Balanced Units - A minimal balance mod for units — Mods: Tribes of the East

DemonSD

6 years ago

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Andrail

This probably means something.

It means they are slightly weaker and need a small buff, but definitely not this much. This breaks their concept: it turns them into much more aggressive units than mages or druids. In my opinion, if they need to be buffed, it should definitely not be this way.

I played multiplayer with the TE mod, but that was 10 years ago. Even then, it seemed to me that it was going in the wrong direction. Too far from the original.

In reply to Андраил

DirtyLiar

6 years ago

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Andrail

TE or in the same TBM, mana has been added.

And swear when you encounter a stack of these shamans guarding the resource zone.

Andrail

In RTA, it's an initiative, as there are no piercing attacks. This probably means something.

The further you go, the stranger and stranger it gets (C).
If there are no piercing attacks, why not just give them mana, since they won't be encountered as neutrals? But no, we don't look for easy ways.

P.S. Just for fun (and to make sure I'm not talking nonsense), I gave DN 16 mana.
I created a dueling Orc preset with Secrets of the Light and a couple of artifacts from Sar-Issa.
I was amazed.
3 stacks of Daughters (24 mana each - in duels, for some reason, it is believed that the base mana for DN is 12, not 16, because it should be 32) with 25 units each, and each stack deals 435 damage with a chain lightning spell, which costs 8 mana, i.e., 3 casts. 3 stacks of Warlords with 40 units boost all this happiness with magical kicks in the rear. As a bonus, there's a stack of Centaurs.
If we combine and divide into 2 stacks, then a stack of 37 DN deals 555 damage.

Andrail

Very interesting. Too many "ifs". How often do you level up a Barbarian into a mage with casters, take artifacts from Sar-Issa, Secrets of the Light, etc.?

Why often? Once is enough to surprise the opponent. If I find a couple of artifacts from Sar-Issa, then the temptation to level up Secrets of the Light will be great.

Andrail

The thing is that Daughters of the Sky need to be leveled up, while Daughters of the Earth can deal damage right away.

And also, Free Cyclops need specific leveling, after which they destroy everything with their club, and what?
Does this mean they are weaker than Bloodeyes?

Andrail

Daughters of the Sky are practically inferior to them in everything, and there is no compensation for magical power.

I repeat - such a boost, after which they start casting chain lightning right away, is too much. It's just too much.

serovoy

6 years ago

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Regarding unused abilities, it's a very interesting topic. I know that there were supposed to be "Flame of Vengeance" for the Priests, "Crystalline Scale" for the Crystal Dragons, immunity to earth and an aura of vulnerability to it for different creatures; I also found "Double Shot" in the game files; it's interesting who they were planning to give that to.

In reply to serovoy

Андраил

6 years ago

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serovoy

The discussion about unused abilities is very interesting. I know that there was supposed to be a "Flame of Vengeance" ability for the Priests, "Crystal Scale" for the Crystal Dragons, immunity to earth and an aura of vulnerability to it for different creatures; I also found "Double Shot" in the game files; I wonder who they were planning to give it to?

I think you posted in the wrong place, didn't you?

serovoy

6 years ago

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I know it's off-topic, but unused abilities were mentioned briefly on the previous page, so I decided to bring it up.

Waterfall_13

6 years ago

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IMHO

If the goal is to make alternative upgrades competitive with each other,
then it's pointless to base decisions on nerfs.
Why?

Players prefer one upgrade over another because it provides greater benefits. Trying to make an underperforming upgrade more viable by nerfing the superior upgrade is like nerfing an entire faction.

Therefore, only buffs for alternative upgrades. No nerfs.

Nargott

6 years ago

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It's foolish to rely solely on buffs, as the strength of creatures is relative to each other. You can buff 95% of the weaker creatures, or you can nerf 5% of the strongest. Where is the change minimal? Obviously, in the second case. There are obvious overpowered units, like Sylvan archers, elite crossbowmen, and elite vampires – you can't just leave them as they are. But what if the damage of Sylvan archers was not 8-9, but 20-30, or elite vampires stunned with 100% certainty – would you also need to upgrade the others to the same level?

In reply to Nargott

Waterfall_13

6 years ago

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Nargott

What if the damage of Sylvan archers was not 8-9, but 20-30, or if Vampire Bats stunned with 100% guarantee – wouldn't you also need to raise the upgrades to the same level?

This statement is more suitable for balancing factions, not alternative upgrades.

Everyone plays with Sylvan archers. The faction's strength relies on this. If you nerf the archers, the entire faction will suffer relative to others (even if only slightly).
As I wrote above, it is my personal opinion that the approach of "updating an unpopular upgrade by nerfing a popular one" is incorrect.

I agree that the chance of Vampire Bats stunning is unclear. But the chance itself is not very good. In any case, it should have been adjusted.

P.S. I liked the idea of reducing the cost of Bone Dragon buildings.

Waterfall_13

6 years ago

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IMHO: I did it this way: https://youtu.be/LdYWiLg4jsE Although I'm thinking that this might be too much. I would like to increase the combat PA to 100% as well, but I don't know where to do it (I didn't find anything in DefaultStats for Sylvan). The ability to cast Haste once per battle is quite good, in my opinion. Again, if the elf didn't go into light magic, a white unicorn, which will also receive Haste on itself, would be a good choice. And if he went into light magic, then you can cast Haste twice through Light Spells. UPD: I reduced it to a general Haste (+20% to initiative), but I'm thinking of reducing it to the initial value (+10% to initiative). Combat PA now deals 100% damage to everyone (thanks to Andrail for the tip).

In reply to Waterfall_13

Андраил

6 years ago

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Waterfall_13

I would like to increase the combat skill to 100% as well, but I don't know where to do it (I couldn't find anything in DefaultStats for Sylvan).

Combat skill is a pattern; you can change the damage coefficient in the file for the dancing skeleton. It should be like this:

1.0

Added 1 minute ago
And why is Haste written in purple, if it's a Light magic spell?

In reply to Андраил

Waterfall_13

6 years ago

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Andrail

The combat buff is a pattern; the damage coefficient can be changed in the file of the dancing death creature itself. It should be like this:
1.0
Added one minute later
And why is Haste written in purple, if it's a Light magic spell?

The color indication is not based on magic schools but on magic levels.
Red is for expert, purple is for advanced.

Regarding the dancing death creatures, I'm still testing them. From a late-game perspective, such a Haste buff might be comparable to the significantly superior characteristics of the dancing with the wind creatures.

But from an early-game perspective, such a Haste buff seems too strong for a Tier 2 unit.
Maybe I'll make its Haste 10% (although that's very weak). But then I'll have to add something else.

In reply to Waterfall_13

DirtyLiar

6 years ago

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Turning a unit that is clearly designed for melee combat into a caster is questionable. If you really want to speed up the Dancers, there's an ability called Charge.

In reply to DirtyLiar

Waterfall_13

6 years ago

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DirtyLiar

Turning a clearly melee-focused unit into a caster is questionable. If you really want to speed up the Dancers, there's an ability called Charge.

Well, "caster" sounds strong, but he only has 1 attempt. =)

Charge lasts for 3 turns, and they already have high initiative.

Just to clarify, the Dancing with Death unit has 15 Initiative!
And Charge adds another 8 Initiative.

A general speed boost is already a bit much (I'm thinking of lowering it to an initial +10%), and Charge... that's not a Tir upgrade for the unit at all.

In reply to Waterfall_13

DirtyLiar

6 years ago

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Waterfall_13

Well, the caster sounds powerful, after all, he only has 1 attempt.

What difference does it make? Mana + spell = caster.

Waterfall_13

Just to clarify, Dance with Death has 15 Initiative!
And Pressure adds another 8 Initiative.

Incorrect understanding of how Pressure works. Its application doubles the initiative.

In reply to DirtyLiar

Waterfall_13

6 years ago

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A misunderstanding of how Push works. Its application doubles initiative. Well, then it's even more overpowered... it turns out that with 15 initiative, it will jump to 23, not 23. And with 15, it will jump to 30! We won't consider Push for a Death Knight.

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