply to The_

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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The_

Maybe it is, but the classic dungeon gameplay involves mines. If you rework other heroes, you'll end up with World Tree gameplay. Do you really need that?

So, in your opinion, everything that has anything to do with or resembles World Tree is inherently bad? That's an interesting approach. However, the vast majority of top players would agree that the World Tree idea was the best thing that ever happened to Heroes 3, as a form of esports. Just because the project stopped developing and died, does that mean you should start criticizing it everywhere, whether it's appropriate or not? Yes, that's very mature.

In reply to =Lizard=

The_

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

So, in your opinion, everything that somehow relates to or resembles Warlords Tournament (WT) is inherently bad? That's an interesting approach. However, the vast majority of top players would agree that the idea of WT was the best thing that ever happened to Heroes of Might and Magic III as a competitive esport. Just because the project stopped developing and died, does that mean you should start criticizing it everywhere? That seems very immature.

I don't understand where you saw any "criticism" of WT. I didn't say a single bad thing, yet you manage to read between the lines and extract a meaning that wasn't even intended in the post. It's quite a paradox.:confused:

In reply to The_

Wicc

11 years ago

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The_

Indeed, I asked, but didn't notice right away – my apologies – and you don't always answer my questions on the first try either ;)
I believe that a pair of Dungeon castles, taking into account all the changes, is as close as possible to understanding "balance."

Well, that's good. I wish all castle pairs were like that...

Maybe it is, but the classic Dungeon gameplay is about mines; if you rework other heroes, you'll get Wrath of the Titans gameplay, do you really need that?

If by "classic Dungeon gameplay" you mean "Miner rules, everything else sucks," then Hota doesn't need that, because that need is strange.

A more interesting option is "Miner is good, but there are alternatives." In fact, that's what happened in Wrath of the Titans – in most games, you started with the Miner, but there was an alternative for those who wanted it – Laura.

This is especially useful for mirror matchups – if the Miner is too strong, there will be unpleasant setbacks for the hero, which will make the mirror matchup not very mirrored, as a large and mathematically justified bet can be ruined by a specific situation (too much or too little money).

The optimum for a mirror matchup is a zero bet, when the red bonus is approximately equal to the bonus from a slightly stronger hero for the blue player. To achieve this, each castle should ideally have a second starter, even if weaker than the first, but not by much. Currently, this condition is not met for all castles, which is bad in my opinion, so in the future, some adjustments may be made on this topic.

The_

and you were talking about kindergarten logic... n/c

No, no, no... aesthetic considerations are actually very important.

I've suggested various unconventional prices or quantities several times, but the team has stopped me, saying that it doesn't fit the overall trend, looks awkward, and smells too much like an online game, etc.

In reply to Wicc

Sanin

11 years ago

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Wicc

smells too much like online

So HotA wasn't originally designed for online play?

...

I don't understand The_'s complaints. In SoD, only the Miner can, under certain circumstances, take a double Griffin Conservatory on the first day, and a single one is almost guaranteed without serious losses. That's an obvious imbalance, and they fixed it.

Also, in terms of the number of creatures in starting stacks in SoD, only Gremlins match Troglodytes, but Tower doesn't have a Gremlin specialist. That also seems like an obvious imbalance.

In reply to Sanin

The_

11 years ago

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If by "classic dungeon gameplay" you mean "the Miner is king, everything else sucks," then Hota doesn't have that need, because that need is strange.

By classic gameplay, we mean that the tactic of the Castle is built around a stack of Troglodytes on the Miner. If you have Gunnar/Kreg/Taz, etc., you will naturally switch to them, but the starting stack of Troglodytes on the Miner in the first week is the foundation of classic SoD dungeon gameplay.

I don't understand The_'s complaints. In SoD, only the Miner can take a Consul pair on the first day under certain circumstances, and a single Consul is almost guaranteed and without significant losses. This is an obvious imbalance, and it was fixed.

And also, in SoD, only the Troglodytes have as many creatures in the starting stacks as the Goblins, but the Tower doesn't have a specialist for Goblins. This also seems like an obvious imbalance.

What complaints are there? We're not in arbitration court, we're just exchanging our points of view on various aspects of the new game. The Miner can also take a Consul 1 without losses in Hota - that's also an imbalance, let's nerf it? Let's make it 10-15 Troglodytes, otherwise it's just unbearable.
For me, it's clear that those who are expressing their opinions have played Hota very little (or haven't played it at all) as Dungeon, or have some old grudges against Troglodytes.

Added 7 minutes later

No, no, no... aesthetic considerations are very important.

The fact that stacks of 23-24-26-27, etc. Troglodytes appear is absurd. If aesthetics are so important, then there should be only 20-25-30 Troglodytes, according to the logic of the developers, which will remain a mystery to me until the end of time (regarding the aesthetic beauty of the numbers).

I suggested various non-standard prices or quantities several times, but the team stopped me, saying that it doesn't fit the overall trend, it looks strange, it smells too much of online games, etc.

And rightly so, they stopped me. You have to separate the wheat from the chaff. It's one thing to make the cost of a building 3333 gold, and another thing to change the number of units in a stack. In the case of "strange" numbers in the cost, you would have to redo the piles of gold, which would really be an eyesore and make the game more complicated, but if it's a multiple of 10, that's great.
I didn't understand the phrase about online games. Is Hota aimed exclusively at offline tournaments and campaigns?

In reply to Sanin

Wicc

11 years ago

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Sanin

So, Hota wasn't initially designed for online play?

Hota is positioned as a general gameplay expansion, just like AB or SoD. It has Campaigns, fixed maps for single-player playthroughs, a large community of single-player enthusiasts, and so on. The developers try to take into account the interests of all player groups.

The project has been around for many years, and the idea of playing Hota online randomly appeared relatively recently. Balance adjustments for the castles were made specifically for this purpose.

Added after 26 minutes

The_

it's one thing to set the construction cost to 3333 gold

The discussion was about 4 mercury in the upgrade of Gogs. It's an unusual cost, not found anywhere else; everywhere it's either 2+2 or 5 or 10 or a lot (at level 7).

To make the cost of this upgrade not look out of place against the general background, they made a similar price for some other low-level buildings or upgrades, which may be needed at levels 111-112.

Specifically regarding starting armies - everywhere level 1 is either 10-20 or 15-25 or 20-30 or 30-40. Only centaurs are an exception - 12-24 (which is strange, because they are clearly better than troops with a range of 10-20 - pikemen, gnolls).

In reply to Wicc

The_

11 years ago

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Specifically regarding the starting armies – everywhere level 1 means either 10-20, 15-25, 20-30, or 30-40 units. Centaurs are the only exception – 12-24 (which is strange, because they are clearly stronger than units with a range of 10-20 – like Pikemen, Goblins).

Vikk, you first say one thing, and then you either directly or indirectly refute your own words and logical reasoning.
It gives the impression that you understand everything yourself, but a simple sense of ownership is having its effect.
And that's understandable, I would probably do the same if I had created something and invested a lot of effort into it, I would also defend and protect my ideas from any advisors, even despite obvious flaws, for example, as with the aesthetics, and then suddenly, 12-24 centaurs – how did that happen? But no, not for others, because we didn't plan it that way initially, and the aesthetics would suffer.

In reply to The_

Wicc

11 years ago

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The_

Vikk, you first say one thing, then you, either directly or indirectly, refute your own words and logical reasoning. It gives the impression that you understand everything yourself, but a simple sense of ownership leaves its mark. It's understandable; I would probably defend and protect my own ideas from any advisors, even despite obvious flaws, such as with aesthetics, and then suddenly, there are 12-24 centaurs, and it's unclear how that happened, but no, others can't have that, because we didn't plan it that way initially, and the aesthetics would suffer.

Thank you for the psychological consultation, but it's not really needed here, because I see the flaws well and am not afraid to admit them. Regarding aesthetics, I don't have any particular point of view of my own, so I rely on the team's position, which I have outlined. Specifically, centaurs are one of the original flaws of SoD, but the attitude towards them is lenient because we're used to them, unlike newly created flaws. Personally, I wouldn't mind reducing the centaur stacks to 10-20. Another example on the same topic is the 4-7 crocodiles for Bron, which is clearly a programmer's mistake (such a range for lizards), but we've gotten used to it, and there's not much point in fixing it; it's like a feature, and besides, it's not imbalanced (strangely enough). Moreover, this gave us the moral right to add chickens to Illor's starting army; we didn't have the audacity to add 4-7, so we limited it to 3-5. Although now I'm thinking that 4-7 wouldn't spoil it either. If you were to set the number of troglodytes based on the centaurs, something like 24-36 would look aesthetically pleasing. But I repeat, balance considerations still matter, and unlike aesthetics, these are my own. With such a range, the average is 134 troglodytes, which is a lot. Cassiopeia was reduced from 120 to 100 with the argument "it's too strong!", but troglodytes are still a more useful unit than nymphs.

In reply to Wicc

MikeM

11 years ago

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We are starting the second round today with LorD ExE. We should be able to finish it by the deadline.

In reply to Wicc

FireToSky

11 years ago

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Wicc

There is one week left until the end of the 2nd round.

Players who haven't played yet, please report on the status - have you started playing? If not, is there an agreement on the game?

Special attention to pairs where one of the opponents is not in contact - complaints on the day the round ends, such as "my opponent didn't respond for 3 weeks," may not be considered, so please report now. Preferably publicly:

If someone cannot agree on a time for the game, please let me know, and I will schedule a time.

Schedule it.