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Posts from Orcs – discussion about the race.

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18 years ago
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I've played as the Stronghold faction many times, and it's a faction that can defeat almost anyone; especially humans.
:smile02:Клан "Lost Heroes" - Заместитель лидера:smile02:
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18 years ago
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This faction has many advantages: They have a level 7 Cyclops, and it's very strong, and one disadvantage: Centaurs have low health!
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18 years ago
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Maps with random castles and random dwellings are not suitable for competitive play. If you compare them, it should only be to see which one is better in terms of its own characteristics.
Well, that's quite a statement. Races should be compared on standard maps (with random enemies) and in the Global Scoreboard (GSC), specifying a template. The results should be averaged. But you are essentially suggesting comparing growth rates, which is not what the balancing was designed for. That's why the Necromancer's racial ability was changed, so they wouldn't be so strong at the start, while the Converter was left as is, because it has been a tradition since the 2nd part that Necromancers are the strongest in a truly long game (which, however, is rarely played), although now not as much as in all previous parts and early versions of the 5th game. Remember the 3rd game, where even with the Necromancer completely removed by a patch, the undead remained one of the strongest, perhaps the strongest, on XL and L maps, although their growth rate was not that great. In general, the strongest improved growth rate in itself is with the Stronghold (and what does it help them with?), but when taking into account the hero, it's the Orc and so on.
In such conditions, in a long game with several castles and dwellings, the Necromancer has almost no chance due to the stupid implementation of the racial ability.
I wouldn't play any race for 3 months on a dueling map without neutral castles and with only 3 native ones... What would you do on it? Save up resources for the final battle with a result that is already almost known? Precisely known, if you know the opponent's race and, very rarely, some nuances with artifacts and magic.
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18 years ago
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Hmm...
There are different types of templates, and map sizes vary.
Often, there are templates for large maps where a game can last for two months.
And often, people play templates with just one castle.
On custom maps, they almost always create either one native castle or several castles of the same faction.

As for recruiting neutral creatures, it is usually prohibited.
So, the converter is not usually used in practice.

In a long game, Necropolis is not the strongest... I don't know why people think they are the strongest...
Especially with several native castles, Necropolis is completely out of the game...
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18 years ago
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Hmm...
There are different map templates and different map sizes.
Often, there are templates for large maps where the game can last for two months.
And often, people play templates with only one Castle.
On custom maps, they almost always create either one native Castle or several Castles of the same faction.

As for joining neutral creatures, it is usually completely forbidden.
So, the converter is not usually used in practice.
I don't remember all the standard maps very well, but I only remember three with two native Castles, and I can't think of any maps with three or more. But on standard maps, a long game doesn't really fit; often, there are no more than 5 level 7 creatures. On the Grand Strategy Kompilation (GSK), if we're talking about a long game, you can easily add several more AI opponents, and there you have enemy secondary Castles, which are almost like your own for the Necromancer. Moreover, there will simply be random Castles on the map. You might end up with 2-3 enemy Castles (and that's where the converter will be useful, along with dwellings), and having another one of your own is already luck. And you need to play templates where you can move around, maneuver, and look for the buildings you're interested in, as it was in the third game, which, after all these years, only has a few more or less balanced templates. But you're suggesting playing maps with 3 native Castles and a bunch of secondary Castles – what's the point? Two roughly equal players choose a race (for example, they play as the Dark Elves), and based on the draw, there's a 90% chance that the winner is immediately determined? We don't need such Heroes.
In a long game, the Necromancer is not the strongest... I don't know where you got the idea that they are the strongest...
Especially with several native Castles, the Necromancer is completely out of the game.
On normally playable 3-month maps, the Necromancer does look stronger, but they are quite vulnerable, especially if you manage to quickly develop a "runner," not necessarily even a specialist. For example, it's very easy to do with the Orcs, because the chances of Logistics, Machinery, and Attack are high. There really is intrigue when playing with different races and a certain balance, which the third game couldn't even boast in theory. But three Castles and a bunch of dwellings... I'd rather play tic-tac-toe. The variability of outcomes is the same, and there's less stress.
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18 years ago
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yeah, I get it.
You can create a map where any desired faction dominates and is the only one present.
I'm not suggesting playing maps with three native castles; that's rare.
Usually, maps are played with only one starting castle of your own faction, and that's it...
And without computer opponents, if it's a competition...
In reply to Psionic
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18 years ago
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Here, Major Whirlwind asked me to post my plan for building a city from scratch. Well, here it is. I try to do everything in this order: 1. Goblin huts 2. Tavern 3. Town hall 4. Centaur outpost 5. Fortress 6. Warrior yurts 7. Stronghold/market/smithy/garbage heap 8. Stronghold/market/smithy 9. Magistrate/spirit refuge 10. Magistrate/spirit refuge/traveler's hut 11. Magistrate/spirit refuge/traveler's hut :D 12. Sanctuary of Wrath 13. Wyvern lair Then the castle system, capitol, and other things, upgrades, and mage guilds :)

Added 2 minutes later
P.S. He was just surprised that I have Assassins by week 2, even though I only take experience from chests, there are no gold mines nearby, and the difficulty is Veteran. Well, actually, I don't always have enough resources... I usually get Assassins and Wyverns by week 2-3.
In reply to Imaris
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18 years ago
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Sorry, but the build order plan, in my opinion, is fundamentally wrong. Let's consider a build order starting with a town at level 1 for the first week. 1. Why do you need extra Goblins if Centaurs are the main force in exploration? Or are you only playing as Haggeesh? Take Krag, for example, as a starting hero. How much will you explore with his initial Centaurs? First, build a Tavern. The entire army merges with the main hero, and he can easily and without difficulty explore the Lumber Mill and Mine. 2. Since we are building the Tavern on the first day, you can build Huts here, but building a Blacksmith and buying a Ballista and Tent will be more beneficial. It's not difficult to get siege equipment, and the Tent is a higher priority than the Ballista. Centaurs already deal good damage to enemies, and First Aid will reduce or even eliminate losses. 3. What Town Hall are you talking about? Every day counts. If you fall behind in development and resource acquisition, you'll lose the game against the Dark and Necropolis factions, which are your speed-leveling competitors. The Centaur Stable is our priority. 14 additional archers are a significant boost. 4. As for this, it depends on the player, but I upgrade the Centaur Stable and upgrade them to Nomads. Damage is significantly increased, and health is 1.5 times greater, resulting in fewer losses. Are you familiar with the "chain transfer" technique? It allows you not to return to the town with the main hero but to stay and clear the territory. 5. When playing on lower difficulty levels, you can build a Fort and Stronghold in the first week. However, on Hero difficulty, there simply isn't enough money, so a Fort isn't needed. I build a Market and sell the artifacts found there, again, using the chain transfer method, so as not to distract the main hero from his main task – clearing the map. Many artifacts, such as the Trident, Boots, etc., are simply not needed by the Orcs, but they are worth a good amount of money. 6. Goblin Huts. No comment. 7. Warrior Yurts. Again, no comment. As a result, with my build order, my hero leaves with a larger army earlier, explores faster, and support heroes start picking up valuable items sooner because the Tavern is built earlier. Centaurs are also built earlier. This gives me an advantage in development speed. Furthermore, my Centaurs are tougher and deal more damage, and I already have a Tent and money from selling artifacts. In your version, you have either a Blacksmith or a Market. I repeat, on Hero difficulty, it is almost impossible to build a Stronghold without using money from chests. I repeat, this is purely my personal opinion, which can certainly be disputed.
Я видел, как Небо окутала Тьма, и Небо смирилось с Судьбой,
Горящие реки сходили с ума, пытаясь остаться водой,
Земля пропустила коварный удар, раскрывшись на шаге вперёд,
Взлетел разъярённым драконом Огонь и понял, что тоже умрёт...
In reply to Mdance
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18 years ago
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Mdance;162893
I disagree, but your build order is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion. Let's consider a build order starting from city level 1 for the first week.
1. Why do you need extra Goblins if Centaurs are the main force in clearing the map? Or are you only playing as Haggeesh? Take Krag as your starting hero, for example. How much will you clear with his starting Centaurs? First, build a Tavern. The entire army merges with the main hero, and he can easily clear the Lumber Mill and Mine without any problems.
2. Since we're building a Tavern on day 1, we can build Huts here, but building a Forge and buying a Ballista and Tent will be more beneficial. It's not difficult to get the Machinery upgrade, and the Tent is a higher priority than the Ballista. Centaurs already deal good damage, and First Aid will reduce or even eliminate losses.
3. What Town Hall are you talking about? Every day counts. If you're late in developing and capturing resources, you'll lose the game against the Dark and Necropolis factions, which are your speed-leveling competitors. The Centaur Outpost is our everything. 14 additional archers are a strong addition.
4. As for this, it depends on the player, but I upgrade the Centaur Outpost and upgrade them into Nomads. This sharply increases damage, and they have 1.5 times more health, resulting in fewer losses. Are you familiar with the "chain transfer" technique? It allows you not to return to the city with the main hero but to stay and clear the territory.
5. When playing on lower difficulty levels, you can build a Fort and Stronghold in the first week, yes. But on Hero difficulty, you simply won't have enough money, so a Fort isn't needed. I build a Market and sell the artifacts I found there, again, using the chain transfer method, so as not to distract the main hero from his main task – clearing the map. Many artifacts, such as the Trident, Boots, etc., are simply not needed by the Orcs, but they are worth a good amount of money.
6. Goblin Huts. No comment.
7. War Yurt. Again, no comment.

As a result, with my build order, my hero leaves with a larger army, clears the map faster, and support heroes start picking up what's lying around, because the Tavern is built earlier. Centaurs are also built earlier. We have an advantage in development speed. Furthermore, my Centaurs deal more damage and have more health, and I already have a Tent and money from selling artifacts. In your version, you have either a Forge or a Market. I repeat, on Hero difficulty, it's almost impossible to build a Stronghold without using money from chests.

I'll repeat again – this is purely my personal opinion, which can certainly be disputed.
I dispute your purely personal opinion.
1. Well, it depends on the player. I use Goblins as cannon fodder to preserve the Centaurs. But at the same time, I agree:o :D, you gave me a good idea.
2. The Tent is too expensive, and who said I need the Combat Machines skill? No, I usually take it, but if it doesn't appear or something else happens... And without the basic Machines skill and the Tent ability, it's not very useful. +10 HP and no resurrection... It's kind of weak, even at the beginning of the game. Well, it depends on the player's tactics.
3. The Town Hall is essential. I need money, and I can build creatures, otherwise, I won't be able to build anything. I build the Outpost later, when the main hero returns to the Castle. Of course, if you follow your tactics, there's a Tavern, and you take a Scout there, but... And again, 2500 gold for this Scout with all its perks... And if it's on Hero difficulty, it's a real problem.
4. I upgrade all creatures only after I've built all the creatures. And also the Castle and the Capitol. I can upgrade someone if it's really necessary and I have extra money.
5. You still need to find artifacts. And what if there's a shortage of them in the area? . It's not necessary for me to have a Stronghold in the first week.

Added 1 minute ago
P.S. This is also my purely personal opinion, which can also be disputed.
P.P.S. This is what I described as a build order for Veteran difficulty, as Major Whirlwind requested.
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18 years ago
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Machines drop with a 15% chance, and you're saying they might not drop at all? In my opinion, they are essential on small maps.
:smile02:Клан "Lost Heroes" - Заместитель лидера:smile02:
18 years ago
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In principle, I almost completely agree with Mdanse's plan... The only thing is, I rarely train machines with Haghesh, so there's no need for a forge. I also don't always build a market if there are no useless artifacts. In general, the point is that there are too many gold costs in the first and second weeks. According to your plan, that's 10k for the fort and Stronghold, 14700 for dwellings of levels 4-6, and then the Capitol... And the Capitol should be built on the same day it becomes available on Veteran difficulty. Plus, in the third week, it's desirable to maximize the fortifications, because the strength of the Orcs lies in their troops, and extra growth won't hurt. And... Mdanse, why nomadic Centaurs? In my opinion, combat Centaurs are better. They are generally tougher and fight without a penalty, which, in my opinion, is more useful than maneuver. I see some benefit from maneuver on the Creeping Fortress map. But closer to the endgame, the choice is obvious in favor of combat Centaurs. (just saying :) ) Ghost, Orcs have 8% chance for machines. Crazy Wolf, don't doubt the usefulness of the second hero. There was already one skeptic who was quickly refuted by the arguments of 3 people (or so...). Even though you spend 2500 on the hero, he will more than pay for himself. This provides an additional army, reduces the number of turns the main hero needs, and accelerates expansion because the hero receives reinforcements from the city earlier and, again, spends fewer movement points, etc.
O God of Earth and Altar,
Bow down and hear our cry,
Our earthly rulers falter,
Our people drift and die,
The walls of gold entomb us,
The swords of scorn divide,
Take not thy thunder from us,
Take away our pride.


G.K. Chesterton: English Hymnal
In reply to Майор Вихрь
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18 years ago
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I already mentioned that using the Tent significantly reduces losses during creep clearing. Of course, this requires skill. And skill is gained very often. 8% is a decent chance. They are easy to catch. Just avoid taking random skills for a while. Regarding Centaurs. Yes, the Combat Centaurs are tougher and don't retreat, but the Nomadic Centaurs have higher damage. And most losses come from archers, so whether they retreat or not isn't that important. You can upgrade them to the final tier if you want. And Goblins are generally useful in the early game for distracting melee units with a few units, or blocking the approach of large units to the Centaurs. They don't represent a significant combat force in numbers up to 80-100.
Я видел, как Небо окутала Тьма, и Небо смирилось с Судьбой,
Горящие реки сходили с ума, пытаясь остаться водой,
Земля пропустила коварный удар, раскрывшись на шаге вперёд,
Взлетел разъярённым драконом Огонь и понял, что тоже умрёт...
18 years ago
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I still try to upgrade the goblins as early as possible; by the end of the second week, I usually have trappers. Traps sometimes give centaurs the opportunity to make one extra shot before the troops arrive. For example, when we attack armored units. They take a little damage from the shots, and an extra volley certainly won't hurt us. Of course, the trap doesn't always work, but 50 trappers are already capable of stopping enemies more or less frequently.

It's very frustrating that unupgraded centaurs have an initiative of 11, while the other two have 10. Especially when the map shows many archers; it even makes you think about not upgrading them. But the increased health (by 3/4) and other parameters force you to do so.
O God of Earth and Altar,
Bow down and hear our cry,
Our earthly rulers falter,
Our people drift and die,
The walls of gold entomb us,
The swords of scorn divide,
Take not thy thunder from us,
Take away our pride.


G.K. Chesterton: English Hymnal
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18 years ago
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In principle, I almost completely agree with Mdance's option... The only thing is, I rarely level up machines with Haggesh, so there's no need for a forge.
I strongly disagree. Haggesh starts with Attack and Ranged Attack, and everyone takes them willingly. If you offer machines, then getting to the Outpost is just a matter of time, because in practice, the probability of getting a skill from the 2nd circle is clearly higher than from the 1st. As soon as you get Advanced Attack, the Outpost is already within reach. If you ban playing machinists (no Tilsec), then Haggesh with crazy kents becomes an even better machinist.
Regarding upgrading kents, I agree with Mdance: for creeping, use nomadic ones; if there's an opportunity to upgrade them for the final stage, then use combat ones.
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18 years ago
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If I play as Haggeesh, I don't upgrade my companions for quite a while, because their stats increase as the hero levels up, and the stats of regular units are higher. And I almost don't have any problems with neutral creatures.
:smile02:Клан "Lost Heroes" - Заместитель лидера:smile02:

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