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I'll eventually get around to "The Fall of Atlantis" myself. For now, here is a detailed comment with tips from here:
Author: Jay7, 19-08-2005 12:12 Hi to everyone who has started the Walkthrough. It's been a long time since I've had as much fun as I did on this map. I've played it two or three times, a long while ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday. Don't start with Titans — crappy position; Black Dragons are also a waste of time. Play as Castle — to complete it better, faster, and without headaches or other #####, I suggest the following: buy a Necromancer mage and level them up alongside your main hero. When you reach the Dragon Utopias — and there are tons of them there — get the Lich King's Cloak regardless of the game progression; I had 5 of them by the end of the game. Give it to your pedophile — and that's it, the game is in the bag. I had over 30,000 Liches in every pack; 1,000 more or less doesn't matter. Just play through it, don't sweat it. Option two: if we want true satisfaction from the process, we complete it without Liches based on available forces. It will take about 2 times more time and effort. My advice for this: level up Diplomacy and don't overthink it. For me, the ideal hero looks like this: Air, Water, Fire, Earth, Intellect, Wisdom, and of course, Logistics, and on this map — Diplomacy, otherwise whatever comes up. Well then, good luck in battle.
This is the most interesting part: comparing different Walkthrough methods. And here is a comment from another player:
Author: Azur (Russia), 15-11-2009 20:10 +1 Good map, but there are balance issues toward the end; when 4k magic elementals join, it's not an option! I played as "Titans" and the problem really exists and it's not a simple one — quite soon the computer arrives with a massive army and kills everything. The solution is non-trivial: I had to send several of my heroes to him who, using the portal system, constantly took the computer's castles, dwellngs, and mines. Thus, the computer had to spend its time taking them back from me, but this wasn't easy because, having a town portal, he had a significant advantage in maneuverability, and I had to reload very often to choose a position so that the computer wouldn't have time to take the castle and kill one of my heroes. This didn't last long. Another plus of this strategy is that the computer is forced to kill its own growth and receives significantly less income since at any moment it is deprived of more than half of its castles, gold mines, and dwellings. The key to controlling its castles is the ability to constantly buy heroes; even if you have only 1 of its castles, they are all connected by portals, and even if it's taken on this turn, he won't have time to kill all the heroes and it all repeats — you grab another empty castle (or not empty) and breed heroes again if someone was killed. It's unpleasant, but it's a matter of time. When your group becomes capable of killing its main group, everything ends, and this is not a moment of equal strength; to calmly kill the computer, one-fifth of its group's strength or even less is enough. The key is the Berserk spell, necessary for killing vastly superior forces; you also need a Negator. Proper use of magic allows you to win against enemy heroes with armies far exceeding yours, and with insignificant losses. Also, an important point is obtaining the Air Magic book; this solves all other problems. Taking it is not simple, but having a Negator and magic, it's generally not a big problem. The tactic is simple — build up an army — sail for the Negator — don't let the computer start expanding by taking its castles — build up an army — kill the Conflux — sail for the Air tome, and at this point the game stops being interesting because you can move freely and recruit monster groups that have grown to epic sizes.
I was stumped by the term "negator". I still don't understand: what is it? :confused: Whoever has played or is going to play — please tell me, what did you do!
This is the most interesting part: comparing different walkthrough methods.
Some "methodology." The guy used the 2 biggest imbalanced things in the game: Cloak of the Undead King and diplomacy, and he's a big shot. Cloak of the Undead King is of course unrivaled.
*negator is a morale ruiner
Marmot
12 years ago
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Lider1, my comment about different approaches to gameplay referred to the first quote and followed it; then, when I added the second quote, it simply moved down and became unclear what it referred to. Now I have moved it back to its original place. In general, if the player can choose one of 4 factions: Castle, Tower, Dungeon, or Stronghold, then there is an opportunity to apply various creative methods. Having never played on this map, I can only assume that Castle or Dungeon have a better chance of success; Barbarians have to rely more on brute force (might), Tower - on the contrary, on magic, and for them everything depends very much on the availability of resources and the appearance of the right spells. Also, note that people start on grass, but Dungeon - for some reason - on a swamp, and Barbarians - on sand. The author neglected the penalties of non-native terrain - and in vain! I think he probably just drew 4 different types of soil in the 4 corners of the map first, and then assigned the factions to the players; that's not good! Regarding the negator, I also assumed that it was most likely the Spirit of Despair: it is very important for the Berserker so that the enemy stacks do not suddenly become brave and attack your units. However, this case shows how important it is to use generally accepted terminology or well-known jargon; at worst, if you want to use your own word, be kind enough to explain what it means!
Белендор
12 years ago
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Started with the Barbarians; the sand penalty is compensated by the Nomads. The AI surrendered the castle after about 2 months.
bolotnik
12 years ago
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I recently completed a quite interesting and engaging custom map — "A Beautiful World". About the map: The map is well-balanced, detailed, and thoughtful. It consists of several large islands and several smaller ones. There is a uniquely designed underground level. Gameplay on this map turns out to be quite prolonged, but the map doesn't present any particular difficulty. Walkthrough: You can choose anyone except Inferno (even Conflux). This time I decided to choose Rampart (green). Since it was my first time playing (I never look at the map in the editor beforehand), I chose a difficulty level of 160%. Starting hero — Mephala. So, about the walkthrough itself: There are enough resources on the map that building up the starting town doesn't take much time, so initially the main hero fought through the guards, while secondary heroes collected treats (later, a hero named Kyrr with Logistics appeared in the tavern, which sped up resource gathering). The neutrals in the area of the starting castle were cleared using groups of marksmen with almost no losses. The only thing is, I hesitated for a long time to break through the anti-magic garrisons, behind which were neutral towns (also Ramparts) and the exit to the shipyard. Consequently, in terms of pacing, I gave the AI a significant head start (almost a month) until I hired Gold Dragons. After breaking through the anti-magic GOs and reaching the shipyard, the most interesting and main part of the game truly began. By this point, the AI had developed quite well, settled in, and captured neutral castles on their islands. They were already fully traversing the waters and fighting each other. I only reached the water by the end of the 5th month. Here I made several mistakes, the price of which was another loss of momentum: Initially, I sailed straight up, landed on the upper island, and captured the Blue player's town (Tower), but there was no way to go further into their domains because the path was blocked by a Keymaster's tent. I had to return and take a very long detour (and without the Navigation skill). First, I landed on the Red player's island (Swamp), then captured towns one by one, moved to another island, hired heroes there and gathered troops; gradually, the Rampart army was supplemented by other races. I must say that my walkthrough dragged on significantly because I had only two decent heroes — the main one, Mephala, and a secondary one, Kyrr; there were no other serious heroes (this is a problem for me, I can't develop several heroes at once; I have 1-2 main ones, and all others just pick up whatever is lying around), whereas the AI had quite a few capable heroes with decent troops. Therefore, from the 8th month of the game to the 11th month, there was a chaotic shuffle: I would take the enemy's towns, they would take mine, and then we would just chase each other back and forth. I should mention that by then, only I [green], Orange [Castle], Pink [Dungeon], and Blue [Tower] remained alive. My two main heroes (Kyrr and Mephala) were facing the main AI forces, who had captured towns outside their spawn areas. All this action took 3 months. In the end, I managed to catch Orange first, and then Pink. I didn't realize immediately that to enter Blue's lands, one must go through the underground; then I tried to sail and land on Blue's other side, but there was a town there as well, and beyond it, a Keymaster's tent. I had some interesting battles in the dungeon against Pink; when I went to their underground, I had 2.5 times fewer troops than they did, and they had 3 heroes with superior forces. Because of this, I initially lost my hero — Mephala (I didn't have enough money to pay off the guards, so I had to engage in battle, and then I didn't have time to retreat, as I wanted to mow down more enemies). On the second attempt, with more or less decent troops, artifacts, and stats, I managed to break through with the second hero and eventually finish off Pink. While I was fighting Pink, Blue didn't sleep and was nibbling away at my towns here and there. In the end, I managed to pin them down and drive them back to their snow only by the 14th month (by this time, the armies were simply massive; mana depleted faster than troops). Consequently, I had to hire heroes up to the maximum, level them all up more or less, and prevent Blue from leaving their home island. The main battle was hard, as their main hero (Fafnir) had dug in at the starting castle, so I had to storm the castle. I attacked with hero Kyrr using purely Rampart troops; Fafnir also had only Tower troops. This is where the part comes in that I don't like much, but is essentially inevitable on large maps when a game drags on — the huge number of troops, several thousand per stack; for instance, the enemy had 6k Master Gremlins and nearly 1k Titans. I attacked with a similar numerical layout. But before the main attack, I attacked about 4 more times with secondary heroes and various troops. After a very long and tense battle, I managed to win, with only 2 Dendroid Warriors left at the end. This was already in the 19th month of the game. After that, there were no major difficulties; I took the remaining two towns, resulting in a victory on 19-2-5. I don't even want to mention the shameful amount of points (I never dug up the Grail). I think that on a second walkthrough, I can significantly improve the result. I believe skilled players will have only positive emotions from this map, and of course, the map itself will be completed many times faster. Since I created the problems on this map myself.
And yet, I would like to ask how to play with a larger number of heroes, so that there are 3, 4, or 5 heroes not differing much from each other in primary skills, which could be used equally well against AI heroes. Otherwise, I have 1-2 main ones and all the others are just runners. And on XL maps with a large number of towns, this becomes a problem.
Marmot
12 years ago
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I previously mentioned my playthrough of the map "A Beautiful World," and we discussed it afterward.
How do you play with a large number of heroes, so that you have 3, 4, or 5 heroes who are not too different from each other in terms of primary skills, and can be used equally well against AI heroes? Because I usually have 1-2 main heroes and the rest are just runners.
Well, it depends on the map, your play style, and the situation. For example, if a previously defeated enemy hero with good skills appears in the tavern, it's a sin not to hire him if you have the resources! ;) But if you can handle the main tasks with one "powerful" hero, that works too.
bolotnik
12 years ago
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Started playing the "Fatum" map. Decided to play as the Queen for the first time, using my favorite Swamp faction. The map is truly overflowing with various objects, resources, and neutrals. As Marmot correctly noted, it's a pure strategy experience, with complete freedom of action; the map is practically a masterpiece. However, I lost very quickly and strangely (it's a shame, of course, and unpleasant to admit, but I lost to the AI). The thing is, on the 2nd month of the game, a blue hero came to me with a couple of Azure Dragons and a good hundred of Gremlins, plus a decent amount of other creatures. The troops themselves weren't bad, but the two Azure Dragons on the enemy side did their dark work... Decided not to give up and try to play this map again. I chose the Castle as my starting faction and set the difficulty to Shogun, 130%. I decided to play more actively, without getting too distracted by various minor things and countless piles of resources. I quickly captured the neighboring neutral towns, and by the end of the first month, I went on the offensive. Of course, overall, the game was going quite well, and the computer-controlled heroes sometimes made me think, but I still managed to win with small losses. As a result, I relaxed a bit, got carried away with collecting everything shiny on the map, and eventually didn't notice that another 3 months had passed, and by the 6th month, after several battles with the AI, it became clear that I needed to start over. In general, as I now understand, the map is designed for a very active game; the pace of the game is very high, and you constantly need to move forward and crush the enemy, and moreover, it's desirable to do so in several directions at once. You can't afford to stay put for even 1-2 days. Since the map is full of all sorts of artifacts that the AI also gets, battles with enemy heroes are sometimes really exciting. I think that when I have time, I will try to complete this map. I looked at the map in the editor, and it turns out that on the surface, the Swamp and Human factions start, as it were, in the center, which is not very advantageous on such a map. I think that starting as one of the factions located in the corners would be more convenient, as enemies probably won't come for at least 2-3 months, which creates more favorable conditions for development, advancement, and building up strength. And P.S. The map is challenging due to its openness, richness, and pace. In general, I'll complete the map once and won't replay it, just like "Beautiful World" and "Battle of the Titans," because I don't like maps where there's a possibility of getting various dragons, snipers, and other such troops that are not part of the standard castle roster. Although, most often, it is precisely such maps that are well made. Therefore, I would like to know what interesting and good fan-made maps there are, preferably L and XL, on which there is no possibility of hiring creatures that do not belong to a specific race and town (Mummies, Trolls, Crystal Dragons, etc.). What fan-made maps can you recommend?
Marmot
12 years ago
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I've heard about the map ""Paragon"" here for the second time. On HP, it ranked among the best; the discussion there already has 162 comments, even though it was posted on 01.01.2013! I downloaded it once, then read about the twisted map-building technique the author used, was upset, :( deleted it, but then downloaded it again – let it be with a note about what technique was used. But, I'm afraid, there are other oddities there, but at first glance, the map looks very good, and it's worth trying to complete it. The author also wrote that there are alternative ways to complete it, so there shouldn't be any dead ends. I'll take his word for it! :)
An excerpt from a large review on HeroesPortal: Nominations for "Most Engaging Map," "Best Story Map" - "Paragon" by Sir Rincewind
Thank you to the author for reviving my long-lost faith in the immortality of the third Heroes game. As a mapmaker accustomed to using WoG with its scripts whenever I wanted to enhance the plot or gameplay with something unusual, I was simply amazed to discover how powerful all the same things can be when done with the purest "Breath of Death," seasoned with only a few externally modified objects... At first glance, a classic long, "linear" adventure with a hero starting with a single peasant in a war against the whole world. In reality, the adventure turns out to be not so linear, although undoubtedly progressive. Almost complete absence of various restrictions on the strategic part of the game, so characteristic of adventure maps. In the castles, almost all buildings are available (capitols are prohibited, in some places - high-level mage guilds, somewhere else something - but these are all "point attacks," not a general rule). Mines and external dwellings are plentiful. Taverns are in place... Practically perfect balance. Neutrals guarding passages and all sorts of bonuses gain strength gradually, as you move away from the starting area. Battles are moderately difficult, but not hardcore. In almost five months of playing, I have not encountered a single place where it would be necessary to simply accumulate troops to move on, which many similar maps also suffer from. Here, there is quite enough of what you can realistically collect "along the way," if you don't slow down too much. A strict ban on the aforementioned slowing down: despite the fact that the map does not have a special defeat condition, the author allocates a definite period of time for each of its stages, which does not allow for "tea ceremonies." We must complete the very first task assigned to us in no more than two and a half months, otherwise - 100% defeat (yes, that's how it is - without special defeat conditions, in pure SoD without any scripts!). Subsequent "deadlines" are even shorter, but they behave less harshly - simply at the right moment, the player is subjected to a sudden attack by several strong enemy heroes, with whom it is not so easy to cope without proper preparation. Despite the great importance of these moments for creating the appropriate tense-military atmosphere and timely development of the plot, it is here, in my opinion, that the only serious drawback lies: some of the established deadlines are simply too short. They do not in any way make the map impassable, but they can quite force you to replay fairly large sections of time. The fact is that after completing the first key task, the territories available to the player expand sharply and simply beg to be thoroughly explored. However, there is very little time for exploration: it is assumed that the player will immediately begin to actively prepare for the next threat, but, firstly, he is not yet aware of it, and, secondly, he has no idea where and in what sequence it is best to run to have time to get everything useful. In general, in its current version, the map requires extraordinary clairvoyance skills, thereby actively provoking the player to scout using the editor and cheats before completing the next section. However, the author has already promised to fix the situation in the coming days by creating an easier version with slightly shifted deadlines for enemy attacks. Wide possibilities and an abundance of tactical tasks. The map is extraordinarily (again, for its class) generous with powerful artifacts and spells. Sometimes - even too generous (for example, most of the heroes released from prisons immediately have boots and gloves of speed, and the book of earth, when finally obtained, is given out in four copies at once). In the early days after receiving this gentleman's set, it seems that here it is - happiness for a true tank, that we are now invincible and the devil himself is not our brother. Several of the nearest battles with enemy heroes only strengthen this deceptive impression. But you don't have to be bored for long: even with such possibilities, we will still encounter difficult or even unsolvable combat tasks... Thought out in every detail, beautifully described with a multitude of very appropriate texts, a constantly developing plot as the gameplay progresses. Here, I simply have to repeat myself: I never thought that a plot of this level was possible in pure SoD. And the point here is not that it is a revelation in itself or something incredibly original. No, here we encounter a rather standard warlike and pompous, although very well-written "high fantasy," full of quite stereotypical elves, gnomes, dragons, emperors, and wizards. The point is how all this is presented. How harmoniously and naturally the author's ideas are woven from the most standard heroic tasks, which for the most part are not perceived as "another seer's hut." If I had a hat on me now, I would definitely take it off and applaud standing... In the end, this is also the first known to me truly story map that has appeared on our Portal since the opening of the Cartographers League two years ago... I recommend that everyone who has time and faith in their abilities play Paragon.
I just finished playing this map ("Paragon") today.
Actually, the review I wrote above accurately describes it. It's a long journey from an ordinary mortal with just one miserable peasant to becoming the "Perfect One," the savior of the world. The perfectly balanced armies, both yours and the enemy's, combined with a well-thought-out and genuinely interesting and captivating plot, and interesting and dramatic twists in the gameplay (especially towards the end), make this map, if not the best, then definitely one of the best, at least in my opinion.
This map is not for beginners; it requires knowledge of various tricks and subtleties of the game, because the opponents who periodically attack you will be superior in both troops and skills.
I've seen players mention that it's necessary to play at a fast pace, but honestly, I wouldn't agree that this is a mandatory condition (well, except for the starting section in the first 3 months). I played at a moderate pace (and quite successfully). Perhaps I just spent a little more nerves because of it.
Overall, I recommend everyone to play this masterpiece.
I've heard about the map ""Paragon"" for the second time now. On HP, it ranked among the best; the discussion there already has 162 comments, even though it was posted on January 1, 2013! I downloaded it once, then read about the twisted mapmaking technique the author used, got upset, :( deleted it, but then downloaded it again – let it be with a note about what technique was used. But I'm afraid there might be other oddities as well, however, the map looks very good, and it's worth trying to complete it. The author also wrote that there are alternative ways to complete it, so there shouldn't be any dead ends. I'll take his word for it! :)
What exactly twisted technique are you referring to?
Marmot
12 years ago
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Rince, I deliberately didn't specify which particular trick to use, so that creators of new custom maps wouldn't want to use it in their maps after learning about this possibility: I am strongly against such perversions when there is no unconditional need for it to implement the author's idea. For players who want to know what I'm talking about, I'll write it below in white: highlight the text with the mouse to read it.
A fragment of a discussion about a map on HeroesPortal:
Question: why can other players, for example, with purple and turquoise colors, calmly pass THROUGH the red guards (pillars) without removing them, even though they don't have flight or angel wings?
Author's answer: The enemies don't pass "through" - they pass next to them, through border gates of a different color, disguised as trees.
Rince
12 years ago
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Given the circumstances, I can assure you that in this case, there was indeed an absolute necessity.
Marmot
12 years ago
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"I don't believe it!" (S)
Rince, so you are the author of this map – Rincewind? If that’s the case, I expect a reasonable explanation! I have long wanted to talk to one of these authors and find out what goes on in their heads. In this case: if gates are needed, then we put gates. Camouflage only serves to confuse the player or to show how “cool” an author is because they can pull off such tricks. But the fact is that the patch for the editor that allows this was released about 10 years ago, and the authors had already “played around” with it back then. However, apparently, everyone who learns about this for the first time will happily start using object replacement. I used to download one Chinese map where almost all objects turned out to be not what they seemed. I deleted it immediately and forgot the name! However, the reason in this case may be as follows: map creators from HeroesPortal consider "ordinary" maps and ordinary methods of creating them boring and go "all-in." Here is a series of maps by one of those authors. I think it is worth reminding that not all players like such techniques. Yes, here, here, I just gave such an example. Do you like it? But at the same time, I think the "Paragon" map is excellent! I especially liked the artwork; there is a large, well-developed story presented in small portions so as not to tire the player; it is clear that the map is thought out and made very carefully. It will definitely remain in my collection. Later, I will try to complete it, but for now, I have only played through the first week, stopping after capturing Lord Mograine's native castle – Stonehelm. It is already clear that the map is not for beginners: right from the start, you need to fight very carefully, thinking through the tactics of each battle. But there is something else that I completely disagree with: author’s tips in event texts are very good, but, in my opinion, they should be given at the beginning, and not on day 500! Especially this (about artifacts):
PLOT-RELATED ones, i.e., those without which completing the map will become absolutely impossible: * Books of Water, Fire, and Earth magic. There are 4 books of Earth; they are issued almost simultaneously, and losing even one will be fatal.
And so on. What is the point of the player finding out what skills are needed to complete the game at the very end?! True, the most necessary ones are available from the start or are given in huts along the way. And the question about camouflaged border gates will inevitably arise for every player when he encounters an inexplicable appearance of enemies: "WTF? What the hell?!" However, thank you very much for answering players' questions in the discussion of the map on HeroesPortal! This helps overcome the difficulties that have arisen. By the way, regarding bugs in the game itself (if you don't already know): most of them have already been fixed in the HD mod.
Rince
12 years ago
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Yes, that's me.
Regarding the modified objects in general, and the gates in particular: I gave the AI a certain degree of freedom, but it was also necessary to limit the areas of influence of each enemy. Naturally, this can only be done with gates, but they take up a lot of space and don't always fit into the landscape, which would affect the rendering, which you praised. Furthermore, having many gates and towers on the map, with access to which the player would gain somewhere halfway across the map, would "confuse" the player quite a bit. Another example: some enemies have hidden caches with artifacts or gold on their territory. If I hid them behind ordinary gates, what kind of hidden caches would they be? In the end, I believe that the player simply shouldn't have to think about where the gates are, because the situation where he finds himself in front of hidden gates for which he doesn't have a key on the map is impossible. However, someone who dissects my map "piece by piece" in the editor will probably have a hard time.
Regarding other objects: they have been modified in accordance with the plot. For example, one character tells you that he would like to meet you in a certain place. It would be logical to see that character in that place, and not a hastily built seer's hut, wouldn't it?
And then, what do you consider to be an "aberration" and what isn't? A long time ago, all sorts of originalities in the standard campaigns, such as Yоg's ban on magic and double defeat conditions, used to blow my mind. Many people are annoyed by overly hidden passages and objects on maps like Wayfarer and Empire Of the World 2. A very strong effect is created by encountering a hero of level 6424, mowing down legions of level 7 units with magic, which the same Chinese players like to place. Finally, there are many unconventional solutions on my map, which raised far more questions than the modified objects. And I haven't even written anything about WoG, where anything is possible.
In my opinion, all of this is acceptable; it's just a matter of the author's taste and the player's preferences.
Regarding the hint messages: they can only be read from the editor, and I informed the players about their presence in my introductory speech at the beginning of the game. Ideally, they should have been in a separate file.
Marmot
12 years ago
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Rince, thank you for your response! I was afraid you would be offended and not want to reply. And the forum was unavailable for a long time. In general, to summarize, we can say: there's no accounting for taste. There are two types of players: some like to search for hidden objects, passages, etc., and others don't. I belong to the latter. I don't know which group is larger. Perhaps we could even conduct a poll by creating a separate topic. The thing is, I've already played through 3 maps where there are hidden paths and objects, sometimes quite intricate, and I'm already fed up with them for life. I won't name them now, because here's a homework assignment for you: this is a screenshot of a fragment of one of these maps. Draw the path to the underground gates in Paint (it starts on the right, along the road)! And then I'll give the correct answer. (Those who know - keep it to themselves! ;)) Put yourself in the players' shoes - then you will understand.