Posts from Orcs vs. Humans

Well, just scatter in different directions and deal with the goblins with blight; honestly, I don't know anything else.

:)
I thought it would be something more sophisticated; maybe the great tactician antonag07 knows?

:)
I thought it was something more sophisticated; maybe the great tactician antonag07 knows?

Lordesat : Let's learn proper Russian and politeness; at the same time, it wouldn't hurt some people to try to use their brains a little - otherwise, someone asks a question, and after receiving an answer, instead of words of gratitude, we can only see a condescending comment: they say, I already knew that, tell me something I don't know:rolleyes:

Lordesat : Let's learn proper Russian and politeness; at the same time, it wouldn't hurt some people to try and use their brains.

:) Okay, let's try this: Dear Antonag07, would you be so kind as to tell us ways to counter mind control? No?:confused: Then I can suggest these: demons, adepts, heroes from another faction, etc. However, in many cases, these methods, like most others, are not feasible, and the Orcs always lose to the hero with mind control.

There are some misunderstandings here:
If a Knight trains Paladins and rushes forward to attack, it means the Orc has problems because his rage definitely won't save him from that much damage, and Archangels can help without getting into the thick of it – they can resurrect!

The Knight will position his attack stacks in front, thinking he will be attacking, but who is going to give him that opportunity? After a couple of attacks from Cyclops before the enemy hero's turn, most of the army will already be destroyed.

The Orc will immediately take down (if lucky) or kill most of them (most often the free Cyclops!), and it will be easier, and the ability of the Harpy will not work so well (or rather, it won't work at all!) because the Paladins will have more space to gain momentum with that tactic!

The Paladins won't gain momentum – they will either be killed or thinned out and blocked. The Knight's tactic will play into our hands here – it will bring us closer to the enemy, not the enemy to us.

The problem is how the Orc will counter this, unless he has high initiative and attack! (if the Orc's attack significantly exceeds our defense, then the first spell should be mass stone skin!)

The problem is that when it's the Knight's turn to cast spells, he will look at the remnants of his army and there will be no need to apply mass stone skin or mass haste – there won't be anyone left to cast them on (and we shouldn't forget about Light Dampening). Only Subdue will stop the attack stack of the Orcs' relentless war machine. But even then, the Chieftains and Daughters will be able to finish off the remnants while the Cyclops will be significantly slowed down due to the Knight's low skill point (SP) stat (penalty on Subdue).

And even if the Orc doesn't use the Knight's tactic, he won't have an advantage in positioning casters and archers; Armored Warriors or Zealots can protect us from Centaurs and Cyclops (throwing Goblins)!

Take a look at a replay of a duel preset built according to this scheme – it clearly shows how Cyclops are excellent at tearing apart such "boxes" with casters and archers, protected by defensive units. Against Cyclops, it is better to try to spread out the troops across the field, which is often impossible.

The situation is clearly not in the Orc's favor, IF he has an initiative advantage, then the Cyclops will quickly come to us(((but you can sacrifice Griffins to block the approach to the main troops!

But I think the opposite is true. :)
By the way, Griffins will be nerfed in initiative with Storm Wind, and they are not good as blockers – they are crushed like paper.

Since we've already discussed how to counter Orcs against Haven and Dungeon, I unfortunately don't know any other ways to combat their domination besides the ones mentioned above...

Mdance, if you're talking about the late game, I completely disagree that the so-called orc war machine can easily defeat a knight's army, leaving nothing of the first tier!... You might be a pro at this, but according to you, it seems like Haven has absolutely no chance, even against Dungeon! (clearing the boxes)... because we'll be defeated before we even reach the first tier!!! And Haven should also consider whether it's worth sending everyone forward; maybe they should only send the knights!! And according to you, it seems like you have more artifacts for initiative (as Orc)... so, if you don't rush into melee combat (with knights) on the first turn, then after mass slowing down our hero, the Orc won't even be able to move... you're spouting some nonsense... (IMO)... I've seen many battles where Haven easily defeats Orc, even against Dungeon, but for Orc to beat Dungeon, it needs a huge initiative advantage!

And why don’t you take into account, besides the artifacts on the initiative, the points of rage? After all, they also increase some characteristics and give new abilities to the units of the Stronghold. And I guess you know that the points of rage absorb the damage dealt. Imagine any stack of Orcs with points of rage, for example, in the amount of 2000 units.

Only Subjugation can stop the powerful stack of the Orcs' relentless war machine. But even then, the Chieftains and Daughters can finish off the remaining units while the Cyclops will be significantly slowed down due to the Knight's low Defense skill (penalty on Subjugation).

That's exactly what I'm saying – it's enough to quickly use Subjugation on the Cyclops, and then the Knights will quickly eliminate the Shamans and Chieftains. After that, they can deal with the Cyclops. It's not even certain that the Cyclops will get a turn before the hero's turn, let alone several turns. And that once again speaks in favor of Darkness against Orcs. :) And if Vampirism is also present, that's even better.
P.S. I watched the replay – it's just another inconclusive and unconvincing match. If Mdance had provided a proper replay with decent players (and he was offered to play), I think many new nuances would have emerged that should be discussed.

KillAndAction, but don't Orcs start with 2000 rage right at the beginning of the battle?
Just to reiterate, we're talking about the late game (levels 30-34), and even if the Knight trains horses, no amount of rage will save them from their attack! (I'm talking about the fact that in Haven, they always go first).
And what abilities are we even talking about if the Orc is affected by mass slow? (all initiative goes down the drain), and then mass confusion, and all their attacks are useless (we smile and wave at the warmongers)...
The most important thing is to control the Cyclops, and if they haven't reached us yet, then everything is fine, but if they have already managed to hit us hard, then oh oh, the Knight should be worried!
I think the Orc's chances are about 40% if the Haven has Light and Darkness, and 60% in favor of Haven!
DARKNESS decides!

KillAndAction And what abilities are we talking about if the Orc is affected by mass slow? (all initiative goes down the drain), and then mass confusion, all resistance goes down the drain (we smile and wave at the warmongers)...

If you cast various slows and confusions at the beginning, the Cyclops will definitely reach the Knights. And if that happens, the army is doomed. You don't need to worry about the Warmongers; most likely, with this tactic, there won't be any in the Orc's army. You simply need to use your wits so that the hero casts Dominate on them before the Cyclops' first turn. Then you can indulge in confusion and slow, although I doubt they will be needed.

Should I use a "shock stack" tactic?... hmm... I know it's possible and I've even experienced it myself:(
But is it wise to do so when the opponent is of equal experience and also has powerful artifacts?
And in such a situation, I think for the Hive, it's better to build units without clustering them together, but to keep the horses and archangels at a normal distance (i.e., so that they are not hit by a single attack), but at the same time, they can support each other:
1. Knights attack, angels help (this usually happens if the knights attack successfully and most of the cyclops are already resting).
2. Knights attack, angels resurrect.
..................
In case the Hive player doesn't notice that the tactic has failed (at the beginning of the battle), then it's worth considering whether to send the angels and knights forward? (This is not a very common situation, but it still happens). Most often, the Orc has a tactic.
It's easier for us here because if we have at least two artifacts that reduce speed by -1, then the cyclops will hardly reach us quickly (even if their initiative is higher).
We can still hit this stack quite well^^
As Lordesat said, we can risk using "Dominate" with the hero.
But mass "Dispel" gives us an advantage that is no worse than this because the only thing we are afraid of at the moment is:
1. A quick, powerful attack (mass "Slow" helps).
2. And a strong counterattack with rage buildup (mass "Dispel" solves a lot).
(If you use "Dominate," there is a risk of failure, so I would use corresponding artifacts to protect myself, unless there are other ideas).
Yes, the Orc cannot silence two spells at once (unless with goblins, which is one of the important problems when fighting against the Orc in the late game)

KillAndAction, don't Orcs start with 2000 Fury right at the beginning of the battle?
You need to read the messages carefully and not take words out of context, and then there won't be any misunderstandings...:p
In 5-6 rounds of battle, they accumulate an average of 1600 to 2300 Fury points.

Yes, they will gather if you don't attack them!:smile06:

Yes, but not quite... For example, you can use battle cries. And then, you earn points from different actions, even from enemy spells...

You simply need a sharp mind to have your hero cast Subjugate on the Cyclops before their first turn.

It won't be possible for the hero to cast Subjugate before the Cyclops' first turn, even with Sharp Mind. The hero's initiative is 10 and doesn't change. Sharp Mind will advance the hero by 25% on the scale. The Daughters of Earth and Warlords have an initiative of 16 and 15, respectively, when entering battle at level 1 of Fury without artifacts. It can be increased even further with artifacts. The screenshots of the start of the battle (which I posted earlier) show the order in which the Orc units and the enemy hero with Sharp Mind move. Out of 10 attempts, the hero with Sharp Mind only overtook 1 Warlord on the scale 2 times. Remember, this is without initiative artifacts. In addition to rings that provide +10% and +20% to initiative, Warlords can also be accelerated by dragon artifacts as melee units (+10%) and as "small" units (+5%). Shamans can be accelerated as melee units (+10%), as casters (+10%), and as "small" units (+5%). This scheme does not include flying units (whose initiative can be reduced with Storm Wind) or ranged units (whose initiative can be reduced with Misty Veil). That is, to reduce our initiative, the enemy will have to find the Relic Staff of the Underworld.
After entering the battle, the Daughters cast Haste on the Warlords, and their initiative becomes even higher.
Each turn of the Warlords moves the Cyclops up the scale. 3 stacks of Warlords with 50-60 units in each stack guarantee 2 and possibly 3 turns for the Cyclops before the hero with Sharp Mind.
It looks something like this:
A stack of Warlords moves the Cyclops 60% up the scale (60 is the maximum possible shift), meaning the Cyclops go immediately. If the Cyclops' morale doesn't trigger, they move to position 0 on the scale and need 2 "nudges" from the Warlords to move to position 1 and attack. If morale does trigger, they go to position 0.5 and after one "nudge" they attack again. If morale triggers again, the third attack of the Cyclops will again be possible after one "nudge". Thus, 3 attacks by the Cyclops are possible before the hero with Sharp Mind.
And let's not forget about War Cry. At level 30, it will move them up 70% on the ATB, and our hero may very well go earlier with the same Sharp Mind and/or Empathy/Knight set, which will be effective with the high initiative of our units (units go more often => morale triggers more often => the hero moves up the scale more effectively => moves the Cyclops more often).