Terra dei Demoni — Tournament History online

Yvain

12/9/2013 9:55 AM UTC

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I want to know if the absence of a required element is a valid reason for a restart: there is no secondary town for Blue. When playing as Dungeon, there is no passage through the Inferno zone to the neutral castle belonging to Dungeon. It seems there is a passage through the Guardian Order, but this significantly affects the game. Especially when playing as Shakti, because the additional troglodytes, as well as the summoning portal, and generally having the native secondary town, are very important on this map.
So, the question is: is it permissible to request a restart if it turns out that the native secondary town is missing, even though it should be present according to the map layout?

In reply to Yvain

Wicc

12/9/2013 10:22 AM UTC

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Yvain

I want to know whether the fact that the template is not followed is grounds for a restart: blue has no secondary hero. When playing as Dungeon, there is no passage through the Inferno zone to the neutral Castle of the Dungeon. Apparently there is one through the ГО, but this greatly affects the course of the game. Especially when playing as Shakti, because the additional Troglodytes, and the portal of summoning, and the native secondary hero in general are very decisive on this template.
So the question is - can I take a restart if it turns out that the native secondary hero is missing, even though it should exist according to the template?

Yes, you can take an objective restart. I will now add an amendment to the rules.

Generally speaking, this falls under the rule point "if there is a road to the enemy's territory bypassing the ГО". Most likely the road from your secondary hero leads to the opponent's respawn through a bugged passage, but to avoid confusion and to account for cases of a road from the secondary hero to the ГО, I will clarify this in the rules.

Yvain

12/9/2013 11:45 AM UTC

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There are no paths to the opponent's territory that bypass the Guardian of Order; there is simply no exit from the Inferno zone to the secondary resource. I'm waiting for an update to the rules.

Added 18 minutes later
09.12.13 Yvain (Blue, Dungeon, Shakti, Shakti) def ColdRain (Red, Rampart, Ivor, Ivor) 122 TDD

A respawn point appeared without a secondary resource; the opponent claimed that a restart was not possible for this reason. He said that he didn't want to waste time replaying, so if a restart were to occur due to the absence of a secondary resource, he would concede. The restart was acknowledged. He surrendered; respect – he keeps his word.

Wicc

12/9/2013 12:12 PM UTC

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Hmm... well, if it's that drastic... the rule for this situation actually emerged during gameplay, so it shouldn't determine the outcome of the game.

How did you even get to turn 122 without noticing the missing road? It's clearly visible by turns 112-113.

I strongly recommend replaying the game; I can extend the deadline (if ColdRain is short on time). The castles remain the same, and the number of restarts is the same as it was at the start of this generation.

In reply to Yvain

ColdRain

12/9/2013 12:23 PM UTC

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Yvain

There is no road to the enemy's territory bypassing the ГО, there is simply no exit to the secondary from the Inferno zone. I'm waiting for a rule amendment :)

Added 18 minutes later
09.12.13 Yvain (Blue, Dungeon, Shakti, Shakti) def ColdRain (Red, Rampart, Ivor, Ivor) 122 TDD

A respawn without a secondary dropped, the opponent claimed that a restart could not be done for this reason. And said that he doesn't want to waste time on a replay, so if a restart does happen due to the absence of a secondary, he will admit defeat. The restart was acknowledged. He surrendered, respect - he keeps his word.

This is a stupid rule about the absence of a secondary. Like on Mine-Nost, the lack of a passage to one of the computers is not grounds for an objective restart, on SMK the absence of one of the treasuries is also not grounds, but here it is. :) Moreover, a new ground for a restart was immediately added to the rules upon first request :). Double standards rule.
As for the game, on the first day Ivor experted Earth, home has Minotaur Guards in the Castle, in the double he has Archers and Wood Elves in the Citadel, Pits in the Citadel in Inferno, Wyverns in the swamp secondary, in the Barbarian and somewhere else there is a Town Hall, a Gold Mine, on day 121 the first 14 Demons were cut, ГО through Castle Horses' Teleport 50-99, income 4.6k, a bunch of uncollected money, the prospects were very good if not for the newly-minted rule. Thanks for the time.

http://ru.twitch.tv/alexkuznec

In reply to ColdRain

Wicc

12/9/2013 12:30 PM UTC

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ColdRain

That's a silly rule because of the lack of secondary resources, just like on Mine-Nost, the absence of a path to one of the resource nodes isn't grounds for an objective restart. On Small Map, the absence of one of the treasure nodes also isn't grounds, but here it is. :) Moreover, a new reason for a restart was immediately added to the rules upon the first request. Double standards rule.

Since this is the first tournament on this map template, the rules are being formed in the process. Several changes have already been made, both to the template and to the rules, and as new nuances are discovered, new changes may be made.

On Mini-Nost, the absence of one of the resource nodes isn't as decisive because there's a lot of territory, and clearing it all takes a very long time; the game usually ends sooner. But here, there's little territory, and your own half of the map can be cleared in a week or two, and secondary resources are the main source of profit. Especially native secondary resources, which are taken into account when planning the strategy.

KobRa_RR

12/9/2013 12:34 PM UTC

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I am informing the Tournament Organizer once again that my opponent in the second round, CrazyDuck, has not responded either on ICQ or on the forum since November 29, 2013. Therefore, I am ceasing my attempts to contact him.

In reply to Wicc

ColdRain

12/9/2013 12:55 PM UTC

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Wicc

I strongly recommend replaying the game.

Thanks, I don't want to waste any more time searching for new bugs and grounds for contesting the rules.

Wicc

The absence of one of the computers on Mini-Nost doesn't have such a significant impact.

The absence of a path to one of the 3 computers on Mini-Nost, and therefore the lack of resources, can definitely affect the outcome, and I had the opportunity to see this.

http://ru.twitch.tv/alexkuznec

Yvain

12/9/2013 1:52 PM UTC

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Here’s another suggestion for a minor rule adjustment. Chess timer 16-6-1: of course, 1 minute for battles is too short. An average battle always lasts longer than 1 minute. I’m not talking about level 1 units, but even with level 2 units, you rarely have enough time in 1 minute, and there are dwarves and golems that take a long time to defeat. Besides, I’ve always thought that Heroes is more like chess than Counter-Strike. The point is to think everything through correctly, not to show off mouse control skills. I suggest increasing the battle time to 5 minutes. Even if there are a lot of opponents, 5 minutes, I think many will agree to increase it by 1 minute.

The_

12/9/2013 2:25 PM UTC

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I suggest increasing the battle time to 5 minutes.

Only to 5 minutes? Isn't that too short?

241-568-808

In reply to The_

Dark

12/9/2013 3:04 PM UTC

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The_

only up to 5 minutes? Isn't that too little?

I think 5 is too short, let's make it 10, just to be sure:smile21: :smile21: :smile21:

лето 2012.

Maretti

12/9/2013 3:12 PM UTC

The point is, there is to little time. Something should be increased, whether its battle time or time pr. day.

In reply to Yvain

Wicc

12/9/2013 3:28 PM UTC

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Yvain

Here’s another suggestion for a minor rules correction. Chess timer 16-6-1: of course, 1 minute for battles is too little. An average battle takes more than 1 minute anyway. I’m not talking about level 1 units, but even with level 2 units, you rarely have enough time in 1 minute, and there are dwarves and golems that take a long time to defeat. Besides, I’ve always thought that Heroes is more like chess than Counter-Strike. The point is to think everything through correctly, not to show off your mouse control skills. I suggest increasing the battle time to 5 minutes. Even if there are a lot of opponents, 5 minutes, I think many will agree to increase it by 1 minute.

I’ve written many times in different topics that I am against long time controls for many reasons.

And I am even more against increasing the time for battles – it’s better to increase the total time for a turn; actions on the map are, in my opinion, no less important than battles. For example, calculating a sequence of actions can take a very long time, especially on this map, where you need to clear your territory as quickly as possible, i.e., move troops back and forth, fight with many heroes, etc.

Therefore, I believe that 1 minute per battle is a normal option, as it allows you to compensate for the time spent on mandatory clicks in simple battles, and players should allocate time from the total time bank for complex battles.

And I’m not insisting on strict adherence to the timer; if both players want, they can set a different timer.

Alexey-omsk

12/10/2013 7:52 PM UTC

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11.12.13 Alexey-omsk (red, Inferno, Pyre, Goshan) def The_ (blue, Fortress, Vistan, Tazar) 114 TDD

The opponent created two excellent setups, I created 111, and then Goshan arrives with three stacks, along with Ciel and Gunar simultaneously! I'm leveling up my Necromancer on chests, running around the elevation tiles, getting Earth, and by turn 114, Goshan has 6, 4, 4, 3 stats. By turn 114, I've captured two secondary resources, I'm planning to not attack and take three crypts, as I have very little money. But due to inconsistencies in the rules, the opponent wants to take a technical win, but I really don't want to with this setup. In the end, it turned out that a technical win wasn't possible, but the opponent still refused to continue...
Thank you for your time.

The_

12/10/2013 8:04 PM UTC

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I want to know if the reason for a restart is that the template is not being followed: there is no secondary town for blue. When playing as Dungeon, there is no passage through the Inferno zone to the neutral castle of the Dungeon. Apparently, there is one through the Guardian Order.

Yes, an objective restart is possible. I will now make a correction to the rules.

I also had a secondary town, apparently through the Guardian Order, but as it turned out, it wasn't the right one.
I sent the opponent the password so he could verify, and just in case, I also wrote to Vik, at the opponent's request. Vik said that it wasn't the right game. Naturally, I refused to continue after that, so as not to turn the absurdity into a full-fledged farce. About the game: excellent setup, start with Wistan with three stacks in the Tazar tavern, an unbelievable amount of money, three stacks of Goblins and Snakes at home, and a Cons 2-4. Seeing such a Guardian Order generation for the secondary town, I decided that this was the right game, because I had literally read a conversation between Vik and Yuvein on the forum just a few days ago. It turned out that I needed to read between the lines, after first soaking it in food acid and ironing it.

- Look, this is a ball - it's round, and this hoop is also round.
- I understand, I understand, here's a ball - it's also round!
- No.