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Posts from your questions regarding the game rules (improving the interpretation).

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Offline Dark
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#61
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Juristis
From my point of view, this is a violation. Here are excerpts from the rules.
First, the rules governing transitions between zones:

- a) From the rules applicable to all templates:
"2.6. Transitions between zones.
By "a defined passage between zones" on the generated game map, we mean the space between obstacles forming the boundaries of the zones, through which a hero can pass into an adjacent zone. In a real game situation, there may be several such passages, even if the template diagram indicates that there is only one passage.
On all templates, except for XL+U size templates:
2.6.1. To pass from one zone to another through a defined passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of that passage. If there are several guards on the passage, it is sufficient to destroy any one of them."
- b) From the rules specifically for Jebus Cross: "Additional rules for transitions between zones:
- In order to exit your zone into the central treasure (zone 5), and also to pass from the central treasure into other zones, it is necessary to break through the corresponding Gate of Order (GO). Using bugged passages between the central treasure and a specific zone is prohibited until the GO between these zones is broken."

From the above, it follows that we are not allowed to move through the sand until the GO is broken, and it doesn't matter what we plan to do. But... there are a couple more rules that, I believe, the judges and Dark himself followed when performing this action.
- a) From the general rules for transitions between zones:
"2.6.2. If the guard of the passage between zones is moved deeper into the adjacent zone, then it is allowed to enter this zone to eliminate it. If there are several guards of the passage, it is allowed to enter the adjacent zone to eliminate any guard chosen by the player. Eliminating the guard in these cases must be the first action in the new zone."
- b) from the additional rules for transitions between zones on Jebus Cross:
"- Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Fly and Teleport spells is allowed:
...c) in cases of several GOs of one passage - to approach the GO chosen by the player, while the first action in the new zone must be to eliminate this GO."

But... these rules imply that the number of GOs on a specific passage is more than 1. In our case, as I understand it, the monarchs are the only GO of this passage. Accordingly, these rules cannot be applied in this situation, and we return to the standard rules, which, as I recall, do not allow us to enter the sand until the GO is broken. From this it follows that Dark did violate the rules by flying over the sand and attacking the monarchs, and the judges were wrong in their interpretation.
The word "to walk" comes from the word "walking," I think! If I didn't step on the sand even once, then, judging by the links to the rules that you provided, I didn't violate them, right? And yes, the only advantage that I could theoretically gain by flying - I emphasize over the ZONE - is scouting 5 cells, but unfortunately, I immediately ran through these 5 cells, using my turn. And in general, if we are discussing flying in this case, the question arises: if I have, say, wings and I click while in my zone on the map on any GO of my zone, I fly the shortest way to it, and you say that this is not correct and that I should actually not use them and go around, throw away the wings?! Doesn't that seem like complete nonsense to you? Especially since we're talking about 5-6 cells, I personally saw how a jurist broke through shifted GOs on Jebus, entering the sand zone, ignoring the first GO and killing the second or third GO in order! I don't understand what we're talking about?! There were no actions before breaking through the GO, including moving in the zone and taking objects.

лето 2012.
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Offline Sanin
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#62
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Joker2k

- Allow digging for the Grail on all templates without GO; possibly with a ban on placing it in Conflux and/or Tower.
There is no point in allowing Grail digging only to then restrict it by town. This was discussed about a year ago; I suggested lowering the threshold to 141 (currently 221). But if digging is to be allowed from the start, there should be no town restrictions.

Regarding Jebus Cross and Fly, this question also interests me. About a month ago, there was a game where I needed to fly from one tile of my respawn to another tile of my respawn, but in doing so I would have to fly over a neighboring zone where no passage had been broken through. I did not do this, spent movement points on a detour, and as a result, on the next turn I lacked the movement points to return to town, which caused me to lose the game. I was guided by the following rule -
Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Fly and Town Portal spells is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if GO of any passage between the respective zones has been broken;
b) between two zones 1-4, if GO to the central zone 5 and to both of these zones has been broken;
c) in cases of multiple GO of one passage — to approach the GO chosen by the player, with the first action in the new zone being the elimination of that GO.

But the rules do not answer the question: is it allowed to fly over a zone where no passage has been broken, without entering it? The Homunculus situation is essentially about this, not about which tile to hit the GO from. There were several moves over sand there. The whole question is whether this was considered entry. After all, if Dark had taken a slight detour and attacked the GO without flying over the sand, no one would have had any questions for him.

A couple of weeks ago, I saw a similar situation on Lizard's stream in a game against Lawyer (I wanted to take a screenshot now, but both only have water access until July 16, so I couldn't find it). Lizard broke his GO, and the road then slightly extended into the swamp respawn, with the swamp respawn's GO standing on it. At the same time, it was possible to go to the center nearby over the sand. Lizard stated that everything was fine and flew all his heroes along the road over the swamp GO, while the road was located on the swamp respawn. So — was this entry or not?

I formalize the question for all three situations: is flying over a zone without stopping in it considered entry into the zone? It does not matter what the answer is; what matters is that it is unambiguously reflected in the rules.
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Offline Gomunguls
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#63
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scorp
possibly )), considering "through" and "in" - especially since you convinced me in ICQ that there's no difference between them for you
okay, let me propose a complete "judgement" solution, and you (without adding 3 times - one formulation and that's it, from each)
then I'll give a situation, and we'll reason together who should be awarded what :D

Added after 4 minutes

shortest and feasible in the game

If I were judging, I would award the loss.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
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Offline Juristis
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#64
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Dark
The word "to walk" comes from the word "walking," as I understand it!? If I did not step on a single sand cell, then according to those rule links you provided, I did not violate them? And yes, the only advantage I could theoretically gain by flying over — I emphasize over the ZONE — is scouting 5 cells, but alas, I then immediately ran along those same 5 cells having movement. And in general, if we are discussing flight in this case, the question arises: if I, say, have wings and, while in my zone on the map, click on any GO in my zone, fly the shortest path to it, and you say that is wrong and that I should essentially not use them and run around, throw away the wings?! that is complete nonsense, don't you think? especially since we're talking about 5-6 cells; I have personally seen Yurist hit shifted GO on Jebus by penetrating the sand zone, ignoring the first GO and killing the second or third GO in line! What are we even talking about?! There were no actions before breaking the GO, including walking in the zone and capturing objects.
The key words here are shifted and second and third. You had no shifted GO, and the GO itself was a single instance; accordingly, the rule about air control is in no way applicable to your case.

Added after 6 minutes
Sanin

A couple of weeks ago, I saw a similar situation on Lizard's stream in a game against Yurist (I wanted to take a screenshot now, but both only have water until July 16, couldn't find it). Lizard broke his GO, and then the road slightly extended into the swamp resp, while the swamp resp's GO stood on it. At the same time, it was possible to pass into the center nearby over the sand. Lizard claimed it was all fine and flew all his heroes along the road over the swamp GO, and the road was located on the swamp resp. So — was that penetration or not?

I formalize the question for all three situations: is flying over a zone without stopping in it considered penetration into the zone? It doesn't matter what the answer is; what matters is that it is unambiguously reflected in the rules.
I decided back then not to dig into the rules and not to bother Lizard over something like this. Generally speaking, this is penetration, imo.
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Весна 2014.
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#65
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In the game, Marretti and Stinger had a similar situation, where Tyoma lost the first Final Battle with zero units, but managed to escape to a neighboring respawn point and pulled off a great comeback, in my style.


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Offline Wicc
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#66
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Gomunguls
If I were judging, I would declare a loss.
It's good that you're not the judge.

Regardless of whether Dark violated the rules or not, he shouldn't be penalized, as the situation clearly falls into the category of borderline cases that are open to interpretation (the fact that this is being discussed confirms this).

Borderline situations should be interpreted in favor of the player, as they have to make decisions under a ticking clock and don't have time to delve into the nuances of the rules.

His opponent can only report the incident to those responsible for the rules, so that they can either provide clarification or amend the rules. But in any case, these amendments will not have retroactive effect.

Added 1 hour 16 minutes ago
I've studied the situation, and it's quite interesting because both sides are right in their own way.

Dark & Co. are right in that when writing the rules, the author meant exactly what they are saying – "When spawning, you can attack the guard post from any convenient angle." I initially thought the same way, so I was surprised by the claims.

But then I read the rules carefully and realized that Gomunguls & Co. are right in that the author failed to translate his idea into text.

Pay close attention, now comes the legal nitpicking...

So, from the point of view of the rules, there are 3 types of guard post passages:

1) Multiple guard posts, i.e., several guards for one passage.
2) Single guard post, moved deeper into the spawn area.
3) Single guard post, standing on the border of the spawn areas.

In the first case, the wording is "to approach the selected guard post." The trajectory of the approach is not specified, i.e., you can fly halfway across the spawn area, the main thing is not to touch anything in the process.

In the second case, the wording is "to eliminate it, you are allowed to pass into this zone," which also does not impose any restrictions on the player's movement trajectory, except for "the first action."

But in the third case, there is nothing like that, i.e., such guard posts should be attacked without stepping on empty cells (even if the route through them is shorter).

Thus, if there were an empty cell near the wyverns, Dark could fly as much as he wanted over the center, and this would not be a violation of the rules. But there is no such cell, so he should have attacked only from the rocks.

I believe this situation is a bug in the rules and suggest reformulating them so that there are no such ambiguities.

Another bug in the rules, not related to this situation, but capable of creating controversial situations in the future – "In order to pass from one zone to another through a specific passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of this passage."

An ambiguous situation – if a player breaks through one of two passages, runs around the center for a bit, and then decides to fly back to his spawn area through the rocks. The question is – at what distance from the broken passage can he do this? At any distance (including over the unbroken passage)? Up to the midpoint between the passages (how is it calculated)? What if the player is unaware of the existence of the second passage? What if he suspects its existence, but there is no formal proof?

In my opinion, the rules should be reformulated so that breaking through any guard post on any of the passages in the zone is sufficient to enter the zone by any possible route. The purpose of this restriction is that people don't run into the center on the 1st week past the moved guard post, and nothing else, so there is no need to complicate the rule unnecessarily.

Added 27 minutes ago
And one more question "to think about" (in advance) – a player flies over a guard post and steps on a cell that borders both the guard post and another guard, thinking that he is attacking the guard post, but in reality, he attacks another guard. As an option – the other guard was obscured by the graphics of the rocks (this happens).
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Offline Sanin
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#67
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Wicc

Another bug in the rules, which is not related to this situation, but can create controversial situations in the future - "In order to pass from one zone to another through a specific passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of this passage".

An ambiguous situation - if a player breaks through one of the two passages, runs around the center for a bit, and then decides to fly back to his spawn point through the rocks. The question is - at what distance from the broken passage can he do this? At any distance (including above the unbroken passage)? Up to the midpoint between the passages (how is it calculated)? What if the player is unaware of the existence of the second passage? What if he suspects its existence, but there is no formal proof?

In my opinion, the rules should be reformulated so that breaking through any GO on any of the passages into a zone is sufficient for entering the zone by any possible path. The purpose of this restriction is to make people run to the center on the 1st week, bypassing the shifted GO, and nothing more, so there is no need to complicate the rule unnecessarily.

How is air control related to the passage? This restriction applies specifically to other passages on land. The rules are clear here:
- Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Fly and Teleportation spells is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the GO of any passage between the corresponding zones is broken;
ICQ 423164784

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Offline scorp
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#68
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Sanin
How is air control tied to the pass? This restriction specifically concerns other land passes. The rules are unambiguous here:
- Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Fly and Town Portal spells is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the guard of any pass between the corresponding zones has been broken;
I also wondered about this, why like Vic and I had this nonsense stuck in our heads (looked in the rules, it wasn't there it seems, turns out it's further on):
The screenshot shows three passes from the player's starting zone to the central treasure zone:
- the northern pass is guarded by Sultan Efreet, with the guard shifted so the hero can pass without fighting,
- further south – Devils,
- even further south – Azure Dragons.
To move to the center through one of these passes, you must defeat the corresponding guard. If you also want to use another pass, you must defeat its guard as well.
You cannot travel along the road past the efreets, even if the player has destroyed the devils or dragons.

although this is without wings/fly - but the condition is that you cannot enter zone 5 through unbroken passes, so my emphasis was that Red did not fly over a pass(!) there was none there
if the generator is not perfect, there's no need to abuse its stupidity
Gomunguls
If I were judging, I would have ruled it a loss
but if your opponent (without insults) was pointed to the rules that there is no restart on sighting, and the opponent still refuses to continue playing and actually refused - what to do? :D an adequate solution was still made by me and Pit (I can already guess your decision, but unfortunately you can't judge yourself)
Wicc
Good thing you're not judging.
words of gold, Vic :D
KobRa_RR
In Maretti's game against Stinger, there was a similar situation, where Tema lost the first FB to zero, but managed to slip away to a neighboring respawn and pulled off a win beautifully, in my style)
a good example of the imperfection of rules and the stupidity of the generator
1) it was hard to answer in a way that wouldn't give hints - there was a stream and not just a game, but a final, so we chose our words carefully
2) and scouting even 1 extra tile to a neighboring respawn without breaking the guard - would decide the match immediately, Stinger's hero gets spotted and GG (in Gomunguls's example - it was already scouted - starting point 0 +1)+2) positions)

Added after 16 minutes
Sanin
Regarding Jebus Cross and fly, I'm also interested in this question.
...
I'll formalize the question for all three situations: is flying over a zone without stopping in it considered entering the zone? Regardless of the answer, what matters is that it is unambiguously reflected in the rules.
in theory - "no", but in practice it can be YES (each needs to be analyzed separately, like they probably want with "re on block")
we analyzed 2 situations and neither is described in the rules, the main deciding factor in making a decision is how much the "controversial" action of the player would change the "game balance", in the first case - nothing changes, in the second - the match ends immediately, although in fact the pass guard was broken and there would have been no violation - the opponent didn't see it, so I think asking your opponent if he broke the pass or not is "not fair" (not fair play or something), if you didn't manage to see the break - then the opponent is good and did it before the first player's scouting (skill*) something like that
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Offline Gomunguls
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#69
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Wicc
It’s good that you don’t judge.

Regardless of whether Dark violated the rules or not, he shouldn't be punished because the situation clearly falls into a borderline category and is open to interpretation (the fact that we are discussing this confirms it).

Who knows, maybe it’s a good thing I don’t judge.
But as I said before, the rules should be clear, not like they are now.
I can also say that it’s good that you don’t judge. Otherwise, you would have judged... This conclusion can be drawn from what was written-...
And ambiguous situations should be interpreted in favor of the player, since he has to make decisions under time pressure, and there is no time to delve into the nuances of interpreting the rules.
...
I think that if you doubt what you can and cannot do, then you should save at that moment and continue after clarifying, rather than having the result interpreted in favor of the player, as stated in the inaccurate rules. And since you didn’t save before such a situation and took action, you get a loss.

and if the opponent (without insults) was informed about the rules, that there is no rematch for the match, but the opponent still refuses to continue playing and eventually refused - what should be done? An adequate decision was made by me and Pete (I already know your decision, but unfortunately, you can't judge yourself).

What’s wrong with us stopping the game, figuring out the situation, and continuing where you lost and started raging?
You can’t walk along the road past efreets, even if the player destroyed devils or dragons.
We have interesting rules; you can’t walk past efreets, but you can fly over them)))

Added 25 minutes ago
I would like to hear Dirty’s comments on this post:
/topic/at/831168/
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
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Offline =Lizard=
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#70
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Regarding my game with Yurist. There was no intrusion into the swamp respawn. I moved (flew) exclusively along the road leading from my respawn to the central treasure zone, having first broken through the GO in accordance with all the rules. The fact that the GO of the swamp adjacent zone generated right on this road, and I flew over it — how is that an intrusion into the swamp respawn? Not a single step was taken off the road toward the swamp adjacent zone.

The following comparative example comes to mind: it is forbidden to visit objects without breaking through the corresponding guard. But flying over that guard and the object itself just to shorten your path — is allowed. Otherwise, the rules would contradict common sense.
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
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Offline HellLighT
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#71
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Simply remove that stupid rule about border ГО. I have played thousands of Jebus Cross games and consider this usage perfectly normal and justified. I personally would have done exactly the same (moreover, if I am not mistaken, I was the one who once told Dark that this was possible). The stories like "oh my god he scouted" are nothing compared to the headache people sign up for by restricting movement with control... You can already stand on banks of creatures and resources without clearing the guards! But here, oh dear, he scouted... omg wtf
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Offline MerlinTheMagician
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#72
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HellLighT
Just remove the stupid rule about the border GO; I've played thousands of Jebus games.
I have ten thousand of them up there on the roof, if you want to know:smile54:

I suggest removing the stupid rule that allows playing on the Jebus Cross template. Ban it officially. Send everyone who disagrees to a psychologist.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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Offline scorp
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#73
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Gomunguls
What's wrong with us pausing the game, figuring out the situation, and continuing where you lost and started raging?
No comments, just wishing you a speedy recovery :)

You probably still don't understand what happened in your case with GO, right? (The rules are written for a "normal" generator; while it's "like this," the judge's decision is within the rules - flying from your zone along the shortest path to the guard of the passage without crossing other passage guards)

P.S. The topic is starting to go in an unclear direction, and no one needs normal formulations. Maybe we should go back to discussing interpretations; here's another flaw we found.
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Offline skd
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#74
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2.6. Transitions between zones. 2.6.1. To move from one zone to another through a specific passage, you must eliminate the guards of that passage. 2.6.6. It is allowed to enter adjacent zones using the Angel Wings artifact, and the Portal and Flight spells, without destroying the guards. Map settings options, additions, and differences in game rules for popular templates. 3. Jebus cross template: To exit your zone into the central treasury (zone 5), and to move from the central treasury to other zones, you must break through the corresponding Guard Outpost (GO). - Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Flight and Portal spells is allowed: a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the GO of any passage between the corresponding zones has been broken through. The rules clearly state this, and I am puzzled that many players interpret this situation as being within the rules. Having control, before breaking through the GO on the Jebus cross, does not give the right to fly along any trajectory, even the shortest and most convenient one. How much he flew across the treasury and how many cells he scouted is irrelevant, since we do not have any penalties for violating the rules. A simple example from life: exceeding the speed limit by 5 km/h or 100 km/h is still a violation, but the penalty is different. The correct action for the judge in this case is to determine the violation, require adherence to the rules, and impose a penalty. We are currently playing with a chess timer; I suggest penalizing minor rule violations with time on the timer. I disagree with Gomungulus that a technical defeat should be awarded for such a violation.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
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Offline LuckyF
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#75
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Gomunguls
If I were judging, I would rule it a loss
Typical hair-splitting... and yes, I'll join Vic, it's a good thing you're not judging... Dark made an absolutely logical move using the Wings, and the stories about how he incidentally saw 5 treasure zone tiles is quite a stretch and a desire to nitpick in order to snatch a victory where you lost... If it comes to that, Wings themselves are wildly imbalanced on Jeb, especially if they are present at the spawn, let's just ban them:smile04:

Added after 1 minute
skd
2.6. Zone transitions.
2.6.1. To move from one zone to another through a specific passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of that passage.
2.6.6. It is allowed to penetrate into neighboring zones using Angel Wings, the spells Town Portal and Fly, without destroying the guard.

Map settings options, expansions and differences in game rules for popular templates
3. Jebus Cross template:
To exit your zone into the central treasure zone (zone 5), as well as to move from the central treasure zone into other zones, you must break the corresponding guard obstacle.
- Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the spells Fly and Town Portal is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the guard obstacle of any passage between the corresponding zones has been broken;

The rules clearly state this point, and I am puzzled that many players interpret this situation as being within the rules.
Having control, before breaking the guard obstacle on Jeb, does not give the right to fly along any trajectory, even the shortest and most convenient one.
How much he flew over the treasure zone and how many tiles he scouted is completely irrelevant, since we do not have penalties for violations specified in the rules.
A simple real-life example - exceeding the speed limit by 5 km/h or by 100 km/h is still a violation, but the penalty is different.
The correct action for a judge in this case = to identify the violation, require compliance within the rules, and impose a penalty. We are playing with a chess clock now; I suggest for minor rule violations - penalizing with the clock. I disagree with Gomunguls that a technical loss should be assigned for such a violation.

There is also the option of rewriting the specific rule, because following the current one, if there were some other guard standing next to the wyverns, then Dark could have done it anyway, and what is the fundamental difference?
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