Posts from Orcs vs. Humans

Even with Keen Mind, a hero won't be able to cast spells before the Cyclops' first turn. The hero's initiative is 10 and doesn't change. Keen Mind will move the hero 25% along the turn order scale. The initiative of Daughters of Earth and War Chiefs upon entering battle at level 1 of Fury is 16 and 15, respectively, without artifacts. Artifacts can further increase it. The screenshots of the start of the battle (which I posted earlier) show the order in which the Orc units and the enemy hero with Keen Mind take their turns. Out of 10 attempts, the hero with Keen Mind only overtook 1 War Chief on the turn order scale 2 times. Remember, this is without initiative artifacts. In addition to rings that provide +10% and +20% to initiative, War Chiefs can also be sped up with dragon artifacts, both as melee units (+10%) and as "small" units (+5%). Shamans can be sped up as melee units (+10%), as casters (+10%), and as "small" units (+5%). This scheme does not include flying units (whose initiative can be reduced with Storm Wind) or ranged units (whose initiative can be reduced with Misty Veil). That is, to reduce our initiative, the enemy will have to find the Relic Staff of the Underworld.
After entering the battle, the Daughters cast Haste on the War Chiefs, and their initiative becomes even higher.
Each turn of the War Chiefs moves the Cyclops along the turn order scale. 3 stacks of War Chiefs with 50-60 units in each stack guarantee 2 and possibly 3 turns for the Cyclops before the hero with Keen Mind.
It looks something like this:
A stack of War Chiefs moves the Cyclops 60% along the turn order scale (60 is the maximum possible shift), meaning the Cyclops go immediately. If the Cyclops' morale doesn't trigger, they move to position 0 on the scale and need 2 "pushes" from the War Chiefs to move to position 1 and attack. If morale does trigger, they go to position 0.5 and after one "push" they attack again. If morale triggers again, the third attack of the Cyclops will again be possible after one "push". Thus, 3 attacks by the Cyclops are possible before the hero with Keen Mind.
And let's not forget about War Cry. At level 30, it will move units 70% along the ATB scale, and our hero may go earlier with the same Keen Mind and/or Empathy/Knight set, which will be effective with the high initiative of our units (units go more often => morale triggers more often => the hero moves along the scale more effectively => more often moves the Cyclops).

2Mdance
A seasoned "writer" like this should have been more honest with his "readers" long ago. :D

I fully agree that in the build variant described slightly above in this thread, Expert Tactics won't help the Cyclopes go earlier. If you consider the +5 army morale of the Orc and the Expert Tactics of their hero, the mathematical expectation of Cyclopes ATTACKS on the enemy army will be almost 2 (slightly less) even without initiative artifacts, meaning roughly 3 of their turns before a possible Subjugation.

Still, they won't reach the target in one turn, unless the opponent is an idiot.

They will deal serious damage, and Luck might kick in. But will that be enough for a final victory if they are subjugated immediately after? In most cases (averaged across all races), I believe not.

The presence of initiative artifacts won't strongly change this initial stage of the battle. The main question is how the Orc's resistance fares, and how the opponent's Sar-Iss staff fares. Without decent resistance, it's not worth attempting such a tactic at all; the Orc is not weak at all in the late game to take such a risk.

Now for the sad part of this tactic.
The Storm Wind variant doesn't leave room for Education (unless at level 30 and without Luck :p), which not only negatively affects the hero's stats but also forces them to find 2(!) native secondary dwellings to implement the onslaught. Without starting at Rage level 1, the tactic is simply crushed by the opponent's Expert Tactics.

If this isn't a specially designed map with 2 secondaries right next to you, finding them on a random map is unlikely.

Another serious problem is the opponent having a combination of a high-initiative unit + Empathy and/or the Lion set. Because then, a hero with Expert Tactics only needs one early morale check (read: 50% probability) to prevent the cyclopes from attacking at all. That's why Storm Wind is often taken (if any forum users still haven't realized this), to protect yourself from griffins and other flyers.

But who said only the Orc knows how to split his army? And that the Knight didn't find a secondary dwelling where they could get a fast low-level unit—a dancer or a fury, for example? And many other races don't even need to look...

Moreover, at least 150 chieftains are needed—15 weekly growths. If a native secondary isn't found very quickly, then this is no longer the late game (and the second month is already the late game :) ) but some strange understanding of heroes. 4

Conclusion: the tactic exists, it can be effective, but it doesn't qualify as an uber-weapon for the Orc, and often it doesn't even justify splitting the army

Let's try to figure out where I'm not being honest.

He's not an idiot, of course. But the opponent with Tactics will also try to reach the Orc in one turn and position his strike units closer to us, which is actually beneficial for us.

The strength of this tactic lies in its unexpectedness for the enemy - few people know about it.

Then the Daughters and Chieftains take over - these are also not insignificant strike units. The Cyclops simply stand still, as their initiative will be noticeably reduced compared to the Knight's magic resistance.

I agree, it's not weak. But what a beautiful and impressive victory you get in this case! The opponent simply stares in bewilderment at the endless turns of the Cyclops and curses through his teeth.

I'll reveal a "terrible secret" - when fighting the Elf, I didn't have Education at the time of the encounter, but in terms of parameters, I wasn't inferior to the Ranger. Bugs in the Orcish Education, such bugs... And I'm a terrible bug abuser...

When the Psionic came up with this tactic, he specifically clarified that it was "tailored" for a long game with several Castles - it is then that a sufficiently powerful strike force and the necessary number of "boosting" units are gathered, so maps like "Three Rivers" and similar ones are helpful to us.

If the Knight knows that this scheme will be used against him, then yes. But how will he know that?

Yes, you are right. This is exactly why Spell Power is needed. Because all sorts of Elves have Dryads and Dragons, who can immediately rush into our ranks and block the stack of Cyclops. The Knight has the highest initiative stack - Griffins. This is what is weakened. At the same time, the profile magic of Light, which the Knight often uses, will also be weakened, as well as such an unpleasant thing as Divine Vengeance for the Seraphs, because the kill count for the Cyclops will be off the charts.

And you can also thin out the Knight's army as much as possible and run away when things start to look bad. And then return with Centaurs, Goblins, Warmongers and Wyverns and mercilessly finish him off.

It seems like everyone knows about this tactic now, even those who didn't want to.:smile04:

I understand all of that, but against an Orc, I would still give the Knight Darkness, just for the ability to use the combination of readiness + vampirism + alternate griffons. And I repeat, there are fast units from other factions that don't care about Shield of Valor!
:D

It's interesting what you can do with vampirism against Orcs, if only to drain their Rage!

You couldn't put it better, it's exactly like sucking the life out of them. :smile24: -90 for each instance of Draining + the damage lost from the absorbed damage, and with alternate griffons, it happens twice each time with increasing damage.:D

This is all understandable, but against an Orc, I would still give the Knight Darkness, just for the opportunity to use the combination of Readiness + Vampirism + Alternate Griffons.

2 TerMinator

And the griffins will indeed have a double retaliation readiness – before and after the enemy stack attacks.

each time in a double version with increasing damage.:D

hehe, regarding griffins: I only know about combat and 1.5 damage for each subsequent counterattack, but not how it can be doubled:eek

How do you know that he understands the game better than I do? Maybe we played together, or maybe you did? Apply what you wrote above to yourself! :)

You should better not interfere in other people's messages; I think he will find the answer if he needs it, even without you!

Before the Readiness ability can be put to use, you need to wait for the turn order and have the unit defend.

Vampirism is a good spell, but it will reduce the morale of the stack to zero. And you need to spend the hero's turn to cast it. And the Battle Griffons under Storm Wind will stand there without morale while the rest of the army is mercilessly cut down.

Even with Keen Mind, a hero cannot cast spells before the Cyclops' first turn. The hero's initiative is 10 and does not change. Keen Mind advances the hero by 25% on the turn order scale. The initiative of Daughters of Earth and War Chiefs upon entering battle at level 1 of Fury is 16 and 15 without artifacts, respectively. Artifacts can further increase it. The screenshots of the start of the battle (which I posted earlier) show the order in which the Orc units and the enemy hero with Keen Mind take their turns. Out of 10 attempts, the hero with Keen Mind only overtook 1 War Chief on the turn order scale 2 times. Remember, this is without initiative artifacts. In addition to rings that provide +10% and +20% to initiative, War Chiefs can also be accelerated by dragon artifacts as melee units (+10%) and as "small" units (+5%). Shamans can be accelerated as melee units (+10%), as casters (+10%), and as "small" units (+5%). This scheme does not include flying units (whose initiative can be reduced with Storm Wind) or ranged units (whose initiative can be reduced with Misty Veil). That is, to reduce our initiative, the enemy will have to find the Relic Staff of the Underworld.
After entering the battle, the Daughters cast Haste on the War Chiefs, and their initiative becomes even higher.
Each turn of the War Chiefs moves the Cyclops up the turn order scale. 3 stacks of War Chiefs with 50-60 units in each stack guarantee 2 and possibly 3 turns for the Cyclops before the hero with Keen Mind.
It looks something like this:
A stack of War Chiefs moves the Cyclops 60% up the turn order scale (60 is the maximum possible shift), meaning the Cyclops go immediately. If the Cyclops' morale does not trigger, they move to position 0 on the scale and need 2 "pushes" from the War Chiefs to move to position 1 and attack. If morale does trigger, they move to position 0.5 and after one "push" they attack again. If morale triggers again, the third attack of the Cyclops will again be possible after one "push". Thus, 3 attacks by the Cyclops are possible before the hero with Keen Mind takes his turn.
And let's not forget about War Cry. At level 30, it will move them up 70% on the ATB scale, and our hero may well go earlier with the same Keen Mind and/or Empathy/Knight set, which will be effective with the high initiative of our units (units go more often => morale triggers more often => the hero moves up the scale more effectively => more often moves the Cyclops).