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In reply to Medium_HP
Offline Medium_HP
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#3949
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Basically, I made it, although not exactly as I intended. It's based on the Hybrid_1.0 template, and it's definitely not a Spider map (unless Wicc insists, of course). - The starting zones and computer zones have the same contents and guards as in 6lm10a (with the possibility of Utopias appearing, etc.). - The nearby zones with villages have the same contents and guards, but instead of wood and ore mines, there are two valuable resource mines: 9 and 12 - crystals, 13 and 14 - mercury, 10 and 11 - sulfur. - Zones 15, 16, 23, and 24 are treasure zones with villages, filled like the corresponding zones in 6lm10a. Zones 15 and 16 have two gem mines each, and zones 23 and 24 have one gold mine each. The monsters are medium-strength. - Zones 17-22 are super-treasure zones, slightly poorer than in 6lm10a (without relic artifacts on the ground). The monsters are strong. - The paths from the treasure zones with villages are 6000, in the super-treasure zones 12500, and the rest are 3000. I generated it, and it seems to be working as expected, i.e., the roads are good, and I didn't see any one-way paths in the first 5 generations. The overall richness is roughly on par with 6lm10a. I think the gameplay will be similar to the 6lm10a variant, where wide paths can become impassable due to inconveniently placed one-way paths.
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Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline zoog
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#3950
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Hibryd_1.0 template
I wanted to run it 20 times, but it became clear after the first 5 generations – the red faction has a total of 12 roads, while the blue faction has 5. Another 5 generations reduced the gap to 22:16, but that won't be much consolation if the ratio ends up being 3:1 in favor of roads.
By the way, it's spelled "hybrid."
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Offline Medium_HP
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#3951
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zoog
I wanted to run it 20 times, but it became clear after the first 5 generations – the red one has a total of 12 roads, and the blue one has 5. Another 5 generations reduced the gap to 22:16, but that won't be much consolation if the ratio ends up being 3:1 in terms of roads.

Well, in my case, out of 5 generations, the total is 15-10, usually it's 3-2, only once it was 3-1, and after exiting through that single road, there are immediately a lot of forks, i.e., it's quite playable, there are practically no one-way roads. In any case, it's much worse with roads on 6LM.
It's written as "hybrid," by the way.

I named the template correctly, there was just a typo in the text, I fixed it, thanks.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline zoog
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#3952
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Well, in my case, out of 5 generations, the total score was 15-10.
Perhaps, with a demonstration of 20 generations, the result might be even more balanced, but I can share the maps – I actually had a score of 12:5, and I think that's a clear indicator that the template needs adjustment. It seems that even with forcing the placement of roads, blue will still have fewer roads within a distance of 2-3 respawn points (I tried placing villages next to the starting respawn points, resulting in 4:4 roads in 95% of cases, but blue still lacked 1-2-3 roads compared to red).
I see the solution only in asymmetry, but the guys won't understand.
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Offline Medium_HP
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#3953
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zoog
Perhaps, with 20 demonstration generations, the results might be more balanced, but I can share the maps – I actually had a 12:5 ratio, and I think that's a clear indicator that the template needs improvement.

"A clear indicator" seems a bit too categorical. Based on that principle, the other templates wouldn't be playable at all. It's better to have 1 road against three for the opponent than 0 against 1, as often happens on 6LM.
I've already mentioned here that I'm not aiming to create a perfect template, including one that is completely balanced in terms of roads. For now, it's enough for me to create one that is better than the existing ones. It seems to have worked; at least, there isn't the same road problem as on 6LM or 8XM12, and there isn't the same obvious default strategy as on 8MM6.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline Russel_lDHl
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#3955
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I created a template – a slightly modified version of 8mm6a, adjusted for roads and content, and 6lm10a, with a slightly altered zone size (it seemed to me that zones of this size result in fewer awkward layouts). As a result, most often, from the starting location, the player has 1 road and 1 off-road path (often a portal/elevator). This applies to both blue and red.
One-way paths did occur, but they were in zones reasonably far from the starting point and in 3 out of 15 generations. Moreover, in three generations, this was a portal to another zone in addition to an extensive road network; there was no single road leading to a portal for entry/exit.
Once, unfortunately, there was a generation with a road under the cliffs (I will try to figure out what caused this). But I definitely didn't notice any bias towards roads for either the red or blue player. In my opinion, this is a quite viable template for XL+U.
Welcome, try this mix.
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ICQ 99717727 message for game


Шаблон 6LM-8MM mix
Схема шаблона 6LM-8MM mix
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Offline zoog
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#3956
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Based on this principle, the other templates are simply unplayable.
Well, not all of them, just 6lm. Besides, the template is new, and it will still need to be refined, but in my opinion, it doesn't fulfill its main function. With a significant advantage in roads, Red will have a proportionally better scouting ability and a disproportionately lower chance of encountering a blockade on the first road.
at least there isn't such a problem with the roads as on 6lm or 8xm12
Do you mean 8xm12a? I haven't played it much, but it seems like the roads aren't that problematic there. However, the 6lm template is definitely for those who like extreme challenges.
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In reply to Russel_lDHl
Offline Medium_HP
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#3957
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Russel_lDHl
I made a template – slightly modified 8mm6a in terms of roads and content, based on 6lm10a, with a slightly altered zone size (as it seemed to me, zones of this size result in fewer awkward layouts). As a result, most often, from the starting location, the player has 1 road + one unpaved path (often – a portal/elevator). This applies to both the blue and red players.
One-way paths did occur, but in zones that were quite far from the starting point and in 3 out of 15 generations. Moreover, in three generations, this was a portal to another zone in addition to the extensive road network; there was no single road leading to a portal for entry/exit.
Once, unfortunately, there was a generation with a road under the cliffs (I will try to figure out why this happens). But I definitely didn't have a significant advantage in roads for the red or blue player. In my opinion, this is a quite viable template for XL+U.
Welcome, try this mix.

The description of the zones should be in terms of random and predefined (villages, mines) content. It's not very clear why there are guards of 9k and 12.5k in the center; it seems that 6k was always sufficient. There is also a nuance here: 9k is often visually indistinguishable from 6k, which can lead to losses. But overall, it looks interesting; in my opinion, if you adjust the guards, you can come up with a name.

Added 10 minutes ago
zoog
Not all, only 6lm.

At the same time, 6lm is the most played map today, which means that the principle, in fact, does not work and should not be applied when evaluating the template.
If the red player has a significant advantage in roads, the scouting will be proportionally better.
Not necessarily; to achieve a significant advantage in roads, a significant advantage in money on the chain and a suitable amount of gold are required, and the red player will have problems with this.
Do you mean 8xm12a? I haven't played it much, but it seems that there are no major problems with the roads.
Similarly, the blue player can get very few roads; it may be slightly less frequent than on 6lm, but it still happens too often.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline zoog
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#3958
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Medium_HP
This means that the principle, in practice, doesn't work and shouldn't be applied when evaluating a template.
Here, it's more like the "mice and cactus" principle, or perhaps people are simply afraid to play something unknown or unadvertised. 6lm is the most unbalanced template; blue has an inherent 25% advantage in winning.

Added 16 minutes later
Russel_lDHl
I made a template.
Yes, it's interesting; the balance on the paths is somehow slightly skewed in favor of blue; out of 20 generations, the score is 27:28. At first glance, you'd expect a large number of one-sided games to appear, but no, it only happened once out of 20 (the only path leading to a one-sided victory). I need to remember this combination.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#3959
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Dear mapmakers, just in case, I'd like to remind you that playing on an edited version of a map without the opponent's consent will be punished severely. I think this is self-explanatory, but it's better to reiterate it.
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In reply to zoog
Offline LuckyF
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#3960
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zoog
Here, it's more about the "mice and cactus" principle, or perhaps people are simply afraid to play something unknown and unadvertised. 6LM is the most unbalanced template; Blue has a built-in 25% advantage for winning.
It's simply impossible to read this "expert" opinion anymore. Your favorite searches for overpowered strategies in games without roads are clearly the epitome of balance. How can you evaluate a template if you don't even understand it? This is evident in the results of your games against very weak opponents, which, to put it mildly, are not in your favor. And finally, I have a positive win rate with Blue in 6LM, and I don't see any problems with it at all, considering the color trade.
discord: LuckyF#3482
icq: 681350680
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Offline Russel_lDHl
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#3961
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zoog

Yes, it's interesting; the balance on the paths is somehow shifted slightly in favor of blue; out of 20 generations, the score is 27:28. At first glance, there should be a large number of one-way paths, but no, only once out of 20 (the only path leading to a one-way path). I need to remember this combination.

Thank you for testing! I'm glad that I'm not the only one who got an equal score on the paths, without any significant deviations!
Later, as requested, I will create a more transparent image with the contents of the zones.
But I still suggest that those who are interested test it when they have time and write their opinion on the template and the resulting path maps.
ICQ 99717727 message for game


Шаблон 6LM-8MM mix
Схема шаблона 6LM-8MM mix
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Offline Wicc
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#3962
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Russel_lDHl
I created a template – slightly modified 8mm6a in terms of roads and content, based on 6lm10a, with a slightly altered zone size (it seemed to me that zones of this size result in less awkward layouts). As a result, most often, starting from the initial location, the player has 1 road and one off-road path (often a portal/lift). This applies to both the blue and red players.
One-way paths did appear, but in zones reasonably far from the starting point, and in 3 out of 15 generations. Moreover, in these three generations, it was a portal to another zone in addition to an extensive road network; there was no single road leading directly to a portal entrance/exit.
Unfortunately, once there was a generation with a road under the cliffs (I'll try to figure out why this happens). But I definitely didn't notice any bias towards more roads for either the red or blue player. In my opinion, this is a quite viable template for XL+U.
Feel free to try this mix.
Suggestions: change the guard of some passages:

19-27 9=>6
22-28 9=>6
11-20 6=>9
21-12 6=>9

This makes the guard system more logical and improves the "readability" of the template.

I also recommend making the passages to the corner treasure rooms single, not double. According to the author of the "8mm6a without one-way paths" template, this change resulted in one-way paths no longer being generated at all.

Also, it is unclear why the guard in the corner treasure rooms became 9. Is it now a super-treasure room? (I can't check the template's contents right now).
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Offline zoog
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#3963
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LuckyF
It’s just impossible to read this “expert” opinion anymore.
What does opinion have to do with it? This is statistics – /topic/at/737799/
And the score is completely irrelevant; I'm a very bad player. Maybe you can explain how to understand this pattern?
I don't see any problems with it at all, considering the trade-off for color.
So, how much would you give for a 25% chance of ending up nowhere? 2, 3, or 4 thousand? And even then, blue will still have a 75% chance of getting on normal roads, and money will be spent for nothing. It's like roulette.
Wicc
I also recommend making the passages into corner treasure zones single instead of double.
They are often in penalty off-road areas, and with a single passage, sometimes you won't find an entrance even after a whole day.
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Offline LuckyF
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#3964
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zoog
What does opinion have to do with it, this is statistics - /topic/at/737799/
And the score is completely irrelevant, I am a very bad player. Maybe you can tell me how to understand this template?
First of all, the statistics are taken in a spherical vacuum based solely on roads. One road does not always mean a worse deal. Then there are the same one-way portals, which so many people are so afraid of — if they are not on a penalty adjacent zone, they very rarely cause problems with normal use. Although I won't argue, one road leading to a portal exit on a swamp adjacent zone is usually very, very sad, although I have encountered such a thing even playing as the red color. For example, I am not sure that my win percentage as blue on 6lm is lower than as red. FTS, whom many now recognize as the top 1, has even said several times that his win statistics as blue on 6lm are higher than as red. This is, of course, all taking into account the reroll for color at the auction. But I have indeed seen many beginners become completely despondent from perfectly decent deals only because they encountered, oh horror, a one-way portal.
discord: LuckyF#3482
icq: 681350680
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