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Posts from TBM - Tournaments balance mod Auto-translated

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#215
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Witness
Did you watch the tournament? The Dwarves were crushing everyone. They need to be nerfed, and severely. The second overpowered faction is Humans. Training 20 Paladins a week is excessive. Either the second building for retraining should be removed, or the cost of training Paladins should be increased. Let them train Archers. Dwarves should have the Rune of Exorcism, Elemental Resistance, and Magic Ward banned. In the tournament, I think everyone saw that they are completely overpowered.
The fact that someone played well with Dwarves doesn't mean they need to be nerfed. If Orcs get a super ability, and also take "Wrath of Fire" in their education, they immediately get the third level of Wrath, should they be nerfed too?
The Undead rely on numbers and the self-sufficiency of their army; the fact that they have low stats is not a problem at all, because on the second week, the Necropolis can be built, and the Necromancer doesn't need to enter the city for two or three weeks, just clearing out neutrals and gathering an army.

Added 5 minutes later
Witness
Demons are usually played as archers, in the Chaos league.
Well, Demons are mostly played as archers only because of the 4th-level archers, because it's very difficult without archers at the beginning, and the Dark Elves, if you didn't know, have Chaos as their main skill, just like the Undead have Summoning, and the Orcs and Demons have Attack, etc. A Warlock without magic is like a Necromancer with Light magic, it's pure absurdity
"Астельнаир, мод добавляющий новых существ и многое другое (разработка)"
И пусть Эльрат осветит твой путь
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#216
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if you think about it, it's easy to see that leveling up SA (which, by the way, is not available in the mod and is very situational) is not the same as using runes, which are easily accessible, cost almost nothing (and provide benefits that are almost as great as those of the 3rd level Wrath skill, but never mind).
Нет войне.
In reply to Gerter
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#217
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Gerter
If you think about it, it's easy to understand that upgrading SA (by the way, it's not available in the mod and is very situational) is not the same as using runes, which are easily accessible and cost almost nothing (and give advantages that are almost as great as the 3rd level of Wrath, but okay).
I disagree. The third level of Blood Wrath is very powerful in itself, if only because the creatures are strengthened by a factor of two (the same goblins, +2 to life, crippling strike, and the enemy does not retaliate), and for Cyclops, it's even better (they gain an aura of terror and attack with fear). At the same time, the Elven "True Luck" and the Dwarven "Absolute Defense" are also very powerful; the former kill almost with one attack (the damage is not even doubled, but 2.5 times due to "Elven Luck"), and the latter are almost impossible to kill (not only do the dwarves start retaliating against everyone who attacks them, but they also stand in "Defensive Formation," and with the Dragonform rune, it's just overpowered). But not all super abilities are that great. "Arcane Knowledge" isn't particularly useful, although knowing all the spells is quite cool. The Demonic "Ur-Gosh's Call," the Necromantic "Scream of Horror," and the Dark Elf "Fury of the Elements" I consider to be average, because they seem good, but they don't measure up to the top three. Also, the Human super ability remains questionable; doubled damage from Overseer, in my opinion, isn't that great; it could have been made better.
But this is just my opinion
"Астельнаир, мод добавляющий новых существ и многое другое (разработка)"
И пусть Эльрат осветит твой путь
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#218
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How often do you see that in online games? Or maybe it's time to use your brain and realize that the convenience of progression and implementation is much more important than some pseudo-overpowered things.
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In reply to Gerter
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#219
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Gerter
Do you often see them in online games? Or maybe it's time to use your brain and realize that the convenience of leveling up and implementation is much more important than some pseudo-overpowered things.
Have you ever wondered why no one picks them? Because they require two things: remembering what works for whom and luck to not mess up the chance of getting them. If the first isn't a problem, the second can be honed through long and persistent study and memorization of what to take and in what order. If desired, on level 24 (and they are mostly found on such levels), you can easily take them.
"Астельнаир, мод добавляющий новых существ и многое другое (разработка)"
И пусть Эльрат осветит твой путь
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#220
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Can you provide proof of the games?
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In reply to Gerter
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#221
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IMO, there's a simpler way to address the issue of game duration – use smaller maps in tournaments (and generally in online games) than those currently used. As for preventing spamming of the "rush" tactic, this can be addressed by manipulating map templates – by playing with the relative positions of different zones and the difficulty of traversing between them.
P.S. I am definitely against forcing heroes to engage after a certain time – I think the absence of excessively large territories will solve this problem.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#222
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I don't understand why it's necessary to defend against "rush" tactics spam – it's perfectly normal if players have the option to end a match early, for example, by playing against a weaker opponent – why waste time? This should be addressed when the vast majority of games end with a rush. Or when rushes can be so overwhelming that they are impossible to defend against.

The Knight's Vigil perk is so weak and situational that I suggested giving Knights a special ability (SA) instead, with tripled damage. A Knight's SA would be a good replacement for the current perk.

Regarding the game duration – that's not a question for me; I have nothing to do with the development of Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes. If I did, we would be finishing matches at 211, not 321.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
Сайт проекта - пока неактивен
Автор Асимметричных шахмат
In reply to Nargott
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#223
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Nargott
This needs to be addressed, especially when the vast majority of games end with a rush. Or when rushes can be so overwhelming that they are impossible to defend against.
That's exactly what I'm talking about!!! - If we try to normalize game times by reducing map sizes, we may unfortunately encounter the aforementioned problems.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#224
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Or we might not get it at all. I mean, we should first make sure that rushing strategies will be dominant before nerfing them.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
Сайт проекта - пока неактивен
Автор Асимметричных шахмат
In reply to Уриэль Септим Х
#225
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Added 5 minutes later
[/U]
Well, demons are mostly machinists only because of the 4th-level archers, because it's very difficult without archers at the beginning, and dark elves, if you didn't know, have chaos as their main skill, just like necromancers have summoning, and orcs and demons have attack, etc. A warlock without magic is like a necromancer with light magic, it's just absurd.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that orcs only have rage. Yes, Berserk is cool, but dwarves have runes and absolute protection. And that's better than just rage. I know about the chaos skill of dark elves and the machinist demons. I'm saying that it's too predictable, and it's very difficult to build other types of units.
In reply to Witness
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#226
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Witness
I'm saying that it's too predictable, and it's very difficult to assemble other builds.
If it's too predictable, then the defense is also predictable, which means that players can take a step to the right or left of this predictability. Knowing that there will be a Demon Engineer, you can take control of the machines, and knowing that there will be control over the machines, you can take the rest of the machines, so that there is a 1 in 3 chance of subduing a ballista.
In general, if we're talking about rushing and other things, it seems to me that this mod could speed up the development of heroes, so that they meet not in the middle, as it is now (and as practice shows, the middle is different for everyone), but at the end, when the hero is fully upgraded, with all the perks and abilities that the player wanted. And it would be possible to make a huge map, with huge locations and strong mobs (or make it by zones, with the player's Castle in the center, around it a weak zone, around which a medium zone, around all this a zone with strong mobs, and from the last zone there is a transition to the central zone without mobs, from where you can go to the strong zones of other players), then there would be no rush, as the mobs would not let you through, and it would take a long time to go, but all races would not be offended, and demons (you could level up Nimue with her special ability), and necromancers (with a large number of mobs, you could raise a sufficient army)
But this is my vision of solving the current situation. And in general, if we're talking about tournaments, then everything should be the same, and only resourcefulness and ingenuity will be the main advantage
"Астельнаир, мод добавляющий новых существ и многое другое (разработка)"
И пусть Эльрат осветит твой путь
In reply to Уриэль Септим Х
#227
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Uriel Septim X
If it's too predictable, then the defense is also predictable, hence players can take a step to the right or left of this predictability. Knowing that there will be a demon-engineer, you can take control of the machines, and knowing that there will be control over the machines, you can take the rest of the machines, so that there is a 1 in 3 chance of subduing a ballista.
In general, if we are talking about rushing and other things, it seems to me that this mod could accelerate the development of heroes, so that they meet not in the middle, as it is now (and as practice shows, the middle is different for everyone), but at the end, when the hero is fully upgraded, with all the perks and abilities that the player wanted. And it would be possible to make a huge map, with huge locations and strong mobs (or make it by zones, with the player's Castle in the center, around it a weak zone, around which a middle zone, around all this a zone with strong mobs, and from the last zone a transition to the central zone without mobs, from where you can go to the strong zones of other players), then there would be no rush, as the mobs would not let you through, and it would take a long time to get there, but all races would not be offended, and demons (you could level up Nimue with his special ability), and necromancers (with a large number of mobs, you could raise a sufficient army)
But this is my vision of solving the current situation. And in general, if we are talking about tournaments, then everything should be the same, and only resourcefulness and ingenuity will be the main advantage.

In field battles, there will only be a ballista and a tent, but who will try to control the tent if it heals a maximum of 100 HP (with a ring for 200). But the ballista can do some serious damage. Regarding the map: how much time will it take to play on it? Now, large maps in tournaments are played for 10 hours. And this one will have to be played for about 20 hours. This is very long for the player, the judges, and the viewers.
In reply to Уриэль Септим Х
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#228
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Uriel Septim X
back then, there wouldn't be any rushing, as mobs wouldn't be allowed, and it would take a long time to get there.
That's a shame:
1) Mobs aren't allowed - no rushing.
2) Mobs aren't allowed - no scouting of the opponent's actions.
3) Mobs aren't allowed - no harassing enemy objects with small units.
4) It takes a long time to get there - no timed attacks.
5) In addition, on the current maps, there are no secondary towns in Team-Based Maps - no expansion.

What does strategy degenerate into then? Into pure linear development, an RPG with mob grinding and a tactical battle at the end. Into something where everyone plays in their own sandbox 90% of the time, with no interaction with the opponent.

Large maps are good from the point of view of a single playthrough (campaign, single-player), but in multiplayer, you need to play dozens and hundreds of games, and the scenario of "developing to the very end with all the perks and abilities" is not exactly diverse.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
Сайт проекта - пока неактивен
Автор Асимметричных шахмат
In reply to Nargott
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#229
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Nargott
This is unfortunate:
1) Mobs prevent entry - no rushes are possible.
2) Mobs prevent entry - no scouting of the opponent's actions.
3) Mobs prevent entry - no harassing enemy objects with small units.
4) It takes a long time to get there - no timed attacks.
5) In addition, current maps in turn-based multiplayer mode lack secondary cities - no expansion.

What does strategy degenerate into then? Into pure linear development, an RPG with mob clearing and a tactical battle at the end. Into everyone playing in their own sandbox 90% of the time, with no interaction with the opponent.

Large maps are good from the point of view of a single playthrough (campaign, single-player), but in multiplayer, you need to play dozens or hundreds of games, and the scenario of "developing to the very end with all the perks and abilities" is not exactly diverse.

I agree 100%, I was just thinking about secondary cities myself - after all, Heroes is primarily a strategy game, and there is almost no strategic element in "tournament-style final battles" - players essentially play separately from each other, often meeting only in one single battle, after which the game ends - having a large number of cities makes the game more dynamic, making it necessary to defend not only the capital and protect the main army led by the main hero, but also to defend secondary cities, because otherwise you will simply be overwhelmed by numbers, no matter how strong your main hero is, and therefore the value of mines increases and remains throughout the game (resources will always be scarce), plus there will be a need to have additional heroes to defend secondary cities and scout territories. Losing one battle will often mean absolutely nothing; cities will be besieged again and again, changing flags several times during the game, and in the end, the one whose behavior (strategy) during the game is more successful will win - you can't just sit and get fat - you need to scout, capture and develop cities and mines, have several strong heroes, lure the enemy into traps, outplay them in logistics, constantly control territories, and distribute forces on the world map wisely, instead of relying on one main hero and following the tactic of total clearing. P.S. For me personally, the first mission for Erutan (Heroes 4: The Gathering Storm) was very revealing
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...