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In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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Svercha;97994
If the save isn't accepted, then why are the rules allowing weakening if it's considered cheating?
Let me explain step by step:

1. On the map, there's a non-upgraded neutral creature. It either has an upgraded stack or it doesn't. This is determined at the beginning of the game. So, it doesn't appear only on the first attack; it's either always there or immediately absent... (We're not considering upgraded creatures, as the bug doesn't work there).

2. If there's no stack, there are no problems. We can attack these neutral creatures, use magic (or other means) to eliminate some units, and then retreat/lose. After this, the number of neutral creatures is reduced by exactly the number we destroyed. This is weakening – we CAN do this to allow a subsequent hero (on the same day or another day – it doesn't matter) to attack the neutral creatures and finish them off. It makes sense if we couldn't destroy the neutral creatures in one go. This is also true for guarding a resource or another object, where the guard is inside, not outside. :)

3. And now, the actual bug. If the neutral creature has an upgraded stack, after we retreat, all the remaining upgraded units will disappear. And the number will be reduced by the number we destroyed plus the disappeared upgraded units. For example, there were 100 Griffins, of which 34 were upgraded, and two stacks of 33 were not upgraded. We destroyed 15 non-upgraded units and retreated. As a result, there are 100-15-34=51 units left. On the next attack, some of these units will become upgraded again, for example, 17 Griffins (this is a feature of the cell where the neutral creature is located), and we can repeat the procedure – until we eliminate them all... :)

If we destroy the non-upgraded units and leave only the upgraded ones, the neutral creature will disappear from the map altogether.

This is the bug. It's prohibited. The scenario described in point 2 is weakening, but it's allowed. Find the difference. :)
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In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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A request for all tournaments: I've been meaning to say this for a while, but I keep forgetting – please make the "REPLAY 1 POST" button stick to the top... =))) It's really inconvenient to have to click it every time =))
играю на уровне AI !!:smile32: ;)
In reply to RAPER
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19 years ago
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RAPER;98027
I have a request for all tournaments – I've been wanting to say this for a long time, but I keep forgetting – PLEASE make the first post stick to the top. =))) It's very inconvenient to click through every time =))
But actually, it's not that simple... some people have asked for the opposite...
Since the first post is large in size, it consumes a lot of traffic...
Also, many people are not interested in seeing this huge post at the beginning every time... if they need to see it, it's not difficult to go to the first page...

Sincerely.

Кто состоянием своим доволен, тому жить весело. (с)Алекса́ндр Васи́льевич Суво́ров
In reply to Kyle
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19 years ago
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Kyle;98030
Actually, it's not that simple... there are people who asked for it to stay...
Since the first post is large in size, it consumes a lot of traffic...
Also, many people are not interested in seeing this huge post every time at the beginning... if they need to see it, it's not difficult to go to the first page...

Best regards.
Sorry for the off-topic.
Damn... but I find it inconvenient to have to go through NNNN pages every time to get to the beginning to look at something.
играю на уровне AI !!:smile32: ;)
In reply to RAPER
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19 years ago
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RAPER;98037
Sorry for the off-topic =)
Damn... but I find it inconvenient to have to go through NNNN pages every time to get to the beginning to look at something.
Instead of paging through, just jump directly to the first page if you need to... It's much easier that way...:D
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In reply to AmberSoler
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;98042
Instead of browsing page by page, just jump to the first page if you need to... It's much easier...:D
But I do that already, and if I need to quote several posts from the first page... then I need either 2 windows, or I have to go back and forth several times =))) IMHO - IT'S NOT CONVENIENT =))
играю на уровне AI !!:smile32: ;)
In reply to AmberSoler
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;97974
And you're saying that if you attack a neutral stack and run away, it will disappear? No, it won't. We're talking exclusively about neutral armies that stand on the map and guard artifacts, objects,
I just wanted to say that this rule should be described in more detail - that's all.
AmberSoler;97974

passages between obstacles... Or they just stand there... It has absolutely nothing to do with guarding various structures (resource piles, dwarf mines, etc.). So everything is fine. If you don't have the time or desire to figure this out yourself, don't project that onto others.
Add it to the rules :)

Added 2 minutes later
Ley;97978
It's interesting why I want to support you, Iron, but unfortunately, I can't. AmberSoler is right!
P.S. and also: :smile19: Removed :smile19:!
I didn't say he was wrong - I said that if he is right and wrote everything correctly in the description, then the rule prohibiting weakening neutrals should be described in detail so that there are no misinterpretations and different readings of this rule.
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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I think we should dedicate a separate topic to the tournament rules – organize everything there, formulate the rules, answer questions from everyone who is interested, if there are any... :) And then just provide a link to this topic when organizing a new tournament... And there will be no disputes...
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In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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Svercha;97986
Damn, I didn't understand anything about the weakening.
And you're not the only one, because the rules have only one line on this point, which is incomprehensible. :)
Svercha;97986

As Iron said, I'm probably one of the dumb ones.
I didn't say that about you, or anyone else, only about myself :D
Svercha;97986

Explain it simply and clearly, step by step....
And that's true - that's what I said. I'll just add that the rule should be explained in more detail, and the RULES should be designed not ONLY for those who have read Physics from cover to cover. In the end, the rules do not require participants in the tournament to read the entire Physics textbook. Therefore, a player who has not read it MAY participate in the tournament AND AT THE SAME TIME, ALL POINTS of prohibited actions MUST be clear to him, and there should be no ambiguity or misinterpretations. :p
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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Ataman;98185
I agree. There will only be questions once the tournament starts:)
Of course, the tournament rules are up to the organizers. But ideally, the rules should be uniform across the portal, adopted and approved by a sort of "coordinating council," and all newly created tournaments should adhere to them by default, unless otherwise specified. Read their explanation once, ask a question if something is unclear (not that many questions are asked, by the way), get a comprehensive answer, and don't return to this topic again... It's not difficult for any player and much easier than creating chaos in every tournament thread... I'll get to it when I have time...
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In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;98013
That's right. It's practically impossible to trigger this bug by accident... :) How often do your heroes flee from neutral creatures occupying key positions on the map, and then those neutral creatures are defeated? If you need to flee, then flee to your heart's content – the most important thing is to be able to explain that the goal was to flee and then regroup in another town, and not to weaken the neutral creature in a cheating way... I hope that's not too difficult.
In other words, in exceptional cases, it is possible to weaken mixed troops, for example, if you need to flee and can prove the purpose of fleeing? Is that correct???

Added 9 minutes later
Ataman;98185
Have you looked at the first post recently? There were already several lines there. I also added some explanations.
Now it's much better and clearer, and these explanations don't take up much space.
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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IronAxe;98193
In other words, in exceptional cases, it is possible to weaken mixed troops—for example, if you need to flee? Is that it???
Well, judge for yourself... If there's no goal of weakening the neutrals so that you can take them down later, then feel free to flee and let those neutrals just stand there until the end of the game... What's the problem? You shouldn't think in templates; this is a pseudo-bug and there's simply a gentleman's agreement not to be sneaky with its application. And anyway, its conscious use is an extremely rare case. I'm sure you won't even find a map where it would be applicable. Normal mapmakers don't set guards consisting of non-upgraded units... :) You're really clinging to this, aren't you... :)

Nothing terrible will happen to the game or the opponent—just like the case with using the Admiral's Hat during the fourth stage of a blitz. I had to use it not for the purpose of boosting move points, but in order to flee back to my Castle... That's all. The main thing is to justify it.
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In reply to AmberSoler
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;98196
Just think about it... If there's no intention to weaken the neutrals so you can defeat them later, then feel free to run away, and let those neutrals stand there until the end of the game... What's the problem? You don't need to think in a шаблонный way; it's just a pseudo-bug, and there's a gentleman's agreement not to abuse it.
Nothing bad will happen to the game or the opponent – just like in the case of using the Admiral's Hat on the fourth stage of a blitz game. I had to use it not to gain extra movement points, but to escape to my castle... That's all. The main thing is to justify it.
I understand all of this. But if circumstances force me to first escape from this mixed army and I can explain why, and then I just need to break through and finish off these neutrals, and there will be a justification for everything – does that mean I can, or am I understanding correctly?
In reply to IronAxe
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19 years ago
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IronAxe;98197
I understand all of that. But if circumstances force you to first flee from this mixed army and you can explain why, and then you just need to defeat these neutral creatures and provide justification for everything – then it means it’s allowed, right? Is that how I understand it?
Well, I definitely wouldn’t nitpick such a decision... Why does a person need a head? Act intelligently and there won’t be any problems... The only nuance is if there were no other neutral creatures within reach... :)
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In reply to AmberSoler
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19 years ago
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AmberSoler;98198
Well, I definitely wouldn't criticize such a decision... What's the point of having a head if you don't use it wisely? Act intelligently, and there won't be any problems... The only nuance is if there weren't any other neutral creatures within reach... :)
Well, see, there are so many nuances. No matter how insignificant they may seem, they exist. Or maybe Ataman doesn't share this point of view, and in his tournament, THESE NUANCES are prohibited?? Or are they simply NOT YET REFLECTED in this particular rule??

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