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Posts from your questions regarding the game rules (improving the interpretation). Auto-translated

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In reply to Redwhait
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#182
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Redwhait HP
Conflux is strong if you were able to build birds on the first week.
There are simply no other strats for it right now; upgrading fairies and psychics won't make it wildly stronger, only diversify the strategies of play.
Upgrading fairies will greatly strengthen Conflux on poor templates, where, by the way, it is already strong. But upgrading psychics won't add any imbalanced power.
In reply to KobRa_RR
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#183
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The type of punishment to be applied depends on the decision of the tournament judge. However, the list of permissible punishments must be added to the rules. Punishments for violating the rules: 1. Technical defeat. 2. Skipping a turn. (That is, the player skips their next turn) 3. Removing the timer. (When passing the turn, before completing game actions, the player burns the timer. It is possible to create a gradation depending on the severity of the violation - 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes) And I also wanted to raise another issue. Roger Yu argued about this last time, as far as I remember. Perhaps we should specify the save/load order in the rules to avoid problems with continuing the game. In practice, it is almost always possible to come to an agreement, but controversial moments arise.

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In reply to skd
#184
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skd
The type of punishment to apply depends on the decision of the tournament judge. But the list of permissible punishments must be added to the rules.
Penalties for violating the rules:
1. Technical defeat.
2. Skipping a turn. (That is, the player skips their next turn)
3. Timer deduction. (When passing the turn, before performing game actions, the player loses time. It is possible to make a gradation depending on the severity of the violation - 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, 20 minutes)

And I also wanted to raise another issue. Roger Yua argued about this last time, as far as I remember. Maybe we should specify the save/load procedure in the rules. So that there are no problems with continuing the game. In practice, you can almost always agree, but controversial moments arise.
Timer deduction is nonsense and will have a completely different impact on the game for different players and in different situations (some have accumulated an hour+ and these -5, -20 minutes don't matter at all, while someone has 0 time and subtracting 5 minutes from +8 minutes for the next turn will be extremely critical, and besides, it is only possible to check this timer deduction among streamers). Skipping a turn is even more nonsense, especially during a close game.
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#185
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How did they decide to deal with Conflux's imbalance in HotA? I'm thinking, what if we ask Wizard to reduce the weekly growth of birds to 2 and allow the upgrade in the new mod, or will they still be super strong due to speed? What are your opinions?
I agree about the timer, it's a very unbalanced penalty. For me, for example, I usually always have plenty of time left on my turn, but when I watch Palach, he's always burning time somewhere.)
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In reply to LuckyF
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#186
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LuckyF
Removing timer time is nonsense, and for different players in different situations, it will have a completely different impact on the match (someone has accumulated an hour+ and those -5, -20 minutes mean nothing to them, while someone has 0 time and deducting 5 minutes from the +8 minutes for the next turn would be critically harsh; besides, this timer burn can only be checked among streamers). Skipping a turn is even more nonsense, especially during contact play.
Using the example of that match with the incorrect flight to ГО. Let's say a player has 25 minutes of timer left - the judge identifies the violation - orders a turn change and deducts 10 minutes from the timer. On Jebus Cross, 10 minutes is quite noticeable. And this punishment leaves a chance for victory, unlike a technical loss.
In any case, the judge decides, and deducting 20 minutes of timer for a rule violation when the timer is over 1 hour is not logical. Other types of punishment are seen merely as alternatives. Maybe you have ideas for punishments besides a technical loss?

Also, violations are of 2 types -
1) A violation directly in the game. And the punishment should have consequences within that game.
2) A regulation violation - missing the deadline for a game, not playing the required number of games by a certain date. Different punishments can be applied here as well.
For example:
1) Disqualification.
2) In the next match, the opponent of the violating player chooses the color and template (Using the current HotA Tournament as an example).
3) Deducting gold at the start (when playing with the HeroesWorld rules patch).
4) In the group stage, fewer points can be given if players do not meet the deadline (e.g., 3 for a win, 1 for a draw; if they don't play on time - 2 for a win, 0.5 for a draw. But for the Buchholz calculation of other players, the points are accepted in full)

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
In reply to skd
#187
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skd
Using the example of that game with the incorrect flight to the ГО. Let's say a player has 25 minutes left on the timer — the judge identified a violation — ordered a turn transition and deducted 10 minutes from the timer. On Jebus Cross, 10 minutes is quite noticeable. And this punishment leaves a chance to win, unlike a technical loss.
In any case, the judge decides, and deducting 20 minutes from the timer for a rules violation when the timer is over 1 hour is not logical. Other types of punishment are seen only as alternatives. Maybe you have ideas for punishments besides technical loss?

Also, violations are of 2 types -
1) a violation directly in the game. And the punishment should have consequences within the scope of that game.
2) a regulation violation — missing deadlines for the game, not playing the required number of games by a certain date. Different punishments can also be applied here.
For example:
1) Deduction.
2) In the next game, the opponent of the violating player chooses the color and template (Using the example of the current HotA tournament).
3) Deduction of money from the start (when playing with the ХВ рулез patch).
4) In the group stage, fewer points can be given if players did not finish on time (For example, 3 for a win, 1 for a draw, if they didn't play on time — 2 for a win, 0.5 for a draw. But for the Berger calculation of other players, the points are taken in full).

Regarding the case between Dark and Gom, the judge there does not consider that Dark violated the rules. More precisely, there is a literalist inaccuracy in the rules, which allows this to be interpreted as a violation, but with a small change (adding 1 more guard next to the dwellings) everything is already completely within the rules. And it was already mentioned here that in such controversial situations, the interpretation will be in favor of the player.
I have no ideas for punishments as an alternative to technical loss. I only expressed my opinion about the ones you proposed. In my view, they are not very suitable...
Well, regarding your options for deadline violations. I also think they are quite strange. A simple technical loss/technical win is quite sufficient. And if a player has already received it, on what basis should his opponent in the next round have an additional advantage?
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In reply to Dirty_Player
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#188
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Dirty_Player
Upgrading faeries will greatly strengthen Conflux on poor templates, where it is, by the way, already strong. But upgrading psychics won't add any imbalanced power.

Yes, upgrading faeries is not an option at all. As for psychics, if they do get magic resistance, they lose the ability to have their own magic cast on them.
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In reply to Gomunguls
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#189
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Gomunguls
Yes, upgrading fairies is not a good idea. But with psionic creatures, even if they gain magic resistance, they lose the ability to use their own magic.
I don't mind removing the ban on upgrading psionic creatures, but the cost of such a unit is 800.
The unupgraded version costs 750, deals 10-20 damage, and has a speed of 7.
The upgraded version costs 800, deals 15-25 damage, has a speed of 9, and is magic immune.
If the unit's cost is increased to 1200, upgrading can be allowed.

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In reply to Dirty_Player
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#190
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Dirty_Player
Upgrading Faeries will greatly strengthen Conflux on poor templates, where it, by the way, is already strong. But upgrading Psychos won't add imbalancedness.
Don't forget, if you upgrade Faeries, then almost never will the Sprites be built. And upgrading Faeries is very costly in terms of timer, and if you spend it in the first few days, you won't have enough for the second week. And what will you do without Sprites and timer for Conflux in the second [week]?)
In reply to Redwhait
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#191
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Redwhait HP
Don't forget, if you upgrade fairies, the birds will almost never spawn. And upgrading fairies is very costly in terms of timer, and if you waste it in the first few days, you won't have enough on the second week. And what will you do without birds and timer for conflux on week 2?)
What do you mean almost never spawn? With air elementals built, the fairy upgrade will be done every time, as it costs next to nothing by itself. And upgraded fairies are definitely less costly on the timer than non-upgraded ones. Unless, of course, you're using them to chase down hordes of dendroids.
I played Flax twice in outlaw, and upgraded fairies both times. Once I had air elementals, the other time I played 8xm8a, where birds aren't even a consideration. Both times I just sent heroes in different directions — one hero with upgraded fairies one way, another hero with air elementals and a few non-upgraded fairies the other. So from day 112-113 you can fully, independently clear two directions. Other towns can only afford that with a fast capture of cons.
Anyway, you could run a little tournament just for Flax (we had one like that for Tower once), allow all upgrades there, and see what comes of it. Just preferably use the widest possible pool of templates.
skd
I'm not against unbanning the upgrade for psychics, but the cost of such a unit is 800.
The non-upgraded one costs 750, damage 10-20, speed - 7.
The upgraded one costs 800, damage 15-25, speed - 9, magic immune.
If you raise the unit cost to 1200, you can allow the upgrade.
You always strive to make changes not to the game rules, but to the game itself. Maybe it's better to discount?
KobRa_RR
For intentional violation of rules, there should always be a technical loss! And the degree of guilt is determined by the judge.
How will we distinguish intentional from unintentional? Back in the day, there was a lot of this — late game, sod timer, accidentally casting a third Dimension Door (or a second on Jebus Cross), some unintentional hit-and-run — now almost all of this is blocked by the patch. Except perhaps for redraw and air control on panic and balance. No one does a redraw on purpose; everyone knows you can't do it. Does that mean we shouldn't punish it?
Dirty_Player
Actually, this is a very interesting question. I raised it some time ago, we discussed it, but never came to any conclusion.
If we differentiate violations into criminal and less serious (some punishable by technical defeat, others not), there will often be a temptation to commit a "minor" violation, thinking, "I'll get a warning, fine, but I'll win the game." To prevent this, a player must understand that breaking the rules results in losing the game.
It would be desirable to reach some conclusion on this matter. Here's an example from practice about a year ago, the match Chemist HP vs YaR in OFB-8, where a redraw was made, and it was established that the losses differed by a few imps, but the violator faced no punishment whatsoever. Even though the rules clearly cover this situation.
Rules
b) on blue's heroes or guarded mines, if the presence of growth can affect the outcome of the battle or the losses in battle for any of the players.
No comments followed back then, just as no clarifications were added to the rules about how many imps the difference must be for a redraw to count as a redraw. And perhaps a technical loss is indeed too harsh a punishment for a violation that doesn't affect the game's outcome, but there are plenty of situations where it's impossible to assess the impact on the outcome. But how, then, should such violations be punished? The options with a timer and skipping a turn are, of course, very interesting, but what to do if the violation is discovered after the saves are opened?
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In reply to Sanin
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#192
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Sanin
What do you mean they will almost never stand? If air elementals are built, the fairy upgrade will be done every time, especially since it costs next to nothing on its own. And upgraded fairies are certainly less time-consuming than unupgraded ones. Unless, of course, you’re using them to chase down hordes of dendroids.
I played Conflux twice in Outlaw, and both times I upgraded the fairies. One time air elementals were built, the other time it was 8xm8a, where birds aren’t really a consideration. Both times I simply sent heroes in different directions — one hero with upgraded fairies, another hero with air elementals and a few unupgraded fairies. So from week 1, day 1-2 or week 1, day 1-3, you can fully and independently clear two directions from each other. Other towns can only afford that with a fast cons.
But overall, you could run a mini tournament purely for Conflux (we had one like that for Tower once), allow all upgrades there, and see what comes of it. Though it would be best to use the widest possible template pool.

Once you have a collection of at least 20 games with upgraded fairies, I’ll carefully consider your position.
In Physical Medium, I didn’t find the chance to build air elementals from the start, but it seems to be less than 25%, and draw your own conclusions from that.
8xm8a is also a good example — Conflux doesn’t work there at all; even with upgraded fairies, it will lose to many towns in most cases.
In reply to Redwhait
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#193
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Redwhait HP
When you have a selection of at least 20 games with gr fakes, I will carefully consider your position.
In the physical mig I didn't find the chance of building air elementals from the start, but it seems to be less than 25%, and from that draw your own conclusions.
Well then, offer us your selection. So far, your arguments for buffing Conflux look like Ze's complaints about the weakened Shakti in HotA, just a matter of taste.

As for less than 25%, that information is incorrect; I just consulted with Sav, he says the chance of building the second level is 30% and it does not depend on the town.
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In reply to Sanin
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#194
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Sanin
So go ahead and propose your own selection. So far, your arguments for buffing Conflux come across like Ze's complaints about the nerfed Shakti in HotA — just a matter of personal taste.

As for the less than 25%, that information is incorrect; I just consulted Sav, and he says the chance to build the second level is 30% and it does not depend on the town.
Armchair analyst detected.
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In reply to Sanin
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#195
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Sanin

Regarding the less than 25% chance, the information is incorrect. I just consulted with Sav, and he says that the chance of upgrading to the second level is 30%, and it doesn't depend on the town.
It seems that an average player knows more than a member of the AK:smile09:

лето 2012.
In reply to Dark
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#196
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Dark
It seems that an average player knows more than a member of the Tournament Committee:smile09:
We've discussed everything here.
Is that it? Are there no more questions about the rules? Is it time to summarize?