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Yeah. Plus, the overall moral standing of the players is generally higher.
I've been playing for quite some time, and in the TE/VT community, cheating scandals are very rare, which is why the level of trust is quite high. But among the SoD players, both ours and the foreign ones, there are constant arguments about this. And where there are no arguments, there are suspicions and personal blacklists.
Yes, a lot has already been written about this, but with a certain skill, cheating is like disrespecting yourself, and it's no coincidence that the best players are now mostly in the Fortress faction, and even the foreign ones too (we're not talking about Fil and others - there are always bad apples). I think the main reason for this is that people come to PLAY FOR FUN, not to satisfy their ambitions.
Yes, a lot has already been written about this, but with a certain level of skill, cheating is like disrespecting yourself, and it's no coincidence that the best players are now heavily involved in the competitive scene, and even foreigners too (we're not talking about various cheaters and the like - there's always a black sheep in the family) I think the main reason for this is that people come to PLAY FOR FUN, not to satisfy their ambitions.
Personally, I play Warlords of the North not because of the anti-cheat system, but simply because Warlords of the North is much more convenient and interesting; the anti-cheat system is a secondary concern.
Yes, HeroesWorld is inhabited by complete fools. Regarding the Technical Support post, it's accepted, and I managed to repeat Valiesca's moves without using a scroll. But the rest won't get off so easily — I specifically wrote that all the quirks of KillerVampire's game are not limited to what's shown in the screenshots.
If we're going to search for logic in the moves, the reasoning will be complex; it's advisable to load saves for those who are interested.
1. Searching for the Conservatory in the dark, the one where the scout hero went to level up — why was the necro spawn corner chosen specifically? A safe alternative is zone 9. What would have happened if those specified conservatories weren't in that direction? Apparently, we'd have had to go to zone 15, making a detour through rough terrain while dragging a huge army. Let's assume the player's skill is high enough to guess that there might be a passage to that zone in that direction. Why not go straight to zone 15 along the road from the Castle spawn — there's an unclaimed conservatory and a Pandora's Box there. We're going to level up, aren't we? Or is it not just that? Question: Were there any moments in the game where, while moving into the dark, we somehow failed to find conservatories/utopias/scrolls?
2. Well, there was such a moment. Day 215! This is when we enter the treasure zone, but for some unknown reason we don't go into the dark; instead we Dimension Door to the center (again removing artifacts without fear of Dimension Door — probably didn't have enough 8 minutes to equip the artifacts and position ourselves :)). Why?
3. Day 221 — again Dimension Door into the dark and again we stumble upon that much-needed cyclops, and again (recall the cleared conservatories in the screenshot — that's where the university and lighthouse are underground) after taking the cyclops, we leave. Again luck + inhuman skill (Paris Hilton Spotlight??:):))
4.
Quote: Day 214- amazing again, the trick is not only that Valiesca is positioning herself under a possible attack (if there were Dimension Door, Town Portal a week ago and it's been revealed), but also how she does it. That's a serious mistake on my part — I simply ran out of time, didn't manage to change gear and position for the battle. Then I spent your whole turn trembling, hoping I wouldn't get caught there with my pants down.
By the way, why remove the club at all? The teapot I can still understand — there's a hat with Dimension Door there. But the club???
5. About the Mage Guild
Besides building it in the Rampart Castle. At least two alternatives — the Necro castle, where construction could have started much earlier, and of course the Tower with an additional 4th and 5th level spell — yes, a bit later, but with a higher chance for Dimension Door. By the way, why does an experienced expert run around with four heroes until day 133?
6.
By the way, note the form of presenting the screenshot — it was taken at a moment when the map was still unexplored, hinting that the guy found everything in the dark. In reality, there's a scope above that I opened first thing with the scout hero, and then made the conclusions described above.
No, sir, the question is not at all about how the conservatories were found, although it is interesting why the university was ignored. Are we in a hurry somewhere again? The intrigue is as follows, and we await a detailed answer. Why, after collecting the conservatories, do the blue heroes hastily leave that territory? Is there an exit to the computers and the treasure zone for the crusaders? Or is it the spotlight again? Maybe the priority is to devour the central sandy treasure zone? But that doesn't happen — even the Hive isn't taken, and it's right by the road. In the center, only the Dragon Utopia is grabbed, and then the blues flee to the computers (orange, I think, if I'm not mistaken). Why? Why is zone 17 also ignored for the whole game? That's also an underground treasury just two steps from the home spawn?
7. And finally, day 112
Dr. House's Clinic
The thought was this — since there are 2 roads, first send Turis with the army to the left to see what's there. If there's something, then run Valya there; otherwise, return the army and run upwards.
That's why Valya took 1 step down the road, not up — to transfer the troops to Turis. The loss of tempo is minimal; an informed choice is more important here.
Then Turis saw the swamp behind the teleport, so the home computer is there, which is why Valya ran there. And the road to the center was scouted on the 4th day by the scout hero.
Besides — if a maphacker were playing, he would have taken a step from the mill to the right, not left — since he'd run there anyway. So Valya's maneuver is, on the contrary, evidence of clean play.
A step to the left could only be made by a fool or a schizophrenic, since even the computer suggests not going into the snow but bypassing it by the road down.
But apparently, the technical progress is not granted to the spirits. The thing is, the miracle program Asma sometimes allows making replays. And on it, you can see that it's not Turis who goes left first, but Valiesca right away :D :D Shall we call it a day?
No, dear spirit, if you continue to write that my text contains nonsense, you will be categorically sent far to Yukh, where you might belong. Especially since you yourself didn't miss the opportunity to falsely distort my phrases and in some places outright lie (about the pebble :)).
Good health to you!
P.S. And why didn't the TrueWT players advise after day 126, instead of going to the center, to just go to the swamp castle (like a rush ))))?
No, dear spirit, if you continue to write that my text contains nonsense, you will be fundamentally sent far away to Yuh, where, perhaps, you belong. Especially since you yourself did not miss the opportunity to falsely distort my phrases and in places shamelessly lie (about the pebble :) )
Dear Oelm, an accusatory speech must be composed in such a way that it cannot be nitpicked in such simple ways.
That is, you need to present not 30++ meaningless episodes, but only 2-3 ironclad ones. A choice at a right-left fork can almost never qualify as such.
The amount of nonsense in the text is indeed off the charts (well, objectively, no offense). It's suitable for spinning yarns, but for an accusatory speech, alas. I still don't understand the complaint about the pebble and the Dragon Fly Hive — exactly one example of an untaken Dragon Fly Hive was given in the accusatory speech, before and after which it was stated that this was a trend. If it's a trend, then provide the other cases. However, this still won't achieve anything because there are quite many reasons to take/not take Dragon Fly Hives.
1. Searching for a Griffin Conservatory in the dark, where the scout hero went to level up, why specifically the corner of the necro respawn?
Why not? A large, uncleared safe area. Plus the level-up tree is visible. Ideal for leveling a scout.
A safe alternative is zone 9.
Well, that's also an option, but another was chosen — there's nothing to reproach here.
What would have happened if those Griffin Conservatories hadn't been in that direction? Apparently — then we would have had to go to zone 15, making a detour through rough terrain, dragging a huge army along.
You could have simply split up, giving the army to the scout hero who was chasing after him.
I still don't understand the complaint about the stone and the relic – in the closing argument, exactly one instance of an unclaimed relic was cited, before and after which it was stated that this was a trend. If it's a trend, then provide the other instances.
Let's look at the saves, let's analyze...
Why not? A large, uncleaned, safe area. Plus, the upgrade tree is visible. It's perfect for leveling up a weak hero.
Quote: A safe alternative is zone 9. That's also an option, but a different one was chosen; there's nothing to criticize here.
Quote: What if there weren't any of the mentioned conservatories in that direction? Apparently, then they would have to go to zone 15, making a detour through rough terrain, dragging a huge army with them. They could have simply split up, giving the army to the weak hero who was following them.
We're burning rags – we're laughing.
That is, you need to provide not 30++ meaningless episodes, but only 2-3, but very convincing ones. The choice at the fork in the road, left or right, can hardly ever be such.
2-3 very convincing ones are indeed a utopia (not a dragon utopia) – there are no such very convincing episodes, and there can't be. And usually, a map hacker wouldn't allow them. Any leap of faith can eventually be explained as one well-known player does – "why not?".
I think it's not me who's talking nonsense, but you don't understand what I'm writing. You should first carefully study the saves, and then object. Even in the saves you provided, it's clear that the blue player's route choice is not obvious throughout the game. And the example with 112 is just the beginning, by the way – it's symptomatic; I won't post their movements here in full, as there's a lot of interesting stuff there. But that's for private study. By the way, it's often difficult to argue with you – you write part of the text as if arguing with a fool – "why not?", and then suddenly you turn into a mega-expert on the subject. You should decide on something and stick to one line.
P.S. About the "rags" – no, I'm really surprised by such nonsense.
They could have simply split up, giving the army to the weak hero who was following them.
What kind of nonsense is that? Who is he counting on? It's even unpleasant to argue against it. If that were the case, the same could be done after taking the conservatories. But for some reason, it happens exactly as I wrote; maybe the medium was drunk. The weak hero goes down with an army, clearly not to clear the spawn in zone 15. He doesn't split up anywhere. He just goes down. The question is not why he goes there, but whether there were any episodes during the game when a weak hero with an army went to the wrong place. That's the question.
P.P.S. since you perceive about 50% of the information I write, again
Quote: 1. Searching for a conservatory in the dark, why did the weak hero go to level up in the corner of the necropolis spawn? Why not? A large, uncleaned, safe area. Plus, the upgrade tree is visible. It's perfect for leveling up a weak hero.
I'm waiting for saves from TrueVT players or anyone else, when a weak hero with an army of 23 liches, dragons, and angels goes to level 21+ to clear the spawn in the dark. Because that's the best thing to do!!!
P.P.P.S.
If you really can't grasp the arguments I'm making, then we can discuss this in private, because I won't keep answering explanations about move 112 or finding hives, which anyone can see, but you can't
In my opinion, it's not me who's being delusional, but you who doesn't get what I'm writing about. You should have studied the saves carefully first before objecting. Even in the saves that were posted, it's clear that the blue player's route choice was highly non-obvious throughout the entire game. And the example with 112 is just the beginning, by the way — a symptomatic one; I'm not going to post their full movements here, but there's quite a lot of interesting stuff there. That's for private study, so to speak. By the way, it's sometimes very difficult to argue with you — you write part of the text with arguments as if talking down to someone—why not, just in case you suddenly turn into a mega-expert on the game mechanics. You should really decide on a stance first and stick to one line.
Well, I have decided — I don't really care if this guy cheated or not, I don't know him, I haven't crossed paths with him in tournaments and likely never will, since he's a true SoD player.
I see this as a role-playing game — you're the prosecutor, I'm the defense attorney; my personal opinion here is secondary. So don't try to convince me of anything; you need to convince the public and the AC.
And, of course, "every word you say will be used against you." Therefore, suggestions to look for strange places myself are out of place here — you need to look for them, and I need to offer explanations for them.
The absence of movement errors can only be an argument if the percentage is truly outrageous. That is, not in one game, but in a whole series of games. Because playing one game without obvious mistakes is not too difficult a task. There are plenty of generations that can be steamrolled without a single tough choice.
But if you want to build an accusation based on a single game, you need to look for harsher episodes — moves that are clearly negative with a closed map, but positive with an open one. And make sure there aren't any cases of the opposite — positive with a closed map, but negative with an open one.
Say, the episode with not taking the Hive in the desert clearly fits into the second category. Although you, with a persistence worthy of a better cause, are trying to pin it on the case.
As for what goes into the first category — I don't even know off the top of my head. So far, all the moves I've seen are either positive or near-neutral with a closed map (like where to build a tower, where to run a weak hero to level up, which way to go at a fork, etc.). Or mutually negative (like not taking the Griffin Conservatory with a secondary hero).
A benchmark here could be Razor's jump — strongly negative with a closed map and noticeably positive with an open one. Point out episodes of a similar caliber, and we'll discuss them.
Arguments like "he jumped and found something" work if there really are many such episodes that can't be explained by probability theory. But jumping and finding something once, twice, three, four, five times has happened to many. You need to look for episodes like "it was obvious he should have jumped there, but he jumped in the other direction and found something."
1. I don't think Andrey-Brito's move was a bad one. By the way, on slow roads, moving off-road seems justified. Here, however, moving aimlessly off-road just looks like a waste of time. Isn't that a negative aspect of the move? Don't talk about him intending to crash. After taking the Conservatories, he doesn't do that; he goes off-road. So, if the Conservatories hadn't been there, he would have done exactly the same thing. Meanwhile, considering the game's duration, it's risky to leave an uncaptured Consulate, the one in zone 15. Let's say if I suddenly acquired a Keep somewhere. Then I would take his home Castle and the Consulate as well.
2. Well, if you really want something really bad with a closed map, here's zone 17 with Utopia and Hives. If the map were unknown to the opponent, giving me this zone would mean giving me Utopia and other valuable resources. But they don't even scout it.
3. Moving into the snowy Treasury where Utopia is located. This is also a bad move with a closed map; there's no land viewer, and there's no certainty that it's a corner location, let alone a rich one. Running around in the snow with a penalty is clearly amusing from a strategic point of view.
4. It seems that everyone already has enough arguments except for Wick, and I don't play role-playing games – that's more for corporate events.
Here, moving a weak unit into the wilderness simply looks like a loss of tempo. Isn't this a disadvantageous move?
No. Weak units run around in the wilderness because tempo isn't as critical for them as it is for stronger units.
In this case, the weak unit's goal is quite prosaic – to gain a few levels. This can be done both on roads and in the wilderness, especially since there's no particular rush.
Don't write about it crashing.
I brought this up as an option of what can be done with it after reaching the necessary level. Of course, the player can make a different decision.
2. Well, if you really want something very disadvantageous with a closed map, here's zone 17 with Utopia and Hive. If the map were unknown to the opponent, giving me this zone would mean giving me Utopia and other valuable resources. But they don't even scout it.
In Might and Magic 6, a lot of things aren't scouted. The map is large, there are few heroes, and there isn't enough time to explore everything. Wilderness treasure locations are often ignored in favor of other targets. Very often, they are left "for later," when everything else has already been taken, and there's nothing else to do. In this game, there don't seem to be such episodes; there's always something to take in foreign lands.
I wouldn't have scouted this treasure location right away either, and in this case, the opponent is clearly at a lower level.
3. Moving into a snowy treasure location where Utopia is located. This is also a disadvantageous move with a closed map; there's no map vision, and there's no certainty that it's a corner location and, moreover, a rich one. Running around in the snow with a penalty is clearly amusing from a strategic point of view.
The fact that corner zones are usually large (and, consequently, rich) is probably only unknown to you. If it weren't for the snow, the move would be positive. Considering the snow, it's almost neutral. And considering the vision, it's slightly positive.
Besides, what are the alternatives? Where else can Vale go to gain experience, given her current location?
It seems that you don't really understand the method of catching cheaters. Write an accusatory speech in the format:
1) Episode 1. Positive move with a closed map - A (as well as A1, A2, etc.), argumentation. Disadvantageous move with a closed map - B (chosen by the player), argumentation.
With an open map, move B is positive, and move A (as well as A1, A2, etc.) is disadvantageous.
2) Episode 2. similarly
and so on.
Then there will be something to talk about. That is, for each move that seems strange to you, you should indicate an obviously more advantageous alternative with a closed map that the opponent did not use.
At the same time, you should make an allowance for luck – for the opponent's skill, for possible mistakes, and just for luck. If the puzzle still doesn't fit together, then you can talk about cheating. So far, this is not obvious from your words (well, objectively, I'm not just making things up).
3. It seems that, in general, everyone has had enough arguments except for Vikka.
Have you learned to read minds, or do you automatically interpret silence in your favor? I have the feeling that the viewers either don't care or are munching on popcorn, waiting for the events to unfold.
Yeah, sure, now I’m going to write in your format. Exhausting! When you decided to accuse Britvichka of cheating, you didn’t have any format yourself. And I certainly won’t either. A thorough analysis of the saves is sufficient for a prepared player; for mere viewers who aren’t willing to dive into the intricacies of the process, that’s more than enough.
You’re clearly flaunting your knowledge of 8mm6. And yet, this isn’t the first time you’ve ended up with egg on your face. One more blunder, and I simply won’t take part in this farce anymore. Those who need to will draw their own conclusions.
The fact that corner zones are usually large (and consequently rich) is probably unknown only to you. If not for the snow, the movement would be positive. With the snow, it’s roughly neutral. And factoring in the observation tower, it’s slightly positive.
Yes, I’m unable to determine the presence of an observation tower, because snowy terrain didn’t necessarily have to indicate a Tower castle. Apparently, you’ve gotten too deep into the role of a maphacker.
2.
2. In mm6, plenty of things simply don’t get scouted. The map is large, there are few heroes, and the pace isn’t enough for everything. Roadless treasure zones are the first to be ignored. Very often they’re left "for later," when everything else has already been eaten and there’s nothing left to do. In this game, there didn’t seem to be such episodes; there was always something to devour in overseas lands.
I too wouldn’t have scouted that treasure zone right away, but here the opponent is clearly below your level.
No, again everyone on HeroesWorld is an idiot: the screenshot is for the true viewer and chief crap-slinger Vikus:
But I would certainly have scouted that treasure zone, the road to which takes about 1000 MP from the blue faction’s native spawn. Maybe it’s time to wrap things up. If you can’t calm down, make a separate poll, and try to sway the opinion of the HeroesWorld residents and others in your favor with your fake arguments. Good luck.
Yeah, right, I'll start writing in your style now. You're killing me!
Unfortunately, both the prosecutor and the lawyer in real court cases are bound by the criminal procedure code. Personal creativity lies only in the choice of arguments, not in the format of their presentation to the court.
The method I mentioned allows you to separate simply suspicious moments from obviously cheating ones. If you look at the saves of any top player on 8mm6, you can see a lot of moments of varying degrees of suspicion, especially if the player won - many decisions are made intuitively.
But there are very few obviously cheating moments, so a high concentration of them may be grounds to bring charges. In fact, that's what I'm suggesting you present.
When you decided to accuse Britva of cheating, you didn't have any format.
Reread the discussion log of Britva's case - you'll see exactly the format I mentioned. That is, it was said that Britva's move was negative (with a closed map), alternative positive moves were shown (obvious for a player of Britva's level). You can argue with individual arguments, but the format was strictly adhered to.
You are clearly showing off your knowledge of 8mm6. And you're messing up again.
And where did I mess up? And moreover, where is it happening for the first time? Something is glitching with you, comrade...
One more blunder, and I simply won't participate in this circus. Those who need to will draw their own conclusions.
So be it... participating is a voluntary matter. Just if you want your opinion to carry some weight, you should not spit saliva, but present your thoughts in such a way that they reach the listeners and influence them. Humanity has developed many methods for this over its history. For example, the aforementioned procedural code.
Yes, I am not able to determine the presence of vision, as the snowy territory does not necessarily have to indicate the presence of a Tower Castle.
But first, the Tower was taken, and then Valya went into the snow. Taking a village is a positive move, even if there is no vision there.
And I would definitely scout out this treasure, the road to which takes about 1000 movement points from the native spawn of the blue faction.
And so what? When did the army last pass by it? When did Valya last hang out there? At what point was there extra time to clear this treasure and send a hero there? And most importantly, why do it if there is a huge road network with a bunch of treasures along the way?
And the fact that it is nearby is rather an argument to leave it for later - like, you can always take it, first you need to eat the distant treasures while the opponent doesn't get ahead. Personally, I would get to this treasure around week 4, no earlier. And many wouldn't get to it at all.
And this is generally a standard of the game on 8mm6 - to ignore your corner and off-road dead-end treasure, and eat the center and distant treasures. And clean up your treasures only if the others run out or the opponent drives you out of there (which, by the way, happened in your game). If you are not aware of this fact, all that remains is to sympathize and wish you to improve.
So I can make a bunch of such screenshots in a lot of games. 8mm6 is good because you can't eat it all. And also because it is completely unnecessary.
So what? When was the last time an army passed by? When was the last time Valya hung out there? At what point was there enough momentum to break through that defense and send a unit in? And most importantly, why do this when there's a huge road network with tons of defenses along the way?
For example, instead of sending a unit with a large army deep into the Necropolis to attack the Cons in the darkness.
I don't think the current composition of the Arbitration Committee (or at least a large part of it) is competent enough to analyze controversial situations in the game.
Oelm, Pavel, have you considered that the overwhelming majority of forum participants (even those who are not new) are no more competent than the current composition of the Arbitration Committee, and, frankly, I don't think you are an exception either. Therefore, this topic (again, IMHO) doesn't really have much meaning. In the topic you mentioned about the "Razor," there was one episode that was easy to study and form one's own opinion, which many did, so there was a point to it. But here, I doubt many people will seriously study anything; I, for example, won't, precisely because I don't consider myself more competent than the Arbitration Committee.
Javdet
