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Posts from Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition - Tactical Edition. Auto-translated

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#802
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"Ment"
I disagree. Let the Knight drop defense and add machines. This would give the class a focus on an aggressive style. Let the Temple hero drop machines and add defense.
There was such a proposal—to drop defense. But several players (myself included) had very serious arguments against it: a knight without defense is not a knight. Even if it is an attacking class. In other words, this point is fundamental (a hard contradiction).

Defense is also a poor fit for the Temple hero. The Temple hero is a line of monks. If the knight also has defense, then we would have 3 classes with defense, whereas defense should not be a racial skill (it is racial for dwarves; for humans, it is leadership).
So are they Temple heroes or fanatics? If the focus is specifically on zeal in a religious sense, rather than the fact that they are clergy, then it's better to call them fanatics, as suggested above. If the essence is in the profession, not the outlook, then the education is appropriate.
Definitely fanatics. But I don't understand why "either/or".
The word fanatic doesn't explain the magical orientation and the extremely high SP (40%). And a class with such a name would be more suited to face-value leadership (20%), not wizardry. Which isn't great because of the similarity to the paladin's face (Lead+Light+Dark vs Lead+Light+Def).
And does he definitely need wizardry? The synergy with dark and light is mediocre anyway.
All classes with 40% spellcasting have wizardry (the same applies to attack, defense, knowledge—and their corresponding skills).
Wizardry is useful for Light and Dark because in WGE, the main strength of this skill lies in the abilities (keen mind; the mana branch, which is critical for low knowledge; the spellcasting branch with a total boost up to +6, which is important for short-term casts).
And let's not forget that mass spells are an expensive pleasure; mana is scarce, and humans with 10% knowledge certainly won't have enough mana to use them constantly, whereas when target-specific casts come into play, the skill itself will matter.
That's the point; having more than two schools of magic is pointless. It gives almost no tactical variability or direct bonuses.
Under the bonuses from those abilities, it turns out it's not pointless.
Approximate version: Light+Dark+a third school.
Mass buffs: stone skin, possibly evasion; mass debuffs: weakness, curse, slow, possibly distraction; and then kill with a phoenix/elementals/chaos, etc.
And if the "magical omniscience" skill remains in the game, the archmage will have negative synergy with it... Which looks completely strange.
Doubtful. Yes, part of the schools' effect disappears—the ability to learn new spells. However, the main strength of schools is the enhancement of spells, which combines with passive bonuses up to +8/+8 from education abilities.
These +8/+8 are equal in power to the original +16/+16 (since each characteristic is twice as strong in terms of balance). I doubt an archmage with such a bonus will suffer much from extra schools, especially since he doesn't even need to max them out—just taking them is enough.
Therefore, my thought is to give the class a bonus to compensate for these shortcomings compared to other classes of the faction.
I don't see any shortcomings here, since generally, a build via education+wizardry+two schools of magic works for many other classes; the archmage is not unique here.

Added after 9 minutes
"Heretic"? "Centurion" (a leader of a "legion", that is)?
Heretic fits Heroes 3, where demonic heroes were humans who betrayed their faith. But a native demon clearly cannot be a heretic, unless he turns toward the Light :)
Centurion/Legate? Sounds Roman. I can't say yet if it's good or not.
But the faction is indeed called "Infernal Legions".

Added after 2 minutes
What about Agrael's initiative?
Gating is magic, if you think about it. And in my opinion, it's no longer for meat (you have to build him up very well to crush with meat), but for tactical opportunities. Blocking enemy shooters, keeping your main stack out of the line of fire, removing retaliation... I think for a hero with a magic lean, this arrangement works.
Agrael is a campaign hero with an uninteresting, duplicating special ability (similar to analogues); you can do whatever you want with him. A different matter is a standard hero with a unique special ability.
Too many specialists on initiative. Wingaël (starting turn) will definitely remain and perhaps there will be one more for initiative (penalty). But no more. Initiative bonuses already conventionally exist for Vinrael (who has the Haste specialization).

Regarding gating, Nimus crushes specifically with meat. Since his specialization does not qualitatively enhance gating, only quantitatively. Like a combatant.

By the way, in a neighboring thread (MMH5.5), gating is implemented that summons a smaller number of creatures, but faster.
The summoner spends 75% of the turn (instead of 50%). The summoned unit starts with 75% of the accumulated turn (instead of 0), thus beginning to act after 1+0.25 = 1.25 turns from the moment of summoning (instead of after 2 turns). The amount of meat is reduced to 15-25%.
I don't really like the numbers (about 75%), but what do you think of the idea itself—is it worth trying to port to WGE? Or is the old gating with a large amount of meat, but delayed, better?
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#803
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A Knight without defense is not a Knight. Even if it's an attacking class. This means this point is very important (a clear contradiction).
Okay. Knight => General. Is that better?
Besides, Humans already have Knights. A Paladin is a specific type of Knight.
Mass buffs: Stone Skin, possibly Dodge; mass debuffs: Weakness, Curse, Slow, possibly Confusion; and then kill with Phoenix/Elementals/Chaos, etc.
I'm not sure about this scheme. Of course, the battle dynamics are different, but still. It looks like the hero will cast buffs/debuffs seven times in a battle, and then only use Chaos magic. )
-------------
Adding to this.
The Heretic is suitable for Heroes 3, where the demon heroes were humans who betrayed their faith.
And there are such characters in the fifth game as well. Agrael, for example. Godric's brother, Aidan, almost succumbed to corruption. Perhaps Jezebeth was an elf before. Actually, I think Infernal creatures are good recruiters, and many people joined Urgash. More precisely, this is a version, but it doesn't contradict the lore.
By the way, in the neighboring thread (MMH5.5), a gating system is implemented that summons a smaller number of creatures, but more quickly.
The Summoner spends 75% of their turn (instead of 50%). The summoned unit starts with 75% of its accumulated turn (instead of 0), so it starts acting after 1+0.25 = 1.25 turns from the moment of summoning (instead of 2 turns). The amount of "meat" is reduced to 15-25%.
I don't really like the numbers (the 75%), but how do you like the idea itself? Should we try to implement it in WGE? Or is the old gating system with a larger amount of "meat" but a delayed start better?
This is interesting.
 

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#804
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Ment

The same applies to the fifth game. Agrael, for example. Godric's brother, Aidan, almost succumbed to corruption. Perhaps Jezebeth was an elf before. In fact, I think infernals are good recruiters, and many people switched to Urgash. Or, to be more precise, that's one possible explanation, but it doesn't contradict the lore.
Agrael is not a human, but a High Elf (originally, he was even a Low Elf). Aidan didn't willingly choose this precarious path, and as soon as he realized what was happening, he became a dragon knight. Jezebeth was a human (remember the human campaign in Heroes 6).
- Well, that's according to the lore (this lore is already getting tiresome - sometimes I just want to take at least one step in a different direction).
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#805
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So, what about the heroes? There are many heroes in the game, after all, there are crowds of them. Do you want to take them from NHF or come up with/remember them yourself? Or will it stay as it is?
У меча предназначения два острия, одно из них ты.

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#806
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I would also like to note what details were emphasized, in addition to the basic idea – to develop 24 unique classes, conceptually cohesive, and with good distinctions from each other.

1) Each class has only 3 core skills (20%), and the faces of different classes differ in at least 1 skill out of 3, and the faces of different classes within the same race differ in at least 2 skills out of 3. Core skills are very important because they can always be easily upgraded (20%), and they are also the starting skills for heroes of this class (3 skills - 3 heroes).

2) Each class has 6 profile skills (3 core skills at 20% and 3 secondary skills at 10%), and the profiles of different classes differ in at least 2 skills out of 6, regardless of race. In the previous version, the differences were even greater (at least 3 out of 6), in this regard, the version was ideal, but it did not meet the requirements of conceptual integrity (there were many controversial decisions). Profile skills are important because they are readily available for the class (especially 20%).

3) The remaining skills are considered rare (1-2%) and drop only if you're lucky. Their purpose is to provide surprises, but nothing more. The class cannot rely on these skills, unlike the profile skills. However, with each level up, there is a total chance of 10% that one of the rare skills will drop. That is, with a 10% chance, you can get any specific secondary skill, and with a 10% chance, you can get a random skill from the rare ones (1 out of 6). The numbers are chosen in such a way as to be as convenient as possible for the player.

4) The conceptual integrity of the race is also important, so all classes within the same race have 3 common racial profile skills (in addition to the racial skill itself).

Also, I abandoned those classes that had access to only 1 or 3 schools. Since access to only 1 school provides little variety in terms of magic. And access to 3 schools imposes many requirements on the class to support them. A combat class should not have 3 magical schools, this is the domain of a magical class. But a magical class needs spellcasting, and preferably – education (to gain access to 2-3 schools simultaneously, with bonuses). As a result, it turns out to be almost an archmage, add a 4th school = archmage. This class is unique. Also, mages have support for non-racial schools at the level of a library (other races do not have such support). Therefore, other races do not have classes that play with 3 schools.

The question is, why 6 profile skills, and not 8? Answer: A - archmage. This class is self-sufficient with its 6 skills, neither to add nor to subtract. The more skills, the more overlaps there will be with other classes, and the less the uniqueness of the class, its character, will be expressed. This is especially important when there are many classes. With 8 classes (as in the original), the optimal number of profile skills is about 8, because there is only 1 class per race, and it is necessary to provide it with many roles at once (flexibility). But it is impossible to make 24 classes unique with 8 profile skills, greater specialization is needed (and greater ideological integrity). The example of MMH5.5 shows that many classes are similar to each other, but this is not due to poor implementation, but to the system itself (8 profiles).

Are 6 profile skills enough for variety? Considering that the upgrade most often consists of 3-4 skills, in addition to the racial one, I think so. This means that the build will include approximately 50% of the profile skills (3 out of 6) and, possibly, some rare skill that was randomly obtained. But if you focus on a super-long game, with filling all 5 non-racial skills (up to level 34), then 6 profiles will no longer be enough for variability.

In summary:
1) profile skills of 6 instead of 8 are necessary to ensure the uniqueness of 24 classes (for 8 classes, 8 skills are the best option)
2) profile skills of 6 instead of 8 are not suitable for a long game of 30+ levels, but it is not designed for this (already starting from level 16, the education skill becomes too strong)

Despite the fact that the total number of level-ups is planned to be lower than in the original (where, at a normal pace, there were about 15-25 levels), however, each level-up gives significantly more. Both in terms of parameters (+1 to attack due to a 10% step plays: similarly +2 with a 5% step in the original, or similarly +3 with a 3.33% step in MMH5.5), and in terms of skills. Being one of the most ardent haters of millimeter skills, I make sure that each skill or level of skill gives a significant bonus, at least +10% (for narrowly specialized things, at least +25%).

Added 5 minutes ago
"Ment"
Okay. Knight => general. Is that better?
Besides, knights already exist in humans. Paladin is a special case of a knight.
I fundamentally disagree. Knight is one of the iconic names that cannot be changed. It's like removing the archmage or warlock.
And names like "general" somehow seem out of place in a fantasy setting.

Even if we ignore this, there is also the general focus of the race on protection and initiative (leadership). Protection implies that at least 2 out of 3 classes should have "Protection" in their profile. And why protection is not suitable for templars, I already wrote. In general, the character of a templar is to deliver the most powerful spells and quickly kill (while mana hasn't run out). Protection is not relevant here, even in terms of gameplay. Although, perhaps I am wrong, and the templar will have tolerable builds through darkness.

Added 10 minutes ago
I doubt such a scheme. Of course, the dynamics of the battle are different with you, but still. It looks like the hero will cast buffs/debuffs seven times in a battle, and then only go with chaos )
Well, not all at once, but something from the list. But if the opponent has nothing to remove these spells, he simply won't be able to break through the archmage, even if he has 200% damage. Since the spells are very powerful, and thanks to the extreme spellcasting, they last a long time.
There are such in the fifth. Agrail, at least. Godric's brother, Aidan, almost became corrupted. Perhaps, Jezebeth used to be an elf. In fact, I think infernals are good recruiters, and a lot of people switched to Urgash. In fact, this is a version, but it does not contradict the lore.
They already have a demonic appearance, and as demons, they think quite "orthodoxly," a heretic is not associated with this.
Although, I may be wrong here - I need to take another look at the hero icons from part 3, perhaps there are also heretics in a demonic appearance.
"Interested"
So, what about the heroes? There are many living creatures in the game, there are crowds of living creatures in the game. Do you want to take them from NHF or come up with/remember them? Or will it stay the same?
I don't care about the living and the dead, if the hero is good, we will take him, if not, he is not needed. The charisma of the heroes is more important than the plot (the fact of his death). Perhaps because there are clearly no fans of the Heroes 5 plot among the developers :)
When suggesting new options, remember that we have only 3 places for each class, only the best heroes.
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#807
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Agrail isn't a human, but a TE (originally, even an LE). Aidan didn't voluntarily embark on this precarious path, and as soon as he regained consciousness, he became a dragon knight. Jezebel was a human (let's remember the human campaign in Heroes 6).
I didn't know about Jezebel (my information about her comes from Clash of Heroes; I haven't played much of the sixth installment). The rest – well, yes, that's essentially what the point is. It's clear that not all of them are humans, but essentially, they are heretics.
I fundamentally disagree. Knight is one of the iconic names that shouldn't be changed. It's like removing the Archmage or the Necromancer.
If there's a Paladin, I don't understand why there also has to be a Knight. In terms of meaning, it's like creating "Knight" and "Honored Knight" as separate classes, with the latter being one of two alternative classes. I'm not even mentioning the fact that this simplifies the selection of unit names (it's easier to come up with a name for human cavalry so that it doesn't overlap with the hero class name. Otherwise, there's a Paladin class and a Knight class, and there are almost no names left for the cavalry... Well, if the goal is to eliminate duplicates).
I already wrote why defense isn't suitable for Templars.
Perhaps I missed it... I remember the following explanation:
Defense is also not good for the Templar. The Templar is a line of monks. If defense is also present in the Knight, then there will be 3 classes with defense, even though defense shouldn't be a common racial skill (it's a common racial skill for dwarves; for humans, it's leadership).
Well, not all at once, but something from the list. But if the opponent has nothing to remove these buffs, they simply won't be able to break through the Archmage, even if they have 200% damage. Since the buffs are very powerful and, thanks to the extreme magic, last a long time.
Then we have two options: 1) There's nothing to remove the buffs. Okay, then why do we need another school of magic? We've already gained a significant advantage. Combat skills will only strengthen it. 2) There is something to remove the buffs. Okay, we repeat our buffs to maintain the army's combat effectiveness. Why another school of magic?
heresy isn't associated with this.
Okay, if that's the case.
 

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#808
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"Ment"
If there's a Paladin, I don't understand why there also needs to be a Knight. In terms of meaning, it's like creating "Knight" and "Honored Knight" as separate classes, with both being alternative options.
Not to mention that this simplifies the process of choosing unit names (it's easier to come up with a name for human cavalry so that it doesn't overlap with the hero class name. Otherwise, we have a Paladin class and a Knight class, and there are almost no names left for the cavalry... Well, if the goal is to eliminate duplicates, this is what we should do).
The image of a Paladin differs from that of a classic Knight, just as a Witch differs from a housewife with a broom.
A Paladin is a Knight with serious magical abilities. A regular Knight is not associated with magic in any way.

As for the duplication of unit names, this is too strict a requirement. If we follow it, many classes/units will lose a significant portion of their charisma. At least, I can't come up with such names. Knight, Paladin, Druid, Priest, Fiend, Assassin, Reaper, Warlord, Shaman.

Added 4 minutes later
Then we have two options.
1) There's nothing to remove the buffs with. Okay, then why do we need another school of magic? We've already gained a significant advantage. Combat skills will only strengthen him.
2) There is something to remove the buffs with. Okay, we repeat our debuffs to maintain the army's combat effectiveness. Why another school of magic?
1) It's not necessarily an advantage; I listed slowing/weakening/strengthening debuffs for a reason. Their role is to buy time for the hero by reducing the enemy's damage by a significant amount, not to kill them with troops.
2) It's not necessary to repeat them; you can play with the ones that remain. They give you armor - okay. They give you a curse - counter it with a blessing. They give you a slow - it goes without a counter. We move on to the next stage, to the killing spells. If we only play with debuffs, a 3rd school is definitely not needed.

An area-of-effect Stone Skin reduces the damage received by 2-2.5 times. An area-of-effect slow reduces the enemy's initiative to 30-40%. If both of these debuffs are active, no combat skills will be needed for the Archmage to survive.
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#809
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The image of a paladin differs from that of a classic knight, just as a witch differs from a housewife with a broom.
A paladin is a knight with significant magical abilities. A regular knight is not associated with magic in any way.
Once again, every paladin is a knight. Not the other way around, yes, only in that order. But it's a fact.
A witch is not a housewife with a broom. A more appropriate analogy would be "witch vs. herbalist." That is, a witch is an herbalist, knows plants, but also uses magic. And an herbalist, in general, does not use magic. But only in general.
However, to avoid arguing for the sake of arguing, I'll say this – the point is not crucial. In principle, I can accept the argument about cars in AoW III, and so on; there isn't too much dissonance here. There is some, but it's minor, and you can get used to it.
 

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#810
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Regarding the units – is there a table that shows their locations by tier? – I assume the old one is no longer relevant.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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#811
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This is important; the main thing is to avoid strong disapproval. It’s impossible to completely smooth out all the rough edges because everyone has different ideas. For example, I allow an Assassin in the Engineering skill tree (Assassins are good at creating mechanical traps), but this bothers some people.
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#812
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1) It’s not necessarily an advantage; I didn’t list slowing/weakening/strengthening spells for no reason. Their role is to buy time for the hero by reducing the enemy’s damage by a significant amount, not to kill their troops.
2) It’s not necessary to repeat them; you can play using the ones that remain. They gave you Skin – okay. They gave you Curse – you countered it with Blessing. They gave you Slow – it went without a counter. We move on to the next stage, to the killing spells. If we only play with support spells, the 3rd school is definitely not needed.
The key words are “not necessarily.” These are all possible options that can be implemented in battle, but it is unknown whether they will provide any noticeable advantage. I believe that this is a false sense of variability, and it will be less effective than simple combat skills.
Area-of-effect Stone Skin reduces the damage received by 2-2.5 times. Area-of-effect Slow reduces the enemy’s initiative to 30-40%. If both of these support spells are active, no combat skills will be needed for the Archmage to survive.
But is Chaos needed?
 

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#813
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Chaos isn't needed for survival, but to kill. The point is that while you're setting all this up, a combat-focused hero might manage to destroy a large part of the army (each cast takes up 100% of the turn, not 50%), so physically, even such powerful casts might not be enough to kill the remaining troops. But to last longer while the hero uses Chaos/Summoning – that's possible.

I just don't see any reason why this shouldn't work. You invest only 4 perks in Light/Dark (basic Light + Defense Master, basic Dark + Mind Master), and you already have powerful containment tools; it's not necessary to maximize Light/Dark, you can invest the rest in other schools of magic, education, and enchantment.

For example, here's a 15th-level Archmage (shown on the original skill tree):


If you compare this to a similar build focused on solo Summoning and combat skills (Skilled Defense + Dodge + Sturdy Defense + Resilience), the player using 4 schools gets, instead of a base defense, a +6/+6 passive bonus to Magic and Knowledge (equivalent to +12/+12 in the original), and many additional strong options (namely, the Light and Dark casts themselves, and stunning lightning).
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#814
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Regarding paladins: Wikipedia article
From there, it is clear that in fantasy, a paladin is a warrior of light with magical skills and deep religious inclinations. A knight is a noble honorary title, earned through battles. A knight must have religious inclinations. Even since ancient times, cavalry has consisted of nobility. Knights are essentially the same. So, a knight is a deserving warrior, and a paladin is a warrior of light.
У меча предназначения два острия, одно из них ты.

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#815
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Chaos isn't needed for survival, but to kill. The point is that while you're setting all this up, the attacker might manage to destroy a large part of the army (each cast takes 100% of the turn, not 50%), so physically, even such powerful casts might not be enough to kill the remaining units. But to last longer while the hero uses chaos/summoning – maybe.
Ah, if there were combat skills, there would be no need to survive on "scraps"...
I don't know. Maybe you're right. But I'm still skeptical. I'd like to see such a build in action.
 

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#816
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"SRD"
Regarding units, is there a table that lists their locations by tier? - I assume the old one is no longer relevant.

The values are presented as: weekly increase / number of creatures = relative to the strength of 1 standard dragon.
In parentheses - the cost of 1 creature (linearly proportional to its strength).

Formal division:
TIER 1 (average standard of 40 creatures per dragon)
14/56 goblin (100)
12/48 gremlin, fairy (125)
10/40 militia, imp (150)
12/36 skeleton (175)
10/30 guard (200)
6/24 assassin (250)

TIER 2 (average standard of 24)
10/30 pikeman, zombie (200)
9/27 demon, gargoyle (225)
8/24 archer (250)
8/20 dancer (300)
6/18 shaman (350)
6/15 beast (400)

TIER 3 (average standard of 15)
10/20 ghost (300)
8/20 berserker (300)
9/18 succubus (350)
6/15 swordsman, ogre (400)
8/12 hunter (500)
5/12 golem (500)
6/9 minotaur (700)

TIER 4 (average standard of 10)
7/14 cerberus (450)
5/12 centaur (500)
5/10 monk, druid (600)
6/9 mage (700)
4/8 bear, predator (800)
3/6 vampire (1000)

TIER 5 (average standard of 6)
4/8 priest (800)
5/7 nightmare, unicorn (900)
4/6 witch, griffin (1000)
3/6 leader (1000)
4/4 djinn (1500)
3/4 lich (1500)

TIER 6 (average standard of 3)
6/6 knight (1000)
3/4 wyvern (1500)
3/3 reaper, rakshasa (2000)
2/3 balor (2000)
2/2 ent, than (3000)
1/2 hydra (3000)

TIER 7 (average standard of 1.5)
1/2 necrodragon (2000 + 2m)
2/2 angel (2000 + 2c)
2/2 devil (2500 + m)
1/1 light/dark dragon (4000 + 4g/s)
1/1 titan, dwarf dragon, cyclops (5000 + 2g/s/c)

Informal division (in the spirit of Heroes 4):
TIER I
56 goblins (100)
48 gremlins, fairies (125)
40 militia, imps (150)
36 skeletons (175)
30 guards, pikemen, zombies (200)
27 demons, gargoyles (225)
24 assassins, archers (250)

TIER II
20 dancers, berserkers, ghosts (300)
18 succubi, shamans (350)
15 beasts, ogres, swordsmen (400)
14 cerberuses (450)
12 hunters, golems, centaurs (500)
10 monks, druids (600)

TIER III
9 minotaurs, mages (700)
8 bears, predators, priests (800)
7 nightmares, unicorns (900)
6 vampires, knights, leaders, witches, griffins (1000)
4 liches, djinns, wyverns (1500)

TIER IV
3 balors, reapers, rakshasas (2000)
2 hydras, ents, thans, angels, devils, necrodragons (2000-3000)
1 light/dark/dwarf dragon, titan, cyclops (4000-5000)
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