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Posts from UNIT - Creature Balance + Visual Changes Auto-translated

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#273
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Nargott
Now imagine Multiplayer, where you're playing against an opponent who takes an hour per turn, constantly resurrecting units with a tent until they're blue in the face. :)
They stand in a solid defense and resurrect, even though they could quickly finish off the enemy, but they drag it out to fully and freely restore all losses.
It's not 5 shots, not 10, and not even 20, but 100, meaning it's specifically unlimited!

The most annoying thing I've seen in Disciples 2 was exactly this kind of healing when playing as Humans/Elves. While you're blocking and healing, and at the same time killing the enemy with archers, that's normal. But if you leave the enemy's last unit alive and start healing faster than it can attack, and the archers just skip their turns, it starts to feel like a perversion. And you can't give it up because it's effective (free and unlimited).

It's easier to compensate for the percentage of losses with scripts, if a tent is present. For example, like this: reduces losses after battle by 10/20/30/40% (depending on the skill). It will be almost the same, only without wasting time.
especially if the last enemy doesn't deal damage, but heals/paralyzes/petrifies/gives extra attack/increases attack
But in my opinion, the tent should still increase the number of shots to at least 5-7

Added 7 minutes ago
Comrades, what if we calculate the tent's effect using the formula: base healing + average attack and defense, multiplied by some factor (e.g., 50)?
Let's take an average: we have a hero with 25 attack and 15 defense, the average is 20, multiplied by 50, that's a thousand. Very good, with 5 shots, it will give 5 * 1100 = 5500 HP per battle. When the armies are large, it will be relatively normal. And it won't be unbalanced at low levels, because there aren't many attacks and defenses there

Added 3 minutes ago
another question, is it possible to make resurrection based on units? for example, the level is determined, and depending on the level, a certain number of units are resurrected
"Астельнаир, мод добавляющий новых существ и многое другое (разработка)"
И пусть Эльрат осветит твой путь
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#274
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"Frozensoull"
In theory, it's possible, but many factors need to be considered, such as the low speed of the last enemy stack or the high speed of friendly units (or the enemy stack having no retaliation), the absence of an uncontrollable ballista, an underdeveloped enemy hero (or its complete absence), and many other factors. There are too many "ifs." In any case, it's just pointless fiddling. Besides, the tent can be destroyed.
Exactly, it's just "pointless fiddling." Why motivate players to do this when there are already specialized websites? :)
It's not critical for you because you're not willing to sacrifice time for efficiency (but you encourage other players to do so).
Why does the tent have 100 shots instead of 10? Wouldn't 10 be enough for most battles?
As an option. Has something like this been implemented anywhere before? It's interesting how it would look in practice.
No + I forgot that scripts are a problem for you (you haven't worked with them).
Then, maybe you could just increase the tent's initiative and keep the number of shots at 10? To achieve the desired effect with minimal effort, but without exploiting the game.
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#275
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In my opinion, griffons through a guild isn't the right approach. It would be better to implement it like the elves: monks through a guild, and griffons separately.
У меча предназначения два острия, одно из них ты.

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2,3,4,5
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#276
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Nargott

It's not critical for you because you're not willing to sacrifice time for efficiency.
Hmm... how should I understand that now?
Nargott

(and you encourage other players to do so)
And this?

I've sacrificed enough of my time developing this mod; if not for efficiency, then what was all this work for? :confused: This project exists solely thanks to my enthusiasm, and I, more than anyone, am interested in the overall efficiency of the mod.
Nargott

Why does the tent have 100 shots instead of 10? Wouldn't 10 be enough for most battles?

In most cases, 10 is enough. Perhaps it could be limited to even less than 10. But still, I don't see any compelling arguments against an unlimited number, except for prolonging the game time (and even that is debatable, as the tent can always be destroyed), not to mention the ridiculously small amount of health it heals.
Personally, I think this factor is not as significant as the amount of debate it has generated.
Looking at a fly through a microscope can also make you horrified by its size and cause panic, but in reality, just one tablet... that is, a fly swatter... is enough.
Nargott

No + I forgot that scripts are a problem for you (you haven't worked with them).

You can't forget something you don't know for sure.
Nargott

Then, maybe you could just increase the initiative of the tent and set it to 10 shots? So that with minimal effort, but without abuse.

The tent should be effective throughout the battle; otherwise, what's the point? Units don't have the same limitation; an archer doesn't fire 5 shots and then just stand there like a statue, exposing himself to attacks. He stands there, endures, and can't retaliate with even a melee attack. And war machines are just as much combat units as creatures, only in a single instance.

-----------------------------------------
Your understanding of balance has been clear to me for a long time, as has the situations in which you, in your characteristic, sharp, and tactless manner, begin to impose your opinion. I also realized that in those moments when you run out of arguments in favor of your point of view, you start to attack personally and make accusations, which is not beautiful, but what can you do... What I don't understand is what goals you pursue when you go to someone else's monastery with your own rules???
Interested
In my opinion, griffons through the guild are not right. Make it better like the elves: monks through the guild, and griffons as they are.

Do you happen to have any third-party mods installed? The Tower of Griffons is not connected to the Mage Guild in any way. I can take a screenshot of the new city tree for you tonight.
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.

[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

Карты для Heroes V 3.1:

[Карта][1x1]The Last Stand - Дуэльная карта финальных битв


Группа VK:
https://vk.com/club176978884
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#277
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"Frozensoull"
I have invested enough time in developing this mod; if not for efficiency, then what was all this work for?
This project exists solely thanks to my enthusiasm, and I, more than anyone, am interested in the overall efficiency of the mod.
Why are you all turning this into a confrontation? We were only talking about wasting game time using those 100 healing spells from the tent, and nothing more.
You clearly stated that you won't suffer from this and will use the 100 healing spell exploit, i.e., you agree to accept losses (less efficiently fought battle). But someone else will. And it might be your opponent. Who, having learned to use the exploit, will go into a demonstrably more difficult battle with the tent, which cannot be normally won without the exploit, and will keep using it until they succeed. And given the tent's small power (only 100), it will take a long time to resurrect.

I apologize for not expressing myself clearly enough and for you thinking that I was going to offend you.

Added 1 minute ago
In most cases, it's enough. Perhaps it could be limited to an even smaller number than 100. But still, I don't see any strong arguments against an unlimited number, except for prolonging the game time (and even that is debatable, as the tent can always be destroyed), not to mention the ridiculous amount of health being healed.
Who will destroy it – the neutrals? Neutrals are not capable of intentionally destroying anything. In PvP, a million heals doesn't matter, but it does in PvE. It seems like you don't even play Multiplayer if you're not afraid that the opponent will prolong PvE battles for 100 rounds to fully recover losses. And even a turn timer won't help here if it's the last battle in that turn.

Added 1 minute ago
You can't forget what you don't know for sure.
Your mod doesn't use scripts, therefore, you haven't worked with them, therefore mastering them is an additional problem.
For me, for example, hacking the executable is a problem; I haven't worked with it and probably won't, although there is potential for improving the game here.

If I'm wrong, and you are familiar with scripts, then what prevents you from implementing the recovery of losses after the battle, instead of 100 heals during the battle?

Added 21 minutes ago
Do you happen to have third-party mods installed? The Griffin Tower is not related to the Guild of Mages. I can take a screenshot of the new city tree for you tonight.
If you just changed the tiers of creatures, then it is quite possible that the buildings will remain in place, but at the same time, for building a monastery (which comes from the Guild), they will give you Griffins. Most likely, that's what it's about.

Added 17 minutes ago
Leave the tent with 100 heals if you want. This is a fair decision (although the ballista really has an infinite number of shots, not 100). But this is a decision that will inevitably backfire in the cases I wrote about. I have seen grindy battles and know what they are. I have described the consequences; whether you believe them or not is up to you.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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Автор Асимметричных шахмат
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#278
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Nargott
You can leave 100 heals on the tent if you want. That's a fair decision (although the ballista actually has an infinite number of shots, not 100). But this is a decision that will definitely backfire in the cases I wrote about. I've seen obsessive farming and I know what it's like. I've described the consequences; whether you believe them or not is up to you.
Earlier, I talked about how I used raising the dead. That is, having a tent didn't prevent me from obsessively farming neutral creatures to minimize losses. And having a tent with an infinite skill will speed up this process. That is, it will even be beneficial. At the same time, the tent heals such a small amount of HP that it is almost useless in the later stages, and you won't be able to infinitely delay the enemy unit, or the hero will run out of mana, or the enemy will be eaten by bees, or he will die from attrition. There is a very low probability that this will be a unit with Retaliation and the total damage of the squad is less than 100. Then it will really be a waste of time, and everything depends on the conscience of your opponent/partner.
Further debate can easily be avoided by making two mods, one with 100 charges and the other with 10.
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#279
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The overpowered nature of raising the dead is a separate issue (I've already expressed my opinion on this – I'm against this spell being a freebie for necromancers, except for Vlad). I enjoy playing as undead, but I dislike abusing the raise dead ability. There are also hydras/wyverns with regeneration, with which the tent works in a positive way, accelerating their full recovery. There is also the "regeneration" spell, with which the tent also works in a positive way. However, in all other situations, a tent with unlimited ammunition serves to prolong the battle. How to fix this: 10 healers. This should be enough to restore wyverns/hydras/creatures under regeneration on one hand, but it also won't allow the battle to be prolonged too much by healing in other situations. I don't see any point in making two versions of the mod, with 10 healers or with 100, because this aspect is not so critical; it's just unpleasant (due to the potential for abuse where there wasn't any before), but no more. The opponent may use this abuse, or they may not, and then everything is fine. In fact, I like 5-6 healers. I suggested 10 as a compromise. Why is 10 worse than 5-6? A normal battle lasts shorter; 10 already creates a motivation to prolong the battle, but at least to a moderate extent, unlike 100. To some extent, it is unfair to give the tent unlimited healing if compared to archers, whose ammunition is limited. The ballista has unlimited ammunition, but unfortunately, this cannot be fixed. Yes, archers can engage in melee combat; that's what makes them combat units, unlike the tent. But if these are standard (penalty) archers, then their melee combat is a desperate measure. In general, I've said everything – the decision is up to the author.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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#280
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Nargott

Who should be destroyed – the neutrals? Neutrals are not capable of purposefully destroying anything. In PvP, a million healers don't matter, but in PvE, they do. It seems like you don't even play Multiplayer if you're not afraid that the opponent will prolong PvE battles for 100 rounds to fully recover losses. And even a turn timer won't help here if it's the last battle in that turn.

Leave 100 healers for the tent if you want. This is a fair decision (although the ballista really has an infinite number of shots, not 100). But this is a decision that will definitely backfire in the cases I wrote about. I've seen grindy strategies and I know what they are. I described the consequences, whether you believe it or not is up to you.

As I said before, 100 uses is just a formality; in most cases, that many aren't needed. 10-15 would be enough. But again, everyone has their own opinion; some will say that even 2 is too many, while others will say that 50 is not enough. Perhaps it would be worth conducting some kind of mini-poll...
Nargott

Your mod doesn't use scripts, therefore you haven't worked with them, therefore mastering them is an additional problem.
For me, for example, hacking the executable is a problem; I haven't worked with it and probably won't, although there is potential to improve the game.

Scripts are not used in the mod for one simple reason – they are not needed. All the necessary changes were made using "standard tools," and there were always enough of them. In addition, scripts are also quite limited in the necessary functionality; they require a lot of time to write and debug (at least for me), and frankly, I don't see any particular need for them.
There are a few things that I really want to change, but for this, I need to modify the exe, which in turn will lead to incompatibility with many other mods, and I wouldn't want to limit users in this regard. So, almost every other mod comes with an exe file.
Nargott

If you just changed the tiers of creatures, then it is quite possible that the buildings will remain in their place, but at the same time, they will give griffins for building a monastery (which comes from the guild). Most likely, this is what it is about.

In addition to changing the tiers, the scripted names of dwellings were changed, and the city tree was rebuilt, with all the consequences. When installing the mod on a clean version, it should look like this:


As written in the topic header:
When installing with third-party mods, various conflicts may arise. It is recommended to use the original version of the game 3.1.
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.

[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

Карты для Heroes V 3.1:

[Карта][1x1]The Last Stand - Дуэльная карта финальных битв


Группа VK:
https://vk.com/club176978884
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#281
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"Frozensoull"
As I mentioned before, 100 uses is just a formality; in most cases, that many aren't needed. 10-15 would be more than enough. But again, everyone has their own opinion; some might say that even 2 is too many, while others might say that 50 is too few. Perhaps it would be worth conducting a mini-poll...
Yes, a vote specifically on this point would provide an answer; that's a good idea.
Honestly, I doubt anyone would say that 50 is too few.
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#282
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Since I don't see the attached image for the poll, I'm voting with this message: I'm in favor of 7-8 shots per turn.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#283
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My vote is 6.
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In reply to SRD
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#284
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SRD
Since I don't see an attached poll to the topic, I'm voting with this message: I'm in favor of 7-8 shots for the tent.

Unfortunately, I couldn't find a way to attach a poll to a specific post, so I suggest writing your options in the topic.
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.

[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

Карты для Heroes V 3.1:

[Карта][1x1]The Last Stand - Дуэльная карта финальных битв


Группа VK:
https://vk.com/club176978884
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#285
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I only use Unit2.3, but before that, I removed the changes for griffins, hydras, and monks. The problem is likely due to two mods that haven't been merged yet.
У меча предназначения два острия, одно из них ты.

Заинтересованный занимается написанием прохождений
Прохождения]
НЕКРОМАНТ

2,3,4,5
Заинтересованный планирует создать серию мультиплеерных карт "Фантазия безумного картострителей".
Миссия 1 - Фктиф-Зобар готова на 11,5%
#286
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It would be great to give the Tent the ability to revive one of the units after a battle (like with Eternal Slavery), while on the battlefield, it would only heal. Ideally, it would be possible to choose which unit to revive (like with Necromancy). Then, the number of charges could be set to 999. Otherwise, 10 is the absolute maximum.