Let's vote on the "Time Limit" option for different map templates. — Tournament Committee

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Registered: 11/1/2011 4:49 AM UTC

Posts: 1,085

4/11/2012 2:33 AM UTC #16

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We can look at the problem of the time limit from a different angle:

Let me give you an example: you can't infinitely increase the price of, say, pasta – no matter how high the quality, if you set the price at, for example, 1000 rubles per kilogram, people will switch to similar products (rice, cereals, etc.).
Similarly, no game, no matter how super-duper brainy, should last longer than a certain amount of time (5-7 hours maximum, 5 is personally preferable to me) – otherwise, the opportunity for new players to join decreases ("Oh, the game is great, I remember... but spending a day or two on a single game... maybe later..."). The likelihood of existing players leaving increases ("No, no, I can still find half a day, but a whole day! When am I supposed to live?"). In short, they might not come (or they might leave). The argument "you want roses, bring manure" is relevant here.

Therefore, limiting the total game time is a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for preserving the potential for popularizing the game. If this "murky flow" of unintentional encouragement of slow thinking and temporary "indulgence" is not curtailed, there is a risk that the game will never become truly popular. This is a problem.

How can this be avoided? One option is to set a strict upper limit on the total game time (for example, N=6 hours).
Based on this postulate, we can build/evaluate game formats, tournaments, and the selection/creation of templates. (The entire set of measures still needs to be thought out...)
After all, turn-based games involve calculating moves ahead – why not calculate the future development of the game based on a particular trend in the time limit?

In reply to PReDS

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Registered: 4/6/2008 3:16 PM UTC

Posts: 474

4/11/2012 3:40 AM UTC #17

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PReDS

I can't understand one thing: why Anarchy is put in the same category as Sylvan – one of the most time-consuming templates, including because: "There is no spoon" – meaning no template.

It's hard to argue with the current CIS champion, but anarchy somehow makes me think of an extremely short turn time. There are hardly any rules there.
And we even had to play Anarchy in a tournament once. You agreed to 600+300, adding: "We're playing Anarchy, after all" :)

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In reply to PReDS

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Registered: 6/13/2009 6:19 AM UTC

Posts: 152

4/11/2012 4:22 AM UTC #18

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PReDS

PS I can't understand one thing: why Anarchy is put in the same category as small maps - one of the most time-consuming templates, including because: "There is no spoon" - meaning no template.

I agree.
The template is characterized by a large number of cities; sometimes the start is with three cities, and the game usually takes place on several fronts...
It would be logical to classify Anarchy as a group of XL templates with 8 minutes.
Ideally, of course, it would be to increase it by +10 seconds per turn, but is this technically feasible?

In reply to dom2

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Registered: 4/10/2009 12:18 AM UTC

Posts: 173

4/11/2012 6:20 AM UTC #19

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dom2

How can this be avoided? One option is to set a strict time limit for the entire game (for example, N=6 hours).
Based on this postulate, we can build/evaluate game formats, tournaments, and methods for selecting/creating templates. (The entire set of measures still needs to be developed...)

I completely agree.
I really enjoy playing, but I physically can't play for more than 5-6 hours.
I understand that you have years of training, and your body is already accustomed to long games. And you even do other things while playing.
At first, I couldn't play for more than two hours, but now I can easily handle 4 hours. I have no doubt that in a couple of years, I will be able to play for 10-12 hours without a break. But do I need to?
The time factor is the most important thing that deters me from participating in tournaments.
I want to play, but I can't play for long, and I don't want to let my opponent down.
And it turns out that, as Pete wrote, you play as if you're fulfilling an obligation. "I wish it would end sooner," you think.
I realize that I might get a simple answer - just don't play. :)
But I want to play. And I want to play with real people, without spending a lot of time on it.

Therefore, I agree that we need templates, tournament formats, and some organizational and technical measures that allow us to spend no more than 6 hours on a single match. :)

P.S. I hope you appreciate my honesty and don't throw rotten tomatoes at me. :)
P.P.S. I didn't vote so as not to distort the real picture. :)

In reply to Gaudin

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Registered: 4/6/2008 3:16 PM UTC

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4/11/2012 8:02 AM UTC #20

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Gaudin

I completely agree.
I really enjoy playing, but I physically can't play for more than 5-6 hours.

Turn-based mode solves this problem. You can set 3 hours for each player per game, with time limits for battles. This is called 10800+0. If the game isn't finished, whoever spends their 3 hours first loses.
It's clear and straightforward, just like in chess.
I used to play with a similar template, with a limit of 7200+0.

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In reply to Alessandro

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Registered: 1/6/2010 4:20 PM UTC

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4/11/2012 10:05 AM UTC #21

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Alessandro

Turn-based mode solves this problem. You can set 3 hours per game with time control in battles. This is called 10800+0. If the game hasn't finished, whoever spends their 3 hours first loses.
It's clear, just like in chess.
I used to play with a similar template, Panic mode with a limit of 7200+0.

It's as if no one knows where speed is needed :confused:

Added 1 minute ago
Gaudin, sorry, but I think you won't be playing for that long.

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Registered: 3/9/2008 1:45 PM UTC

Posts: 3,038

4/12/2012 10:28 AM UTC #22

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PReDS

One thing I can't understand: why is Anarchy placed on the same level as SMKs – one of the most time-consuming templates, including because: "There is no spoon" – meaning the template.

It seems to me, the better you know a template and the better you can play on it, the more time-consuming it becomes))) And on SMK, and on Balance with Panic, you can drag things out so much that your opponent falls asleep...
"The spoon" is the experience of playing on Anarchy. The more practice you have, the easier it is to navigate.
In the same row – firstly, based on size and the absence of computers.
Secondly, here's what we have in the template description:

Wicc

The Anarchy v1.01 template is a set of 12 templates, some of them are well-known, some are variations of well-known ones (to make them less recognizable). At the start and during the game, it is not visible which exact template was generated. Template schemes and descriptions are not published.

I'll tell you a big secret, that most of the templates from the set are no more complex than SMK, Balance, Panic, or the templates of the Speed and Onslaught tournament.
And thirdly,

Wicc

Recommended rule adjustments for playing on this template:
....
- All rules are canceled except for fair play.
EVERYTHING ELSE IS ALLOWED! That is, there are no restrictions on diplomacy, shifted guardians, specialty spells, using scrolls, red-rush, etc. There are also no restrictions on Necropolis and Conflux....

The absence of restrictions in some aspects (for example, being able to go through shifted guardians) greatly simplifies the game, and therefore saves time.
But, of course, everything is debatable; we can vote again later just on Anarchy.

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Registered: 6/13/2009 6:19 AM UTC

Posts: 152

4/12/2012 11:13 AM UTC #23

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Maretti

I'm often annoyed by opponents taking very long turns. Some people seem to take 10-15 minute turns from day one, no matter what build they play. The average turn time seems to be getting longer and longer, which is a problem, and I would like to see something done about it.

On the other hand, sometimes I need a very long time myself. And it's very unsatisfactory to play pretty fast but simply run out of time because it's an extraordinarily complex turn, and because of that, make heavy mistakes or even lose the game. In some cases, playing well simply takes a lot of time. Besides, knowing from the second the turn starts that you will have time problems is very stressful and not fun at all.

So maybe a solution could be to keep the short time limits but give each player 2 or 3 turns per game where they have the right to load their own autosave in case time runs out.

A practical suggestion from the "Fan Favorites" winner: don't increase the time limit to "stay sharp," but allow players to load their autosave and finish the turn if needed.

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Registered: 1/31/2011 9:31 AM UTC

Posts: 586

4/14/2012 5:23 AM UTC #24

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By the way, I've had this idea for a while: why not implement a rule where each player gets one auto-win during the game? It's really frustrating when a small detail decides the outcome of a battle, like if you don't manage to reach a critical point in time. But with this rule, you'd have a guaranteed auto-win for such a situation. Moreover, since you only have one auto-win, it wouldn't make sense to waste it unnecessarily, like "I don't know if I should block or not... Oh well, I have an auto-win anyway, so I'll attack." It's better to save it for a truly critical moment. You could even use it, for example, before the first encounter.

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Registered: 4/29/2007 10:30 AM UTC

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4/14/2012 6:00 AM UTC #25

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Ihtiandr

something like, "I don't know if I'll break through the block or not... Oh, never mind, I have auto-attack anyway, I'll attack."

Yeah. You can also come up with situations like: "what if it's not at full speed," "is there anything in the dark corner of the map," or "if it catches up while accelerating, we'll be in trouble" :D
I think Maretti was talking about his own autosave, just in case he runs out of time, which he can load and continue his turn.

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Registered: 1/31/2011 9:31 AM UTC

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4/14/2012 6:36 AM UTC #26

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You can also come up with situations: "what if it's not the best option?", "is there anything in the dark corner of the map?"

That's exactly what I meant – it's a waste to use your only auto-cast on such minor things, as it's better to save it for a truly hopeless situation. If the opponent uses such an auto-cast, it's a disadvantage for THEM, as they are left without it, while you still have yours.

"if it catches up during acceleration, we'll take it down"

To avoid such situations, you can make a rule that you can only use the auto-cast if there was no contact with the opponent during that turn.

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Registered: 8/31/2010 9:39 AM UTC

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4/14/2012 9:01 AM UTC #27

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That is exactly what I meant—it's foolish to waste the only autosave on such trifles, as it's better to save it for a truly hopeless situation

Dirty didn't write stupid things. They can decide the match; I've read in reports so many times that someone unexpectedly found a Dragon Utopia in the very corner, and then everything magically changes.

Allowing Autosaves tempts players to "cheat" (viewing the map or buildings) and only increases the freedom for cheaters (even honest players will start thinking there's nothing wrong with viewing something if autosave is allowed); autosave doesn't affect anything except increasing the time per turn.

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

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Registered: 1/31/2011 9:31 AM UTC

Posts: 586

4/14/2012 9:12 AM UTC #28

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They can decide the outcome of a battle; I've read it many times in reports – unexpectedly finding a Utopia in the very corner, and then everything changes magically.

They might decide, or they might not. It's unlikely you'll find a Utopia in the corner. Would you start running off into the unknown, hoping for the best, if there's no guarantee of finding what you're looking for? Most likely, you'll find nothing there and waste your auto-move.

The Auto-move feature tempts players to "cheat."

That's a completely different question; many things can tempt players to cheat. Anyone can cheat if they want to.

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Registered: 8/31/2010 9:39 AM UTC

Posts: 1,932

4/14/2012 9:36 AM UTC #29

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It is most likely that you will find nothing there and waste your auto.

There is no need to play the expert of probabilities; if there is a probability, then it exists. If you need the Dragon Utopia, that's what you look for, and to find it—you need to open the dark side of the treasury. And if the opponent is pressing me, then I'll have to climb and search in the most unlikely corners or run as fast as my legs can carry me. So, if the opponent, for example, is hot on my heels, and I have two options—an exit somewhere to the surface with a metro, for instance (I personally had such cases more than once on HL shablas when Dragon Utopias were in small unopened areas), but leaving a significant closed piece of treasury, then naturally using an auto to check that piece is an extremely necessary move; otherwise, it might go to the opponent, and then it will be even worse.

Auto permission—increases the chance for cheating; no permission—decreases it.

That is a completely different question; many things can tempt one to cheat. Anyone can cheat if they want to.

This is a parallel question, as it stems from the proposal to introduce autos.

P.S.It is not worth introducing a rule that, on one hand, provides some pluses, but on the other, shows minuses. Replacing "shilo" with "mylo", as is known, does not lead to prosperity.

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...