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Posts from your questions regarding the game rules (improving the interpretation).

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Offline scorp
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#46
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Gomunguls
So here's the next situation...
So the red Conflux hero flies over the treasure zone! ( flies from one passage and kills the guard on the other) then kills the ГО from the Monarchs. In my opinion, this is a violation, because ideally, he would have had to break the ГО from his own respawn from the passage where the Monarchs are and then move into another zone, rather than doing this by running through the treasure zone...
let's read the rules:
2.6. Transitions between zones.
...
2.6.1. In order to pass from one zone to another through a specific passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of that passage. If there are several guards at the passage, it is enough to destroy any one of your choice.
Reading the rules, I just don't understand why such actions are allowed?
not "over", but "into" - as I understood from the conversation, he flew where the 2nd red hero is standing straight into the Wyvern (into the ГО), if through the treasure zone (into the opponent's respawn or some other respawn) - that's a violation
regarding the screenshot:
1) passage from red's respawn straight into the ГО (he should have done it only this way, Gomunguls' opinion)
2) where the flight into the ГО was made from - there are rocks there and no passage
3) between 1) and 2) there is no ГО besides the Wyvern, no other passage at this distance, so it's impossible to violate rule clause 2.6.1. , there are no other passages (from point 2) he can also fly to 4))
4) presumably flies around the ГО (along the way) and flies into 1) (into the Wyvern) this was supposedly considered a violation (is this even possible in a real game - such a flight)
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Offline Gomunguls
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#47
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So to make it clearer: we were playing Citadel vs. Citadel, his respawn is on top, mine is on the right. He has 2 passes! One from respawn to the Monarchs, the other from respawn along the road where it says GO. Where it says GO, he didn't break through anything and went to attack the Monarchs. Above the number 3 is a mountain separating his respawn and, accordingly, what Kostya highlighted:
c) in cases of multiple GOs of the same pass — to approach the GO chosen by the player, provided that the first action in the new zone is the elimination of that GO.
That is not correct, because the Monarchs are not one of the GOs of the same pass, but are a different GO on the second pass, as I have already said many times.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#48
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Gomunguls
That's incorrect because Monarchs are not one of the Guardian Orders of a single passage; they are a different Guardian Order in the second passage, as I've mentioned several times.
Essentially, this doesn't change the core issue. The player, while standing on their base, uses flight and initiates an attack on the Guardian Order. In other words, their first action is to attack the Guardian Order (they cannot cancel this option and stop halfway). It's not the player's fault that they had to fly through the terrain. They could have flown from point 1 (Scorpio's diagram) and ended up behind the Monarchs (with an attack initiated, of course). The principle remains the same.
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Offline scorp
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#49
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Gomunguls
...
That's incorrect because monarchs are not one of the GOs of a single passage, but are another GO on the second passage, which I have mentioned several times.
Which passage did the red hero cross? He crossed the cliffs, not a passage - I assume he took the shortest route to break through the passage, and on this shortest route, there were no other passages.
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Offline skd
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#50
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scorp
Which passage did the red hero fly through? He flew over the rocks, not through a passage – I assume he took the shortest route to break through the passage, and there were no other passages on that shortest route.
He should have flown to his starting town, to the point you marked as number 1, cleared out the Guard Towers of the Monarchs, and then moved to the Treasury. But, as I understand it, he flew to the Treasury without clearing out a single Guard Tower, which violated the rules.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
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Offline Gomunguls
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#51
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Dirty_Player
Essentially, this doesn't change anything. The player stands on their own base, uses flight, and clicks to attack the Guardian, meaning their first action is to attack the Guardian (they cannot cancel this option and stop halfway). It's not the player's fault that they had to fly through the treasure. They could have flown from point 1 (Scorpio's drawing) and flown behind the Monarchs (with an attack, of course). The point is the same.

In this case, the first action is not attacking the Guardian, but visiting the treasure. Whether it's by flight or on foot is no longer important.

The player stands on their own base, uses flight, and clicks to attack the Guardian, meaning their first action is to attack the Guardian (they cannot cancel this option and stop halfway)...- So, if the option cannot be canceled, does this not affect the rules?

It's not the player's fault that they had to fly through the treasure...- well, that's not an explanation at all, just like (they cannot cancel this option and stop halfway).

They could have flown from point 1 (Scorpio's drawing) and flown behind the Monarchs (with an attack, of course). The point is the same...- the point is not the same; here, it's about scouting and reducing movement point costs.

If they had flown through their own mountain and attacked from the side of the Monarchs, there would be no questions.
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q
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Offline skd
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#52
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He moved 3 squares along the path without breaking line of sight – this is a clear violation of the rules, and I completely agree.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#53
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Gomunguls


It's not the player's fault that they had to fly through the terrain... - well, that's not really an explanation. It's the same as (he can't cancel this option and stop halfway).

He could have flown from point 1 (Scorpio's drawing) and ended up behind the monarchs (with an attack, of course). The point is the same... - the point is not the same; here, it's about scouting and reducing movement point costs.

If he had flown through his own mountain and attacked from the side of the monarchs, there would have been no questions.

But here, I agree. An unfair advantage was gained in scouting and movement. If this is allowed, the next player will cut through half the terrain under the pretext of killing a GO. There were no two GOs here, so there was no need for such a move.


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Offline Juristis
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#54
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From my point of view, this is a violation. Here are excerpts from the rules:
First, the rules governing transitions between zones:

- a) From the rules common to all templates:
"2.6. Transitions between zones.
By the words "a specific passage between zones" on the generated game map, we mean the space between obstacles that form the boundaries of the zones, through which the hero can pass into the adjacent zone. In a real game situation, there may be several such passages, even if the template diagram indicates that there is only one passage.
On all templates, except for XL+U size templates:
2.6.1. To pass from one zone to another through a specific passage, it is necessary to eliminate the guard of this passage. If there are several guards on the passage, it is enough to destroy any one of them."
- b) From the rules specifically for Jebus Cross: "Additional rules for transitions between zones:
- In order to exit your zone into the central treasury (zone 5), as well as to pass from the central treasury to other zones, it is necessary to break through the corresponding Gate of the Order (GO). Using buggy passages between the central treasury and a specific zone is prohibited until the GO between these zones is broken through."

From the above, it follows that we do not have the right to pass through the sand until the GO is broken through, and it is completely irrelevant what we plan to do. But... there are a couple more rules that, I believe, the judges and Dark himself were guided by when performing this action.
- a) From the general rules for transitions between zones:
"2.6.2. If the guard of the passage between zones is moved deeper into the adjacent zone, then it is allowed to pass into this zone to eliminate it. If there are several guards of the passage, it is allowed to pass into the adjacent zone to eliminate any guard at the player's choice. The elimination of the guard in these cases must be the first action in the new zone."
- b) from the additional rules for transitions between zones on Jebus Cross:
"- Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Fly and Teleportation spells is allowed:
...c) in cases of several GOs of one passage - to approach the GO chosen by the player, while the first action in the new zone must be the elimination of this GO."

But... these rules imply that the number of GOs on a specific passage is more than 1. In our case, as I understand it, the monarchs are the only GO of this passage. Accordingly, these rules cannot be applied in this situation, and we return to the standard rules, according to which, as a reminder, we do not have the right to enter the sand until we break through the GO. From this it follows that Dark did violate the rules by flying over the sand and attacking the monarchs, and the judges made a mistake in their interpretation.
heroes3.tv/juristis
ICQ - 488-784-621, skype - juristis18

Весна 2014.
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Offline scorp
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#55
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skd
he was supposed to fly along his respawn to the point you marked as number 1, from there break through the GO-monarchs and exit into the treasure zone.
But as I understand it, he flew through the treasure zone without breaking through a single GO, thus violating the rules.
I suggest Redwight to sort it out :)

2.6.6. It is allowed to enter adjacent zones using the Wings of Angel, the spells Town Portal and Fly, without destroying the guard. on Jebus Cross you must fight through, hence the general rules do not apply and we turn to the rules for passes specifically for Jebus Cross + wings/fly:
- Transition between zones using the Wings of Angel artifact and the spells Fly and Town Portal is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and central zone 5, if the GO of any passage between the corresponding zones has been broken through;
screenshot:
point 0 is the starting point for any further actions whether to the right (if the treasure zone continued there) or downwards - is the scouting advantage present here?!, if the starting point (0) is the same for further movement in any directions - /no/
point 0, where the hero stands, is the first safe place where one can land and then attack the vivi without error, no extra steps taken by the hero along the shortest path from that point where the hero stands (on his respawn) to the passage guard (vivi)
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Offline Gomunguls
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#56
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scorp
I suggest Redwight to sort it out :)

2.6.6. It is allowed to enter neighboring zones using Angel Wings, the Town Portal and Fly spells without defeating the guards. on Jebus Cross you must definitely fight, hence the general rules don't apply and we go to the rules for passages specifically for Jebus Cross + wings/fly:
- Transition between zones using the Angel Wings artifact and the Fly and Town Portal spells is allowed:
a) between any of zones 1-4 and the central zone 5, if the GO of any passage between the respective zones has been broken;
screenshot:
point 0 is the starting point for any further actions whether to the right (if the treasure zone continued there) or downwards — is there a scouting advantage here?!, if the starting point(0) is the same for further movements in any direction - /no/
point 0, where the hero stands, is the first safe place where you can land and then attack the Vivi without error, no extra steps taken by the hero along the shortest path from the point where the hero stands(at his own respawn) to the passage guard (Vivi)

Your thinking is strange, but okay, questions based on your logic then:
1) If a similar situation, but the Vivis are also positioned in the neighboring passage and it takes not 300-500 MP but 2000 to reach them, and for example Gunnar flies from the central road across the entire treasure zone on wings and breaks them, while having a couple of scouting telescopes or the scouting skill. The situation is the same, but more MP is needed.
2) Is it allowed to fly into the treasure zone without breaking the GO, but without doing anything there? Not killing anyone, just running through?
Удача любит подготовленных!!!





Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q
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Offline skd
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#57
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Basically, until the Grand Order (GO) is breached, it is forbidden for him to move around the treasure area in any way. Since the Monarchs are the only GO in the passage, he is even forbidden to fly over them and breach them from the sand.
Mountains are not part of the treasure area, so his shortest path was through the mountains, as I show in the screenshot.
According to the current rules, the interpretation of permissible actions should be exactly like this. The lawyer explained everything correctly.
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UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
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Offline scorp
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#58
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Gomunguls
You think strangely...
maybe )), considering "through" and "in" - especially since you convinced me in ICQ that there is no difference between them for you
okay, let me propose a complete "judgement" solution and you (without writing 3 times - one formulation and that's it, from each)
then I'll give a situation and we'll reason again who gets what :D

Added 4 minutes later
skd
In fact, before breaking the GO (Guard Outpost), he is prohibited from running around the treasure in any way. Since Monarchs are the only GO in the passage, he is prohibited from even flying over the Monarchs and breaking them from the sand.
The mountains are not the treasure - therefore, his shortest path was through the mountains - as I show in the screenshot.
According to the current rules, the interpretation of permissible actions should be exactly like this. The lawyer explained everything correctly.
shortest and feasible in the game
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Offline Juristis
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#59
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Scorp, are you trolling?
heroes3.tv/juristis
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Весна 2014.
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Offline scorp
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#60
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Juristis
Scorp, are you trolling?
What are you talking about? (a bit of sarcasm)
Suggest a judge's decision – I've already decided what verdict I would give (even without rule 2.6.2. If the guard blocking the passage between zones is moved deeper into the adjacent zone, it is allowed to enter that zone to eliminate it. If there are several guards blocking the passage, it is allowed to enter the adjacent zone to eliminate any guard of the player's choice. Eliminating the guard in these cases must be the first action in the new zone.)
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