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Posts from Walkthroughs for custom maps.

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In reply to Dirty_Player
5 years ago
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Dirty_Player
Morality isn't the issue here; the important thing is that they stay in place. In online play, this is needed to immediately place two walls (for example, in a choke point) or sometimes used in a "wall, damage spell, wall" combination. When damage is insufficient, they need to start immediately behind two walls. From the starting positions, almost all units take significant damage. Then, when they move back through the two walls, the units will die.
Yes, but I've never seen such applications in online play. In online play, when more than two wall segments are needed, they don't use a single stack; instead, they send units in groups of one, as your initial battle scenario shows. Staying behind one wall to cast a damage spell on the second turn and reduce the task to two walls – yes. Staying behind a wall to cast something unpleasant, like a curse or oil – yes. But I haven't seen a case where a wall is placed close by, and then two other walls are placed in a completely different location. Yes, I don't watch everything, but the most interesting battles are shown in highlights. Well, if you can provide a real example from online games, then it's a different story. But the reference to online play isn't clear to me. I assume that Obi and Marlo are on the same wavelength as Dirty, and Obi's solution involves an instinctive first move, which is more of a priority for some. But the strategy of looking for the "brightest spot" isn't always a good approach.
5 years ago
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I apologize, is it just me, or does page 243 not open? For some reason, any attempt to open it redirects to page 242.
In reply to Dandy
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5 years ago
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Dandy
Yes, but I've never seen such tactics used online. Online, if more than two wall segments are needed, they don't use a single stack; instead, they send units in groups of one, which is what your initial battle scenario shows. Staying behind a single wall to unleash a powerful spell on the second turn and reduce the problem to two walls – yes. Staying behind a wall to cast something unpleasant, like Slow or Curse – yes. But I haven't seen a case where a wall is placed right next to the enemy, and then two other walls are placed somewhere else. Yes, I don't watch everything, but the most interesting battles are usually highlighted. If you can provide a real example from online games, that would be a different story. But I don't understand the reference to online play.
The reference was specifically about placing a wall and then taking some action. And "a wall right next to the enemy and two walls somewhere else" is a standard situation when there's not much damage, but it's rare in online play; it's more common in offline games. I used it once when attacking a Guardian with bears and 4 spellcasters, but it was a one-off.
Dandy
I assume Obi and Marlo were on the same wave with Dirty, and Obi's solution involves an instinctive first move, which is more important for some. But the strategy of looking for the "brightest" spot isn't always a good approach.
I think there are many more solutions to this wall puzzle than just one. The fact that at least three people solved it independently without any hints, and obviously in different ways, suggests that the puzzle isn't extremely difficult.
And can you provide a link to the author's solution, which is hard to find?
LordL
I apologize, is it just me, or does page 243 not open? For some reason, any attempt to open it opens page 242.
It's fixed!
In reply to Dirty_Player
5 years ago
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Dirty_Player
I think this puzzle with the walls has many more solutions than just one. The fact that at least three people solved it without hints, independently of each other, and obviously in different ways, suggests that the puzzle is not extremely difficult.
And could you provide a link to the author's solution, which is hard to find?
I have no doubt that the first 5 rounds have the same solution for everyone.
And yes, it's tied to the cavalry bonus.
In reply to Nasos
5 years ago
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Nasos
Actually, the old guard, represented by Dirty, has already shown that the new additions aren't ready to compete with them yet.
Or is it? And what are these conclusions based on?
In reply to Dandy
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5 years ago
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Dandy
I have no doubt that the first 5 rounds, everyone will make the same decision.
And yes, it's tied to the cavalry bonus.
If that's the case, then it's easily discoverable.
In reply to Dirty_Player
5 years ago
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Dirty_Player
If that's the case, then it's easily discoverable.
Due to the "default" "obvious" first move - yes.
But changing one hex of obstacles and imposing a much stricter mana limit in this battle would make that first move incorrect.
In reply to Nasos
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5 years ago
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Nasos
Actually, the old guard, represented by Dirty, has already shown that it's too early for the new players to compete with them.
I haven't shown anything for many years, but I dream that someday there will be a tournament where the strongest players of the past and present will meet, and I will have the opportunity to show something. But I'm afraid that this is unlikely in the current circumstances.

Added 4 minutes later
Dandy
Yes, due to the "default" "obvious" first move.
But if you change one hex of obstacles in this battle and set a much stricter mana limit, such a first move would be incorrect.
Well, you can set conditions that make the battle impossible (for example, give mana for only 1 wall), but why? I am generally in favor of giving more opportunities for solutions; even extra units would provide a lot of solution options. This would benefit everyone, both beginners and experienced players. But the question is, who is this map for? For the masses or a challenge map where you have to find the only solution?
In reply to Dirty_Player
5 years ago
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Dirty_Player
I haven't shown anything for many years, but I dream that someday there will be a tournament where the strongest players of the past and present will meet, and there will be an opportunity to show something. But I'm afraid that this is unlikely in the current reality.
Dirty is a player who impresses not only online but also offline; at least, he has rare and interesting attempts at battles or small sections of the map.
But the problem is that these attempts are very rare. In the last 5 years, during which I've been on this forum, I only remember 2 cases: an exploration of a quick Walkthrough of the Lime maps, starting with cows - but that Walkthrough wasn't even close to being completed, and he tried it just now. He hasn't completed any difficult maps or puzzle maps that test understanding of the mechanics - at least, I haven't seen any feedback about it here. Can Dirty show a good result in a hypothetical offline tournament? Given his past achievements and the fact that he shows signs of activity even online, this is possible, and I would prefer to believe it. Can Dirty and representatives of the old guard easily outperform the new generation? Leaving aside who the old guard is and what the new generation is, I haven't seen any clear evidence of this yet.
Dirty_Player

You can set conditions that make the battle completely impossible (for example, give mana for only 1 wall).
But the battle would still be passable.
Dirty_Player

, but why? I am generally in favor of giving more opportunities for solutions; even extra units would provide many options. Everyone would benefit from this, both beginners and experienced players. But the question is, who is this map for? For the masses or a challenge map where you need to find a single solution?
This is a typical puzzle map that tests understanding of the game and its mechanics, usually implying a single solution, which can usually be reached logically, and if trial and error or catching morale/abilities is used, then only in a small scale, besides this battle. In general, what does it mean for the masses? For the masses, I would probably only name Paragon. And even then, only because it has a plot + the circumstances were favorable from a marketing point of view. The difficulty of Paragon is not high, but it was already a revelation for these very masses. In my opinion, you need to hook the masses with something, and from my point of view, beautiful and elegant solutions, which are found in half of the battles on this map, are definitely the right step in terms of recognition.
5 years ago
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The events of the last few days in this thread give the impression that the single-player part of the community (that is, the part that plays Heroes in single-player maps, not in multiplayer) lacks some kind of competitive spirit. Suddenly, people appear who say that someone is playing unfairly (unfairly to whom?). Or that there is some "old guard" of true Heroes masters, and everyone else is not true and generally plays somehow incorrectly. If the desire to prove one's superiority over someone continues to grow like this, then, apparently, we will simply be forced to come up with a way to prove it in practice.
In reply to LordL
5 years ago
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LordL
Or is there some kind of "old guard" of true Heroes masters, and everyone else isn't "true" and generally plays somehow "wrong."
Well, that's Leader1 pushing that narrative; I'm just stating that Dirty easily won a difficult match against Dandy. Which says something about his skill and abilities.
In reply to LordL
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5 years ago
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Dandy
Dirty is a player who appeals not only in online but also in offline games; at least, he occasionally tackles interesting challenges related to battles or small sections of the map.
However, the problem is that these challenges are very rare. Over the past 5 years, since I registered on this forum, I only remember 2 instances: exploring a quick walkthrough for the Limes map, starting with the cow rush – but that walkthrough wasn't even close to being completed, and now he's trying it again. He hasn't completed any difficult maps or puzzle maps that require understanding the mechanics – at least, I haven't seen any feedback about it here.
I don't have enough free time to invest in completing a map. To complete the same Limes map properly, it would definitely take about a month of real time. I can't afford such a luxury just for fun. And I can't simply click through the map just to complete it, due to my principles.
Dandy
So, the battle would still be passable.
If it's still passable, then a solution will be found. I repeat, I found the first solution that meets the requirements of the task; why should I look for others? I suggest we end the discussion about this battle; it's clearly not worth it.
Dandy
For the masses, I would probably only name Paragon. And that's only because it has a plot + the circumstances were favorable from a marketing perspective. The difficulty of Paragon is not high, but it was a revelation for these very masses. In my opinion, you need to engage the masses with something, and from my point of view, the beautiful and elegant solutions that can be found in half of the battles in this map are definitely the right step towards recognition.
It is wrong to assume that the measure of skill is a large, complex map that only a few can complete. This will definitely not appeal to the masses. In my opinion, there needs to be a balance between difficulty, spectacle, and the amount of effort required. In online games, the Jebus Cross template has become such a balance.
LordL
The events of the last few days in this thread give the impression that the single-player community (that is, the one that plays Heroes in single-player maps, and not in Multiplayer) lacks some kind of competitive spirit.
I've been saying this for at least 10 years. I would never have started playing online if offline tournaments were as active as they were in 2008 and earlier, when 50-100 people could participate in a tournament. I need excitement, a social atmosphere, etc. Unfortunately, for current players, it's much easier to sit down, play online, and forget about it than to complete a difficult map, because you have to think, not just move pieces around, and not everyone needs that.
Dandy
Can Dirty and representatives of the old guard easily outperform the new generation? Leaving aside the question of who the old guard is and what the new generation is, I don't see any obvious prerequisites for this yet.
LordL
Or that there is some "old guard" of true Heroes masters, and everyone else is not true and generally plays somehow wrong.
In reality, there is no old guard. Many players were not competitive even then, and even less so now. There were a few truly strong players who won tournaments. But whether they could do anything now is hard to say, because there is no one to fight.
What do we know about the new generation? Well, there are some players who complete certain maps. It's even harder to assess their level. Well, a player completed a map in X days. So what? It's not clear whether that's good or bad. Without a competitive element, it is impossible to determine a player's strength. And you need a new map each time, because the fact that someone has completed, for example, Metataxер, while looking at the description where each battle has already been completed for a long time, doesn't say anything.
Dandy
Can Dirty show a good result in a hypothetical offline tournament?
If such a hypothetical offline tournament happens, I will be happy to prove something to the skeptics.
In reply to Marlo_Stanfield
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5 years ago
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Marlo_Stanfield
Does anyone else find the writings of this witness from DmitryAS's sect about horses and electric pumps strange? It would be good to exclude him from the topic, because you can't expect anything sensible from him in the future.
Exclude me completely
Otherwise, you might forget to ask.
Just do it quickly, before I change my mind.

LordL
Suddenly, people appear who say that someone is playing unfairly (unfairly to whom?).
Unfairly to the game itself.
LordL
Or that there is some "old guard" of true Heroes masters, and everyone else is not true and generally plays somehow wrong.
That's not the point. There are also great "true" players now.

I just meant that when offline play was competitive, there was also a list of banned bugs.

Therefore, using the Admiral's Hat in that negative sense, and even calling it a "walkthrough," is shameful.

But some beer-drinking artmoney enthusiasts are really upset that someone is "preventing" them from playing the way they want.
Questioning their exemplary "walkthrough." ))
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5 years ago
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You don't need to ask me. Simply presenting a position in a way that suggests "I'll just throw it out there and make it stronger" doesn't make it more convincing. Compare, for example, how Dirty writes in this thread, sharing some of your views, and how you do it. Your posts are simply unpleasant to read. Although I don't rule out that your initial intention is for them to be irritating. I understand.

Regarding all these arguments about bug exploitation and the cohort of "true" players, I remembered a post by one of the moderators of the Heroesportal website, who was previously an active participant in offline tournaments and a person who repeatedly took prize-winning places in these very tournaments, including competing with some of the people mentioned in this thread. So, Symphony Messes, in a thread about the Paragon map, writes that in one of his playthroughs for himself (not in a tournament), he used methods that violated the rules of offline tournaments (obviously, including the Admiral's hat bug). But I didn't notice any wave of outrage under his post or exclusion from tournaments based on this fact. Or a sharp casualization of everyone around It was just fun for him to play that way.

I can still understand when claims are made against players if they are unable to complete a map without bug exploitation; there is some reason for that. But both wenwell and sanyassh have proven themselves to be people who have a good understanding of the game. In that case, let them do playthroughs, even if they stand on their heads; it won't say anything about their gaming level, and even less about the gaming level of other people in the thread.
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In reply to Marlo_Stanfield
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5 years ago
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Marlo_Stanfield
You don't need to ask me. Simply presenting a position in the spirit of "let me just throw it out there and see how it sticks" doesn't make it more convincing.
And I don't have the goal of trying to convince anyone of anything. I expressed my opinion and that's it, I moved on (yeah, I crapped in your sweet honey pot). Sorry, guys, for barging into your cozy and chill topic where people start playing with visited tents, win on the first day playing as Red, use cheats, and call it a "Walkthrough." That word triggers me. It's absurd to me.
These are critical bugs in the game mechanics. Critically important. It's good when you're a tester in game development. But come on.

And then nwcredpill is also considered a Walkthrough. And anyone who talks about it seriously should also remember to take their pills.
Author
//I understand.
Marlo_Stanfield

with somewhat out-of-place mentions by respected people in this topic
But in my opinion, it's very much in place. And it's more about the era itself than about specific people. Back then, there was a culture of offline play. And you wouldn't even think about seriously talking about completing a map with cheats.
(And moreover, even for discussing bugs on the same forum, you'd get a slap on the wrist).
Marlo_Stanfield

I still understand when complaints are made to players if they are unable to complete a map without using bugs, there is some reason for that.
But I don't understand how this can be called a Walkthrough in principle, regardless of whether the player is able to complete the map or not. It's just /trash
Marlo_Stanfield

In that case, let them make Walkthroughs, even if they're standing on their heads, it won't say anything about their skill level, and even less about the skill level of other people in the topic.
Well, everyone does as they please, as they say, but it's not a Walkthrough.
"Just for fun," "for the lulz," or "mom, mom, look, I completed the map in one day," etc., but nothing more.
Put a disclaimer so as not to get confused. That's all from me.

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