Дегустация Horn of the Abyss — Tournament History online

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Announcement

Wicc

11 years ago

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The show tournament by twaryna is still ongoing, and it's already clear that the version has turned out to be quite playable. Some minor edits are still possible, but overall, the gameplay will not change in the foreseeable future.

Therefore, we are starting an open HotA tournament.

Game information and download links are here - http://vk.com/h3hota.

Game version: HotA 1.3.8 + HDmode.

Template: chosen by lot from Jebus, Mini-Nostalgia, Diamond, 8mm6a, 6lm10a.

Castles: all games are played in the Wharf vs Wharf format; one player chooses the color, and the other player chooses the starting hero first.

Timer - standard for ХВ rules, but battle time is 2 minutes (with unfamiliar troops, more thinking is required during combat).
Jebus - 24+8:30+2
Diamond - 19+8+2
Mini-Nostalgia - 19+8+2
8mm6a - 21+8+2
6lm10a - 21+8+2

Roads - fast for Jebus and medium for other templates.

Restarts - 3 days in total (+objective restarts due to blocks, bugs, or encounters).

Red-rush is allowed.

Other rules correspond to the HotA show tournament rules

Tournament format - Swiss system with elimination after 2 losses. Each round is played as a best-of-one (bo1). Time per round - 3 weeks.

Rules may be clarified later, as some nuances might have been missed the first time. In case of a disputed or doubtful situation, it is recommended to contact the judge immediately. That is, do not abuse discovered bugs.

Players have the right to agree on any changes in the rules except for the game version.

Each participant must pass qualification - play at least one full online game in HotA. This is to ensure that you have installed the software correctly and understand the game rules. Players who participated in the show tournament or have game reports for HotA in the season are exempt from qualification.

Register here, specifying ICQ/Skype. Start as soon as a quorum is reached.

List of participants with current permanent rating (participants highlighted in bold have passed qualification):

1. Maretti (1880)
2. Сатир (1787)
3. The_ (1744)
4. Aiwe (1720)
5. Mizrael (1700)
6. Javdet (1699)
7. twaryna (1698)
8. KobRa_RR (1674)
9. Redwhait HP (1657)
10. WiZarDX_576(1631)
11. Amiloo (1627)
12. shpilenger (1610)
13. FireToSky (1586)
14. =Lizard= (1557)
15. Pupa (1541)
16. MuLLIyTa (1541)
17. mals (1516)
18. Huanito (1511)
19. Amster (1503)
20. Dave_HUN (1496)
21. YaR (1495)
22. Stomper (1487)
23. liverpool (1486)
24. Piterius (1485)
25. MelSpirit (1472)
26. nik312 (1438)
27. Little (1408)
28. WishmasteR (1386)
29. wariator (1352)
30. R@sIM (1310)
31. korvet (N/R)
32. MikeM (N/R)
33. skd (N/R)
34. Blitz (N/R)
35. BlackFatal (N/R)
36. guboshlyep (N/R)
37. Kalcefar (N/R)
38. Bison (N/R)
39. Jubi-juby (N/R)
40. TwinkieThecake (N/R)
41. Dr.Ftor (N/R)
42. Mukti (N/R)
43. Убитый (N/R)
44. DreadKn1ght (N/R)
45. Gee (N/R)
46. Deferatto (N/R)
47. Be3y4uu (N/R)
48. Arka (N/R)
49. Loinz (N/R)
50. silenthill (N/R)
51. Dandy (N/R)
52. Intofire (N/R)
53. LorD ExE (N/R)
54. Gi5d (N/R)
55. Bikeman56 (N/R)
56. _XS!_ (N/R)
57. Ашот-ШИК (N/R)
58. Vladimir_Ospa (N/R)
59. Docent Picolan (N/R)
60. hippox89 (N/R)
61. flate (N/R)
---------
62. Pit for LM (1847)
63. aka.Ward3n (1376)
64. Sky21044 (N/R)
65. wowa (1695)
66. RozenKran (1536)
67. Toganash (1733)
68. Simba (N/R)
69. horror145 (N/R)
70. ...

UPDATE

Regarding the tournament start dates - 3 weeks are given for registration and qualification, meaning the draw for the 1st round will be on 24.04.2015

Players may independently agree on tournament games ahead of the bracket. For this, players must have an equal number of wins/losses. The fact of agreement should be reported to me before the start of the game via a forum post or ICQ message. Independent games that were not reported before the draw of the corresponding round are considered null and void.

Anyone who wants to start already can find an opponent for the 1st round themselves and play against them. Early games may be counted as qualification if bo3 (best-of-3) is played.

UPDATE

Draw for the 1st round:

Pupa (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 117
shpilenger (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Dessa) def R@siM(Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Mini-Nostalgia 141
FireToSky (Blue, Random, Fortress, Stig, Das) def =Lizard= (Red, Random, Fortress, Korbak, Tazar) 8mm6a 122
redwhait (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Craig Heck) def Mizrael (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Jeremy) 6lm10а 232
Jubi-Juby (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def wariator (Red, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) Jebus Cross 127 1:0 (bo3)
Jubi-Juby (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Korkes) def wariator (Blue, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) 8mm6a 232 2:0 (bo3)
twaryna (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Tiraxor) def Amiloo (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 227
YaR (Blue, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) def mals (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 211
nik312 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def MuLLIyTa (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Diamond 124
DreadKn1ght (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def BlackFatal (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 121
Dandy (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def flate (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) MiniNostalgia 123
Gi5d (Red, Wharf, Lina, Kyri) def Bikeman56 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 222
The_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Gunnar) def Сатир (Red, Wharf, Miriam, Arlak) 6lm10a 212
LorD ExE (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Intofire (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 224
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Jebus Cross 127
MikeM (Blue, Fortress, Tazar, Gunnar) def Stomper (Red, Stronghold, Craig Heg, Craig Heg) Jebus Cross 126
Deferatto (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Gee (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) 8mm6a 225
Sky21044 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) def aka.Ward3n (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Mini-Nostalgia 133
skd (Red, Wharf, Lina, Illor) def _XS!_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Korkes) 8mm6a 145
Huanito (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Kyri) def MelSpirit (Red, Wharf, Illor, Jeremy) 6lm10a 147
wowa (Red, Wharf, Illor, Illor) def Toganash (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Kyri) 8mm6a 214
Docent Picolan (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Gunnar) def hippox89 (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Mini-Nostalgia 223
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Gundula) def Javdet (Blue, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) 6lm10a 224
Blitz (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Simba (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Korkes) 8mm6a 132

WiZarDX_576 def Little
Dr.Ftor def korvet
Piterius def liverpool
Mukti def Kalcefar

Arka - Loinz, mutual tech-loss

The player listed first in the pair chooses the color. The player listed second in the pair chooses the starting hero first. The template draw is started by the player listed first in the pair.

Registration and qualification continue until the end of the 1st round. There will be no further official draws; all players who register and qualify after the tournament starts must find opponents for the 1st round independently.

Deadline for the 1st round - 15.05.2015 (3 weeks)

Draw for the 2nd round:

Winners:
shpilenger (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Craig Heg) def The_ (Red, Wharf, Miriam, Miriam) Mini-Nostalgia 133
nik312 (Blue, Inferno, Calh, Calh) def Jubi-Juby (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Mini-Nostalgia 214
Dandy (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Tazar) def Gi5d (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 143
Redwhait HP (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Deferatto (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Mini-Nostalgia 221
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) def Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Mini-Nostalgia 211
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def skd (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Jebus Cross 125
DreadKn1ght (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Sky21044 (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 317
wowa (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def twaryna (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 213
WiZarDX_576 (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) def FireToSky (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 132
Huanito def Pupa
horror145 def Piterius
Blitz def Mukti - awarded by save
Docent Picolan (Red, Inferno, Calh, Calh) def Dr.Ftor (Blue, Fortress, Tazar, Tazar) 8mm6a 234
MikeM (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def LorD ExE (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 211

Substitutions:
Pupa -> Jubi-Juby#2
Piterius -> Gi5d#2

Losers:
Mizrael (Blue, Random, Fortress, Vistan, Vistan) def Stomper (Red, Random, Dungeon, Alamar, Craig Heg) 6lm10a 135
RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def wariator (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Jebus Cross 127
aka.Ward3n (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Gee (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 114
hippox89 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Bikeman56 (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 146
KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def R@sIM (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 137
BlackFatal (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def flate (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Miriam) 8mm6a 134
=Lizard= (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Amiloo (Red, Inferno, Mariussa, Mariussa) 8mm6a 136
_XS!_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Intofire (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 8mm6a 133
mals (Red, Castle, Valeska, Valeska) def MelSpirit (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) 8mm6a 127

Toganash def MuLLIyTa

Substitution:
Kalcefar -> The_#2

Simba (Red, Conflux, Luna, Luna) def The_#2 (Blue, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) Jebus Cross 121

Сатир vs Javdet - mutual tech-loss; Deferatto#2 enters as a substitute for the winner of this pair
horror145 vs liverpool - mutual tech-loss

Deadline for the 2nd round - 3 weeks, meaning until 05.06.2015

Draw for the 3rd round:

Winners:
nik312 (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Redwhait HP (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Moner) Mini-Nostalgia 247
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def DreadKn1ght (Blue, Wharf, Illor, Illor) 6lm10a 141
Dandy (Red, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) def MikeM (Blue, Castle, Caitlin, Tazar) Jebus Cross 125
WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) def Huanito (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Jebus Cross 131
Docent Picolan (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Blitz (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 127
wowa (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Craig Heg) def shpilenger (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 136

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Maretti def horror145

Losers:
Jubi-Juby (Red, Conflux, Luna, Crellion) def The_ (Blue, Dungeon, Shakti, Shakti) Jebus Cross 132
RozenKran (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Gi5d (Red, Wharf, Lina, Tazar) Mini-Nostalgia 211
KobRa_RR (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def Deferatto (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 8mm6a 233
=Lizard= (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Dragon) def aka.Ward3n (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Diamond 115
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Craig Heg) def Mizrael (Red, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) Jebus Cross 125
skd (Red, Wharf, Lina, Lorelei) def BlackFatal (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 144
Simba (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Tiraxor) def Gi5d#2 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 146
_XS!_ (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def hippox89 (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Mini-Nostalgia 133
twaryna def FireToSky
Toganash (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def mals (Red, Rampart, Kyri, Kyri) 6lm10a 144
Jubi-Juby#2 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Moner) def Sky21044 (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 6lm10a 217
Deferatto#2 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def LorD ExE (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 214
Dr.Ftor def Mukti

Deadline - 3 weeks, meaning until 26.06.2015

Draw for the 4th round:

Players highlighted in italics play with a debuff - they grant their opponent the right to choose both the color and the starting hero.

Winners:
WiZarDX_576 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def nik312 (Blue, Inferno, Calh, Calh) Mini-Nostalgia 147
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Gunnar) def wowa (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 135
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Docent Picolan (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 131

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Dandy (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Gunnar) def Huanito (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 142

Losers:
RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Jubi-Juby (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Jebus Cross 135
=Lizard= (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Redwhait HP (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Diamond 133
Toganash (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def twaryna (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 214
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Cassiopeia) def Jubi-Juby#2 (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) Mini-Nostalgia 125
MikeM (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Blitz (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Gunnar) 8mm6a 127
_XS!_ (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Dr.Ftor (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Craig Heg) 8mm6a 133
KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) def DreadKn1ght (Blue, Wharf, Manfred, Manfred) 8mm6a 135

skd def shpilenger
Deferatto#2 def Simba

Deadline for the 4th round - until 24.07.2015

Draw for the 5th round:

Winners:
Dandy (Blue, Wharf, Korkes, Korkes) def YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Jebus Cross 124
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 8mm6a 221

Losers:
=Lizard= (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Jeremy) def RozenKran (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Jebus Cross 125
nik312 (Blue, Necropolis, Claudius, Claudius) def Toganash (Red, Conflux, Luna, Dessa) 8mm6a 141
Deferatto#2 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def _XS!_ (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) 8mm6a 211
skd (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def KobRa_RR (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Diamond 134
Pit for LM (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def wowa (Blue, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Cassiopeia) Jebus Cross 127
MikeM (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) def Docent Picolan (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) Mini-Nostalgia 216

Deadline for the 5th round - until 14.08.2015

Draw for the 6th round:

Winners:
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Craig Heg) def Dandy (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 144

Losers:
YaR (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Deferatto#2 (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Illor) Mini-Nostalgia 213
Pit for LM (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Kyri) def =Lizard= (Red, Wharf, Cassiopeia, Mephala) Diamond 122
WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def skd (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 132
MikeM (Red, Castle, Valeska, Valeska) def nik312 (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 127

Deadline for the 6th round - until 04.09.2015

Draw for the 7th round:

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Maretti (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Cassiopeia) def YaR (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 6lm10a 214

Losers:
WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def Pit for LM (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) Diamond 127
MikeM (Red, Wharf, Annabelle, Korkes) def Dandy (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) 6lm10a 211

Deadline for the 7th round - until 25.09.2015

Draw for the 8th round:
YaR's bonus for winning the quiz is activated, and he remains in the tournament.

Intermediate pair (winner vs loser):
Maretti (Red, Wharf, Illor, Tazar) def MikeM (Blue, Wharf, Jeremy, Das) 6lm10a 136

Losers:
YaR (Red, Wharf, Jeremy, Jeremy) def WiZarDX_576 (Blue, Wharf, Annabelle, Annabelle) 8mm6a 137

Deadline for the 8th round - until 16.10.2015

Final:

Maretti vs YaR

To win the tournament, Maretti only needs to win once, while YaR must win twice.

UPDATE

Since the starting confusion has ended, we will play more orderly from the 2nd round onwards.

1) Players who do not meet the round deadline (regardless of whose fault), will play in the next round with a debuff - their opponent may choose both the color and the hero.

Exceptions are possible at the discretion of the organizer. For example, if players reported difficulties in advance (within one week from the start of the round).

Therefore, I recommend not waiting until the last day, but agreeing and starting to play immediately.

2) Private messages from the organizer should be answered within 3 days. The same applies to public messages with any requests. Lack of reaction is interpreted against the player.

For example, if in response to a private message "How is the round 2 game going?", one of the players replied (regardless of what), and the second remained silent, then in the absence of a result, a technical victory will be awarded to the first.

3) If a player withdraws from the tournament or is disqualified, their slot is passed in order of queue to players who have already been eliminated from the tournament. Priority is given to those who progressed further, and if they reached the same distance - to whoever played earlier.

Therefore, I recommend agreeing and playing subsequent rounds before their official start.

In reply to The_

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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2The:

1. Actually, Lora with a guaranteed 3 stacks is NOT a demoralization and NOT a weak start. Yes, the Miner is significantly weaker. But 25+ greed harpies is not a demoralization, but a separate direction capable of doing very tempo-based things, especially against hordes of golems/earth elementals etc.

2. Necromancer without a stack is totally weak at the start. Plus, skeletons accumulate wildly slowly due to nerfed necromancy. Talking about an imba stack on 121-122 is somewhat noobish... The same Barbarian in HotA already has an army for Dragon Utopia by that time, and we are NOT talking about Jebus Cross. In the late game - yes, Castle is very strong, but again, IMHO it's inferior to Inferno, because Inferno in HotA is very strong even at the start.

p.s. Overall, the post gave a feeling similar to that of posts by Heroin and КО regarding Mage Guild restructuring. People write conclusions based on assumptions rather than experience from specific games. It's not cool somehow, worse than flood IMHO:).

In reply to =Lizard=

The_

11 years ago

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=Lizard=

2The: p.s. Overall, the post gave me the same feeling as Heroina and Co's posts about the game mechanics overhaul. People are drawing conclusions based on assumptions rather than on the experience of specific games. It's not cool, and in my opinion, it's worse than just mindless chatter.

I'm incredibly interested in your gameplay in HotA, which you use to accuse me of making assumptions and so on.
Overhaul, overhaul, overhaul, let's weave it into all topics and consider it the ultimate, irrefutable argument for your point of view.

=Lizard=

2The:
1. Actually, having Lore with a guaranteed 3 stacks is NOT demoralizing and NOT a weak start. Yes, the Miner is significantly weaker. But 25+ griffin guards is not demoralizing; it's a separate strategy that can be very effective, especially against hordes of golems/earth elementals, etc.

Here's the true essence of the Warlord Tower strategy in all its glory. What you described is situational, meaning it's rarely used. Although in Warlord Tower, there was still experience gained from these griffins, and they were effective. I just don't understand how you got 25+ griffins (or rather, I do understand; you meant that Lore is taken as a starting unit, plus the main hero + a purchased unit, with maximum stacks, as in Warlord Tower). I'm amazed that hardcore Warlord Tower players manage to turn any topic into a discussion about their Warlord Tower. Are you afraid that you'll fade into obscurity if you don't make such posts periodically? Well, it's your business, not mine to judge.

=Lizard=

2The:

2. A Necromancer without stacks is totally weak at the start. Plus, skeletons accumulate very slowly due to the reduced Necromancy skill. Saying that having an "imba" stack at levels 121-122 is a bit naive...

This image speaks a thousand words.

p.s. The post was written from an entertaining point of view, sometimes prompting reflection, using exaggerations and allegories, sometimes very obvious. (about the previous post)
In essence, you wrote the first point, but only formally; in practice, it's not true.
The second point is a matter of taste. Although it seems to me that most people understand it the same way I do, or maybe not; that's fine. In general, I could have just answered like that, but after your "p.s." the essence of the answer can only be the picture above.

In reply to The_

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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If the post was purely for entertainment, then I apologize, I was too harsh. As for Laura, both in HotA and in Warlords, she starts with (6-8)+(6-8)+(6-8)+8=26-32 harpies. Okay, let's assume she had terrible luck and only got 26, and 6 were given to the ogres. Then that's 20. And even that is great, not just situational.

In reply to =Lizard=

Wicc

11 years ago

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2 The_

You are proceeding from the postulate that Dungeon should be noticeably stronger than average. Within that logic, yes, more Troglodytes need to be given.

But in HotA there is no such premise; instead, there is the opposite premise of equalizing the strength of towns. The balancing principle is to keep strong towns in place and strengthen weak ones. This simplifies both balance analysis and the learning curve for players.

For this reason, the number of Troglodytes was reduced—so that the average stack size is roughly the same as in SoD.

Also, your numbers are somewhat strange. It's not 10 Troglodytes, but 5, and I consider trading 5 Troglodytes for 3.5 Evil Eyes roughly equivalent—sometimes one is needed more, sometimes the other, and if there is any net effect, it's insignificant. It's odd that you think otherwise.

Regarding minimum quantities—in SoD it's 54, and in HotA it's 74. Moreover, unlike SoD, where 1 stack is a very real situation, in HotA the number of stacks greatly reduces variance; in most cases it will be 110-120 Troglodytes.

Regarding Necro—Vampires are certainly cool, but only with weak starting armies, or in games of weak players, or with a 200% start. With 3 starting stacks and steady hands at 160%, other towns develop momentum no worse by the second week. For example, a couple of years ago there was a tournament for capturing a max conflux on the second week with a standard full army, and all towns successfully managed it in the performance of most players (there were 3 losses out of 64 battles).

I expressed this position back in the development stage, and it was also voiced independently by commentators of a show tournament multiple times in discussions. This gives hope for its correctness.

Regarding the mechanics—the value of the Vampire external dwelling was increased, becoming higher than that of level 7 external dwellings, so getting it for free on the first week is not possible (there are also no shifted guards), and it's very difficult to recoup the cost.

It should also be added that HotA carefully monitors the game's atmosphere and gameplay continuity (single-player), so typical online solutions like "forbid upgrading Vampires" or "remove the ability from Vampires" are not considered; other solutions are needed. For example, a solution like "reduce Vampire growth to 3" might be acceptable. Or "reduce Isra's specialty to 3% per level." Although I don't currently see a need for that (maybe I'm wrong).

Regarding "other towns had their Necromancers cut"—I completely agree, this was one of the goals of balancing. Reading reports like "my opponent got 2 Necromancers, and I got none, sucks to be me" is rather unpleasant.

The general principle of Necro balancing—cut the imba (Gosha, Necromancy) and even out the weak spots (starting with a crappy army in the dungeon). Hence, for example, the reduced cost of Liches and the new splash.

Objectively speaking, Necro's balance still requires study; there is no final position, practice testing is needed. If it's imba—we'll think further, but for now it's far from obvious.

Regarding Swamp—even during the first semi-closed testing, an opinion was voiced (I think Satyr and Indra said it) that Swamp gets little benefit from these 3 stacks, while other towns get significantly more. Plus, there are fewer hives, and more neutral creatures need to be carried through the swamp. So it was decided to raise the starting army to the HotA level, since practice has proven that it doesn't cause imbalances within the town (Dragon and Vistan are still worse than Tazar).

Regarding Conflux—its situation is like Necro's; the gameplay is heavily changed, so it's difficult to judge balance; practice testing is needed. In SoD, Conflux's gameplay revolves around 4 birds at 121; everything else is essentially eating and a means to gather resources for the birds.

In HotA, however, Conflux's gameplay is closer to HotA's—put Psychos in the castle, upgrade them at 122, and off we go. HotA's practice has shown that this is fairly balanced with other towns. In HotA, there are some differences, some for the better, some for the worse; overall, it's unclear.

Regarding Cove—what, does it look like an imba? To me, the town is above average, but not once stronger than, say, Rampart. I saw 3 games of Rampart-Cove; Rampart won all of them. Of course, the sample is small, but still...

Added 28 minutes later

=Lizard=

If the post really was purely entertaining, then I apologize, I was too harsh :).

And for Laura, both in HotA and in HotA, by herself (with starting Miner/Adjutant): (6-8)+(6-8)+(6-8)+8=26-32 Harpies. Fine, let's imagine she was totally unlucky and got 26, and 6 were given to scout heroes. Then 20. And that's still strong, not situational.

6-8 is the HotA quantity, while in HotA the quantities are SoD-style—4-6.

In reply to Wicc

The_

11 years ago

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And also, your numbers are kind of strange. Not 10 Troglodytes, but 5, and trading 5 Troglodytes for 3.5 Evil Eyes I consider roughly equivalent — sometimes one is more needed, sometimes the other, the overall effect if any is insignificant. Strange that you think otherwise.

I didn’t understand the arithmetic, how did 5 Evil Eyes become equal to 3.5 Evil Eyes?

I’ll repeat, I agree variance decreases, albeit along with the number of Troglodytes.

It’s silly to argue that Dungeon will be in the top 5 by any player’s ranking — that’s clear.
But for some reason, other towns from this top-5 (Conflux, Necropolis, Swamp) are being buffed, and please don’t talk about a complete rework of towns, yes it needs testing and so on and so forth, but it’s still a buff no matter how you look at it. While Dungeon is being nerfed and significantly. Why don’t Air Elementals come in groups of 2-4 then and so on. Was Dungeon really such an impossible favorite compared to others? No, I don’t think so, and it would seem that you, as a stats enthusiast, should know this better than others.

25-35 Troglodytes, that increases the starting army by exactly 10 Troglodytes, so that the average becomes 120 Troglodytes, oh how much that will change the balance, oh come on, please.

I understand it all, and the master’s word is law, and do it yourself first if you’re criticizing, and many other such expressions, but explain to me what Dungeon did to displease you, everyone was either buffed or left untouched — Dungeon was lowered. Logic?

Vikk, I’m not that familiar with the history of Heroes, that’s understandable, but I don’t need to witness a tournament to understand that it’s easier to take a Griffin Conservatory for Necropolis on the second month with Vampires than for any other town (not counting spells, super stats, and so on). I’m not even mentioning all the other "zillion" objects and guards that these Vampires break without the main army. And most importantly, you don’t even have to try, it’s like an endless summer, you just get a thrill from omnipotence.
I didn’t know about the buffing of treasure pile guards, I confess, as they say, it’s better than nothing, even if stale.

About the Whirlpool, Vikk oh come on, it will be average — I don’t dispute that, but right now, it’s imbalanced. And not even overall, but in the particulars embedded in it, which will simply be cut later and raise no questions, because it’s obviously imbalanced (I already described in the previous post what I think the purpose of this was). Cassiopeia has already been nerfed. Next in line are Mirrim, Nix, Sea Wolves (any weakening), Jeremy with the cannon.

In shahkti we trust! Hands off trogs! Eternal memory to the 30-40 trogs!:smile14:

In reply to The_

Wicc

11 years ago

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The_

I didn't understand the arithmetic, how did 5 Evil Eyes become equal to 3.5 Evil Eyes?

I repeat, I agree that the variance decreases, along with the number of Troglodytes.

The arithmetic is like this - in HotA, the Dungeon without Laura has on average 25*4+14 = 114 Troglodytes, 5 Harpies, and 3.5 Evil Eyes.

In SoD, with 2 stacks for both starting heroes and without Laura (the most common situation), the Dungeon has on average 35*3+14 = 119 Troglodytes + 5 Harpies.

So the trade-off is 5 Troglodytes for 3.5 Evil Eyes.

It's silly to argue that the Dungeon will be in the top 5 according to any player - that's clear.

Ideally, there shouldn't be a universally accepted top 5 at all; there should be personal preferences.

For example - in WoG, after the two universally recognized imbalanced factions (Swamp and Necro), there was a tight group of Conflux-Dungeon-Stronghold-Inferno, the choice within which was determined by players' personal preferences (for me, Stronghold was the leader). And 2 castles slightly behind (but not by much) - Castle and Rampart. Well, and the terrible Tower. WoG didn't survive to see the balancing of Swamp, Necro, and Tower, but the rest of the group was very compactly arranged; something like that would be desirable in HotA as well.

But for some reason, other castles from this top 5 (Conflux, Necro, Swamp) are being buffed, and please don't talk about a complete rework of castles, yes we need to test and so on and so forth, but this is a buff no matter how you look at it.

Well, how can I not talk about it... I, for instance, understand the balance of Heroes clearly better than average, but I don't have any firm opinion on who should be pulled in which direction. I laid out my arguments above. I envy your confidence.

But the Dungeon is being nerfed, and significantly. Why don't Air Elementals come in groups of 2-4, then, and so on. Was the Dungeon really such an impossible favorite compared to others? No, I don't think so, and it would seem you, as a statistics enthusiast, should know that better than others.

I told you - the Dungeon isn't being nerfed, the Dungeon is being kept in place. It's simpler that way.

25-35 Troglodytes, it would increase the starting army by exactly 10 Troglodytes, so that the average would be 120 Troglodytes — oh, how much that would change the balance, come on, please.

That's +20 Troglodytes. A bit much...

Vic, I'm not that familiar with the history of Heroes, that's understandable, but I don't need to be an eyewitness to a tournament to understand that taking a Griffin Conservatory for Necro on the second day with Vampires is easier than for any other castle (not taking into account spells, super stats, etc.). Not to mention the whole "million" other objects and guards that these Vampires break through, without the participation of the main army. And most importantly, you don't even have to strain yourself, it's like an endless summer, you just get a kick out of omnipotence.

It is easier, the question is, is it faster? That's the point — the more skilled the players, the less the factor of Vampires, because their tempo is achieved with other troops, which, unlike Vampires, are suitable for taking Dragon Utopias. For example, buy up Bears/Rocs/Wolves and start rolling. Meanwhile, Necro first spends money on Vampires, takes something with them, then still needs to buy the rest (Dreads for example). That's about -10K in gold difference. I'm not saying Vampires are bad, but that you're slightly exaggerating their imbalanced nature.

Again, an example from WoG - Vampires can be upgraded there, but how often is it done? Not very often, usually they prefer to buy the small fry/convert them into Skeletons/upgrade, then upgrade/buy more Dreads and go-go Griffin Conservatories-Dragon Fly Hives-Dragon Utopias. And the Vampires get upgraded/bought towards the end of the 2nd week to fight on a second front for resources to rebuild the guild and other small stuff.

Regarding the Cove, Vic, come on, it will be average - I won't argue, but right now, it's imbalanced. And not even as a whole, but through the specifics embedded in it, which later will simply be cut down and won't raise questions, because it's obvious imbalance (I already described in the previous post why I think this was done). Cassiopeia was already nerfed. Next up are Myriam, Nix, Sea Wolves (any weakening), Jeremy with his cannon.

Ehh... well, we'll see... :) Again, I envy your confidence, I wish I had it.

Regarding Cassi - in one of the early patches she was buffed to add another starter. But then "circumstances changed" (quote), and they forgot about Cassi. Kind of an oversight, hence the quick rollback. The rest are planned features, so if they change, it will be much less, much slower, and only if there are substantial arguments.

Regarding Myriam - she's definitely good as a scout hero, but taking her as a starter is a sharply negative move, so changes are unlikely. Regarding Jeremy - concerns existed before and still exist now, he was introduced with the comment "needs practical testing". The Nix are a feature, they were planned that way, so changes are unlikely. Sea Wolves - the percentage of their Precise Shot has already been changed a couple of times, so it's not a constant; it's acceptable to tweak them; we'll see.

Although personally, I wouldn't want to change anything more in the Cove, so the arguments would need to be very, very weighty.

In reply to The_

The_

11 years ago

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6-8 is WT quantities, while in HotA the quantities are SOD-like - 4-6.

Well, that's essentially what I wrote about.

Added after 44 minutes

That's +20 Troglodytes. A bit much ...

OK, agreed, +20 is a lot, let it be 23-33 Troglodytes in a stack (this is not trolling), is +12 too much or too little? What determines this criterion?

- Dungeon is held in place while the others move forward, apparently such is the party policy, and this despite the fact that it shouldn't be a top-5 castle. Dungeon's whole gimmick was (is and will be) in the Troglodyte stack (which was killed in WT by making Lora the main starter, with Harpies that don't get return shots + have the option to block shooter stacks and deal damage - again, simplification of the game, but this is a tangent and not relevant to the matter, I'm just giving an example, don't throw cookies at me), which by itself is very weak in the late game (slow ground units with average speed, a stack that is hard to replenish, etc.) helped shape the early game, and on the second, third, etc. weeks a completely different game began, without the involvement of Trogs (with exceptions of course, and I've had games with 500+ Trogs). This is the feature I'm trying to defend. Let me give an example, in SOD there can be 170+ Trogs, in HotA never; in SOD there can be 44 Trogs from the start, in HotA never. Reduced variance, you'll say; removed a piece of gameplay, I'll say. All problems would be solved by increasing the Troglodyte stack, at least to the standard SOD levels.
I'll repeat the question: why doesn't Conflux then get 2-4 Air Elementals, at least on Monere or Pasice.

In my humble opinion, you're being disingenuous about whether the castles described in previous posts were strengthened or weakened.
About the Swamp: there are more new objects, yes, I don't argue; is it unpleasant to drag them across the land? Yes, I won't argue; and when was it pleasant to drag non-native meat across Swamp land? And how does increasing the Gnolls help with this? At the start you have your native army, which makes the game in the first week. Or does increasing the Gnolls make the army move faster through the Swamp in week 3, when it's already truly more diverse?
And about Conflux, we had 4 apple pies, 1 was taken away, in return they gave three cherry pies, yeeeah... need to think and figure out if this is a plus or not.
I'll say nothing about Necro, here indeed the markers are just different, diametrically opposite views and approaches to the issue.

About playtime.
I played about 10 +-1 games, totaling about 50 replays of 111. Not many, but not critically few either. Dungeon has become weaker - for me it's obvious (as for someone who has played more games for Dungeon than for all others combined, and this considering my until recently heavy gaming schedule - in other words, a lot). And the difference is there for me; this isn't being held in place, this is being sunk in the swamp.

In reply to The_

Jubi-Juby

11 years ago

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The 4th round started with RozenKran...

In reply to The_

Wicc

11 years ago

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The_

IMHO, you're deluding yourself about whether the towns described in previous posts were strengthened or weakened.
About the Swamp, there are more new objects now, I won't argue that; is it unpleasant to drag things across the ground? I won't argue that either — but when was it ever pleasant to drag non-native meat across the Swamp's ground? And how does the increase in Gnolls help with that? At the start, you have your native army, which determines the game in the first week. Or does the increase in Gnolls make the army move faster through the Swamp in week 3, when it's already truly more diverse?

The logic was this — for the Swamp in SoD, the situation is that the starting army is weak, battles are carried by Wiverns, which can be built on day 1, thanks to which the breakthrough power is on par with other towns.

With 3 stacks at the start, most towns jump up, while the Swamp only gets some Flies for the running start. That's not much. By the way, Tower has a similar situation — it gets little benefit from 3 stacks, all its power is concentrated in 1 stack. And Necro too.

Hence the logical desire to somehow boost the starting army. To that end, a VT version of the army surfaced — +5 Gnolls to the stack and 3-4 Flies instead of 2-4. It's a little, of course, but not much is needed there either, and this version has at least been playtested.

And about Conflux, we had 4 apple pies, 1 was taken away, and in return we were given three cherry ones, yeeaah... you need to think and understand whether this is a plus or not.

Kindergarten logic, sorry... the pies differ in weight, and it's unclear by how much. At least I'm basing this on VT playtesting, where Conflux has a similar gameplay experience, while you're tallying plusses and minuses in a column. That's not serious.

I played about 10 ±1 games, totaling about 50 replays of the 1.1.1 template. Not many, but not critically few either. Dungeon has become weaker — that's obvious to me (as someone who has played more games as Dungeon than all other towns combined, and that's considering my previously dense gaming schedule — in other words, a lot). And the difference is there for me; this isn't holding its ground, this is sinking in the swamp.

No, come on, are you seriously claiming that Dungeon has now become weaker than, say, Castle or Swamp (on 8mm6a)? IMHO, you're getting carried away by emotions...

In reply to Wicc

BlackFatal

11 years ago

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Spent 2 restarts each. Started playing. Didn't restart because of the artifacts and short paths. The economy was very bad. I exchanged twice for zero. In the second week, I started chasing the opponent. On 1.2.7, I took the main town and continued the chase. On 1.3.4, the opponent got tired of running and attacked me.
Thanks for the game.

BlackFatal

Faction Причал / Cove

Start Hero Анабель / Anabel

Main Hero Анабель / Anabel

Победа / Def

flate

Faction Причал / Cove

Start Hero Касмера / Casmetra

Main Hero Мириам / Miriam

Map Template: 8mm6a
Game Length: 134 days
Game Date: 5/25/2015
Reported: 5/25/2015 7:15 PM

BlackFatal 1467 → 1484 +17 ↑

flate 1517 → 1500 -17 ↓

Rated Sep 28, 2022

Accepted by opponent on 5/25/2015 7:38 PM

In reply to BlackFatal

flate

11 years ago

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BlackFatal

We each spent 2 resets. The game picked up. I didn't reset because of the artifacts and short routes. It went very badly in terms of resources. I exchanged twice, breaking even. In the second week, I started chasing my opponent. On 1.2.7, I took the main town and continued the chase. On 1.3.4, my opponent got tired of running and attacked me.
Thanks for the game.

In reply to KobRa_RR

Wicc

11 years ago

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KobRa_RR

I knew Kostya would react to his favorite artwork))))
I wanted to sell it:rolleyes:

Black sphere. Sell. Completely?

In reply to Wicc

Javdet

11 years ago

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Wicc

According to Miriam, she's definitely good as a late-game unit, but taking her as a starter is a clearly negative move.

"I envy your confidence.")))
In my opinion, her late-game advantages far outweigh all the benefits of a strong start.

Added after 12 minutes

The_

Vampires that break through ANY defense that doesn't one-shot them in the first two turns.

Surprisingly concise phrase))
And I think there will be quite a few GG-s due to vampire losses. In the same concept of the third game, even one morale point can lead to a loss. And by the way, potions with golems and elementals are clearly not designed for fighting vampires. And how to kill wolves reliably, without a clear tactic, is still unclear.

In reply to Javdet

Wicc

11 years ago

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Javdet

In my opinion, its late-game advantages far outweigh all the benefits of a strong early game.

So far, all attempts to start with Miriam or switch to her in official games have ended in defeat. So, even if it does outweigh, it's not by much.

But even if you're right, the balance of heroes within a castle is structured in such a way that one is stronger in certain conditions, and another is stronger in other conditions.

In reply to Wicc

=Lizard=

11 years ago

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The Castle shines largely due to the variety of heroes. Personally, my starting preferences are as follows:

Jebus - Cassiopeia/Korkes Diamond - Jeremy/Korkes 8mm6a, 6lm10a - I usually take Cassiopeia myself, but Miriam is also a good option. Yes, it's not even about the late game, but rather about the crucial moments like 126-132 (when every cell of vision upon contact with the opponent is worth its weight in gold), she's very effective. 8xm8a (and any poor template) - Lina

P.S. In Might & Magic VI, if the opponent takes Cassiopeia, I also take Lina to balance the pace with the economy.

P.P.S. Illor is also an excellent hero. I don't take him as a starting hero (although sometimes it's a good option), but I happily switch to him when starting with Lina.