General questions and discussions. — Horn of the Abyss / HOTA

Wicc

8 years ago

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HellLighT

What about removing the simplest imbalance... for example, limiting the hero's special ability bonus to a maximum of 100% (level 20), and there won't be any Torgrim with 100% spell reduction and devilish logistics with 5k+ movement, impenetrable Tazar and full map vision from level 30 Dungeon scouts.

It's easier to remove level 30 Dungeon units with Jeb.

Tepluijja

There was no need to create new must-have skills.

It's not a must-have at all.

In reply to HellLighT

nik312

8 years ago

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HellLighT

You guys are doing a great job, trying to remove the element of randomness, etc., and delving into complex aspects, but what about removing the simplest imbalance... for example, limiting the bonus from a hero's specialization to a maximum of 100% (level 20), and there won't be any Thorgimms with 100% spell reduction or Devilish Logisticians with 5k+ movement points, impenetrable Tazar units, or scouts from the Dungeon faction at level 30 who can see the entire map.

The problem with hero specializations in a team was briefly mentioned (and not only in relation to the Dungeon faction), but this specific solution wasn't considered. The idea is interesting, although there are still some questions about it in this form (if you're interested, I'll elaborate later), but overall, your post raises the probability that the problem won't be completely ignored.

HellLighT

8 years ago

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The "prison" example is just one instance; prolonging the game against a specialized opponent (when you don't have a counter) shouldn't be a one-way street to self-destruction! If you're making balance changes, do it consistently across the board. So, don't just remove one thing; you need to adjust the overall balance. Is there another way? Why? Are you avoiding applying a previously used solution? Because that hasn't been done before. And even if it's just advice "from the audience," if the advice is sound and there are no visible alternatives, why not use it?

=Lizard=

8 years ago

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I tested version 1.5.3 and have a suggestion for updating the "resistance" skill: in addition to reducing spell power in terms of damage dealt by impact spells, it should also reduce the area of effect of enemy area-of-effect spells. For example: with an expert-level berserk, the area of effect is 19 cells. With an advanced resistance skill, this area should be reduced to 7 cells, as with an advanced berserk. With an expert-level resistance, the expert-level berserk becomes the base level. With resistance, mass slow should not affect everyone, but only a certain area, depending on the level of resistance, etc. Of course, the numbers can still be adjusted.

In this case, resistance would actually be useful. What it is now, in my opinion, is not good; it's worse than it was before. These are the words of an old veteran who came up with a lot of new features.

In reply to =Lizard=

Pridu

8 years ago

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=Lizard=

I tested version 1.5.3 and have a suggestion for updating the "resistance" skill: in addition to reducing spell power in terms of damage dealt by impact spells, it should also reduce the area of effect of enemy's area-of-effect spells. For example: with an expert-level berserk, the area is 19 cells. With an advanced resistance, this area should be reduced to 7 cells, as with a basic berserk. With an expert-level resistance, the area becomes the same as with a basic berserk. Mass slow with resistance would not affect everyone, but only a certain area, depending on the level of resistance, etc. Of course, the numbers can still be adjusted.

In this case, resistance would actually be useful. What it is now, personally, I don't like; it's worse than it was. These are the words of an old veteran who came up with a lot of new features.

If it's done this way, people will switch from logic to resistance.

In reply to =Lizard=

ЯR

8 years ago

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=Lizard=

I tested version 1.5.3 and have a suggestion for updating the "resistance" skill: in addition to reducing spell power in terms of damage dealt by impact spells, it should also reduce the area of effect of enemy's area-of-effect spells. For example: with an expert-level berserk, the area is 19 cells. With an advanced resistance, this area should be reduced to 7 cells, as with a basic berserk. With an expert resistance, the area becomes the same as with a basic berserk. For mass slow, with resistance, it wouldn't affect everyone, but only a certain area depending on the resistance level, etc. Of course, the numbers can still be adjusted.

In this case, resistance would actually be useful. What it is now, personally, I don't like; it's worse than it was. These are the words of an old veteran who came up with a lot of new features.

The suggestion regarding berserk seems logical; anti-magic, blindness, teleportation, etc., could also be applied to it. However, the logic doesn't quite fit with area-of-effect spells.

baratorch

8 years ago

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regarding mass spells, it can be like this: the spell will definitely not work on a certain percentage of stacks, and which stacks it will be is determined randomly. in total: it is very similar to the original resistance, but with some guarantee.

In reply to baratorch

Grando

8 years ago

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I think I understand why the developers got tired of working on the project and it was put on hold:

Seriously, guys, do you realize what you're doing by turning resistance into a one-sided red aura?
A two-sided red aura was already overpowered. And after spending ten years gathering the courage to remove it from the game, you immediately add a new, even stronger, one-sided red aura?

First, you need to set a limit on the percentage, above which resistance won't go in the near future. 100% resistance, if it starts working on everything, will just be a new overpowered ability. :smile18:

For balance, the idea of Hell limiting special abilities is much more important, and a resistance percentage of 10-20-30 (or something like that), with a maximum of 2 times the special ability, would make resistance a very useful skill. Maybe we should first try looking at these numbers in action, and then think about whether we need to go for something even more powerful?
Isn't what they've done with Torgrim, and how logistics, offense, armor, and now scout special abilities have always worked, an arithmetic error? Maybe we should fix that first?

In reply to =Lizard=

nik312

8 years ago

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=Lizard=

Tested 1.5.3, right off the bat a suggestion for updating the "Resistance" skill: in addition to reducing SP in terms of damage dealt by destructive spells, make it decrease the area of effect of the opponent's mass spells. For example: with Expert Fire, the area of Berserk is 19 tiles. Let it be that with Advanced Resistance, this area becomes like with Advanced Berserk - 7 tiles. With Expert Resistance - Expert Berserk becomes Basic. Mass Slow with Resistance - not on all units, but on some area depending on the Resistance level, etc. The numbers can of course be tweaked further.

In this case, Resistance would actually have a decent form. What it is now, personally I don't like, it's worse than it was. The words of a boy not, but an old WT player who came up with a bunch of innovations.

There is no goal to make Resistance a must-have skill and the sole and main counter to all magic. The game already has other ways to counter magic, and new ones will appear. But deliberately taking Resistance at, say, level 10-15, already knowing that the opponent is leveling a mage, now makes more sense and (more importantly) has a smaller variance in usefulness. Found some boots on top of that and boom, almost 50% reduction already. Yes, this is not a tool against Mass Slow and Berserk. But no one said that one skill should counter absolutely everything.

So removing isn't enough, you need to trim the edge, another way? Why?

Well, let me explain my point of view on this a bit (it may not 100% align with the team's point of view):
The main atmospheric strangeness is - why does progression suddenly stop? For all specialists in creatures and spells it continues continuously, but for skills it suddenly stops at level 20? Why the hell, asks level 50 Sandro from the campaign? And if we're going to limit everyone, then why exactly at level 20? What's so sacred about this level that skeletons stop gaining stats and Chain Lightning damage stops increasing? From the outside it looks like some random nonsense pulled out of thin air.

Well, the second point - is there really certainty that 100% skill enhancement at level 20 is even normal? Let's say, if you make the growth of all specializations 3-4% per level without a cap, then 100% would only be reached at levels 25-33, and you rarely get much higher online, no matter how long you drag it out, the map will end. A 60-80% bonus at level 20 is still noticeable, but not as crazy as 100%.

In reply to nik312

Grando

8 years ago

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nik312

And the second point is, are we absolutely sure that a 100% skill enhancement at level 20 is actually normal? For example, if we increase all specializations by 3-4% per level without a limit, then 100% will only be reached at levels 25-33, and in online games, you won't usually go much higher than that, no matter how long you play, because the map will eventually end. A 60-80% bonus at level 20 is still noticeable, but it's not as extreme as 100%.

This is a correct line of thinking.

HellLighT

8 years ago

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It's all quite simple because for experienced players, this isn't overpowered. The stats increase very slowly, but +22.5% defense, and that's only at a reasonable level 30, which can be reached in a longer game, is incredibly powerful... If you adjust everything based on percentages, as you suggest, people who are used to playing the regular Heroes games will get frustrated trying to understand the intricacies of these fixes. A slight, common-sense limit of 100% skill enhancement is still easy to grasp, which is why 20% is a good number. And one person's opinion isn't as important as the overall vision of the project, so I don't want to argue about individual opinions anymore. I've made my suggestion; it's up to the team to decide whether to accept it (perhaps with their own modifications) or reject it.

=Lizard=

8 years ago

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In the late game, logistics specialists get +2.5% per level. It's still quite powerful, but manageable, comparable to unit-based bonuses, for example. And it's easy to understand; it's just half the usual amount...

De_Luxe

8 years ago

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Bring back the old skin, I don’t like the changes!

Slyner

8 years ago

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I don't know where to ask, it's more of a general question related to the topic. Or maybe I should ask specifically in the HD mod thread? Because here we're discussing conceptual changes... - Is there an up-to-date description of the hota.ini parameters available? - Specifically, I'm interested in whether it's possible to enable this:

https://sites.google.com/site/heroes3hd/rus/description/extended-ui

Global acceleration of interaction with the map

- When visiting/picking up various objects on the map, the standard message window is not displayed, but the information is displayed in the information panel of the adventure window (like when picking up resources).

I assume that many options, including the one mentioned, are located in the HD+.Settings parameter, and I have no desire to empirically determine the purpose of its 15 arguments. I also can't reread several thousand pages of a couple of forums right now. A global Google search for the parameter didn't yield any information. Help! - Sys.CPU.ReduceUsage - Reduces CPU usage? How does it work?

Added 6 minutes later

Slyner

- specifically, I'm interested in whether it's possible to enable this:

Found it: UI.AdvMgr.SkipMapMsgs It's strange that it's not enabled by default, considering it's mentioned in the description...

=Lizard=

8 years ago

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Since there's already resistance in the game, wouldn't it make sense to implement a system where, when a hero with resistance uses a spell like Armageddon or Wave of Death, the damage dealt to their own units is reduced? Otherwise, it doesn't make sense: Thorgrim, casting Armageddon, damages his own units just as much as the enemy's, or even more (if the opponent also has resistance)!

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