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The attacking hero cannot retreat in the first round of combat if:
26
voters
Single choice
Public votes
Closed
2010-12-02
This poll is closed.
he or his units cast any spell
65.4%17 votes
He cast direct damage spells (the list is in the first post of the thread) and dealt damage to the opponent's units
34.6%9 votes
Pit for LM
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What is Hit&Run?
A serious question: the existing rule is understood differently, and controversial situations constantly arise in matches, even among experienced players; it is also quite difficult for judges to interpret it. Discussions about changing the rule have been ongoing for a long time.
Two options are put up for voting:
Option 1. Hit & Run is prohibited: an attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he or his units cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
Option 2. Hit & Run is prohibited: an attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he casts direct damage magic (magic arrow, lightning bolt, ice storm, chain lightning, meteor shower, explosion, Inferno, fireball, ring of cold, wave of death, armageddon) and deals damage to enemy units. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
Hit & Run is prohibited: an attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he uses combat magic or any other that directly or indirectly causes any damage to the opponent. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
When developing a new version of the rules, it was proposed to change it to:
Hit & Run is prohibited: an attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he uses direct-action combat magic that damages the opponent. It is allowed to inflict damage on oneself (for example, to reduce the ransom cost). If there is resistance to magic, no damage is dealt, therefore retreating is also possible. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
Several more options emerged during the discussion.
Obviously, clear wording needs to be developed and a vote held to resolve this issue.
I moved posts related to Hit&Run here.
Gomunguls
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Dirty_Player
Damn, not unimportant... After the destructive magic, mass haste or mass slow will follow, and for the attacker, the second round may never come. And hit-and-run should not be allowed at all. I think I don't need to explain the reason.
The reason doesn't need explaining... attacking, buying yourself out, and attacking again — that's only one of the options... I only see one thing — a scout hero must deal maximum damage, he uses magic once or, if lucky, twice, and he fulfills his task... In either case, if he can use magic, it's already a tough situation...
What does "anyway" mean? If he doesn't retreat in the first round, there's a high probability that he'll die in the second without using magic. It's a normal trade: sacrificing units for a hero. But if you let him retreat in the first round, he can simply destroy all the stacks with an explosion in 7 rounds.
Wicc
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Apparently, when developing the rules, the factor of unifying the rules with other sites was forgotten. And yet this is a necessary thing that simplifies playing on different sites.
For example, let's take the point about hit-and-run. In the next edition of BT, the checkbox prohibiting it will finally be fixed, and the functionality will be as follows: prohibiting the attacking player who cast a spell in the 1st turn from fleeing/retreating.
A similar form of the rule should be introduced into the rules of HeroesWorld. Because asm will clearly not be programming damage analysis, determining who was dealt damage, etc., if only because this is fraught with bugs. Not to mention various options on the theme of "a spell that affected the opponent's damage." The simpler the restriction, the better.
Well, what does "one way or another" mean? If he doesn't retreat in the first round, there's a high probability that in the second round he'll die without using magic. A fair trade of meat for a hero. But if you let him retreat in the first round, he can simply destroy all stacks with an explosion in 7 rounds.
I'll say it again — for me, the concept of hit-and-run doesn't exist at all... it's just lines in the world's rules that one has to follow... If I train a mage in order to deal damage to the enemy and retreat in the first round to save him, what's the problem?? There's an antidote to poison... so if you show up without magic protection, get it full force, whether from a scout hero or a GG... retreating in the first round is just as much a part of the game... That's why I'm against hit-and-run...
According to point 5.2, I believe it is correct to establish the following:
5.2. Hit-and-run tactics are prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they have used magic that, in any way, worsens the opponent's position. It is permissible to inflict damage on oneself (e.g., to reduce the ransom cost). If the attack is resisted, the attacking hero may retreat in the first round. The hit-and-run rule does not apply to a hero who is defending.
С истиной где-то рядом...
Лето 2010.
Pit for LM
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Regarding hit-and-run tactics. We will not revoke the ban on it. Opinions:
I think we should remove this rule about hit-and-run altogether... retreating in the first or second round is no longer that important... Not so unimportant... After offensive magic, there might be a follow-up with mass haste or mass slow, and for the attacker, the second round may not even come. And allowing hit-and-run is completely unacceptable. Against hit-and-run... Moreover, after any spell cast. Definitely against hit-and-run.
The existing rule:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he has used combat magic or any other magic that directly or indirectly inflicted damage on the opponent. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
allows for various interpretations, is difficult for players to understand, and makes judging challenging. Therefore, it needs to be changed давно.
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he has used direct action combat magic that inflicts damage on the opponent. It is allowed to inflict damage on oneself (for example, to reduce the ransom). If there is magic resistance, no damage is done, so retreating is also possible. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
There was some heated discussion about it in winter; I can't find where, as real didn't let me monitor the forum at the time. I don't know how it ended.
Then they voted in the AC for this formulation:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he has used any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
I don't know why the changes weren't made then.
Now Dubrovin Pavel proposed another formulation:Dubrovin Pavel
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle, if he has used magic that directly or indirectly worsens the opponent's position. It is allowed to inflict damage on oneself (for example, to reduce the ransom). With magic resistance, the attacking hero may retreat in the first round. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
And Wicc rightly noted:Wicc
...let's take the point about hit-and-run. In the next edition of the rules, there will be ... a ban on fleeing/paying off for the attacking player who cast magic in the 1st turn. A similar rule should be introduced into the ХВ rules as well.... The simpler the restriction, the better.
In summary of the discussion, I propose adopting the simplest and most understandable formulation from all those offered:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero does not have the right to retreat in the first round of battle if he casts any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
If anyone strongly opposes this formulation, please let me know, and I will create a poll.
Oelm
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Against it, definitely. Vik wrote this, obviously with the aim of unifying the rules in some way, although everyone knows that the ban on hit-and-run was implemented due to a bug in the game. I support the formulation that was used on the forum before. It shouldn't be allowed for the attacker to use direct damage magic in the first round and then retreat – it's simple and clear. Peter's formulation contains hidden pitfalls that are not immediately obvious. For example, in a game, when one opponent has an implant and the other doesn't, they often become practically invulnerable. The only effective way to counter an implant-powered hit-and-run is with another spell, which, by the way, is not easy. Your formulation essentially forces the side without the implant to surrender in this case.
P.S. I'm not sure if an additional poll is needed here.
Hit-and-run tactics should at least be limited in some way by counter-magic from the "defending" side. And in general, we need to learn to judge not by the letter of the rules, but by what makes sense in the game. IMHO.
I'm definitely against it. Vic wrote this, apparently with the goal of unifying the rules, although everyone knows that the ban on hit-and-run was implemented due to a bug in Warlords. I'm in favor of the formulation that was used on the forums before. It shouldn't be allowed for the attacker to use direct damage magic in the first round and then retreat – it's simple and clear. Peter's formulation contains hidden pitfalls that aren't immediately obvious. For example, in a game, when one opponent has an implant and the other doesn't, they often become practically invulnerable. The only effective way to counter an implant-enhanced hit-and-run is with another spell, which, by the way, is not easy to do. Your formulation essentially forces the side without the implant to surrender in this case.
P.S. I'm not sure if an additional poll is needed here.
Pasha, how would you evaluate the "direct damage" you advocate for if the attacker casts a mass slow (or speed) spell, fires, and retreats in the first round? In your opinion, is that allowed? If we take it literally, then it's not direct damage, and it's possible.
I like the formulation I wrote above, but I also agree with Peter's formulation. Direct damage magic can sometimes be worse than slow or speed spells. But if we take your formulation, then it will be possible to use speed and slow spells, which is very debatable.
I disagree, definitely. Vic wrote this, apparently with the aim of unifying the rules, although everyone knows that the hit-and-run ban was implemented due to a bug in Warlords.
The bug is that this ban also works for battles between a player and a neutral creature, and a player and a computer-controlled creature, which shouldn't be the case. It will be fixed in the next version.
In battles between players, it works correctly and exactly as I described - any spell cast by the attacker in the 1st round => it will not be possible to escape in the 1st round.
Pasha, how do you assess the "direct damage" you advocate for, if the attacker casts a mass slow (or speed boost), fires, and retreats in the first round? Is that acceptable in your opinion? Literally speaking, it's not direct damage, and it is possible.
Exactly. It's possible. At least because it's a game mechanic; for such a situation to occur, a first turn is needed, preferably with artillery focused on ranged attacks, and the attack itself. If significant damage is still dealt, the cost to recover won't be cheap. I'm not even mentioning the chance of resistance from Mass Slow. If we're talking about Mass Haste, there will be problems there too. It's a truly heroic moment.
The situation with direct damage is much darker. The cost to recover can be practically free, while the damage is monstrous (Implosion, Teapot, Armageddon, Meteor, etc.). Compare how many archers would be needed to deal comparable damage (the Defender hero also has parameters, armor, and so on).
Furthermore, a situation can arise specifically in SOD, where one of the players obtains Implosion, and it can't really be countered by anything other than a powerful hit-and-run tactic (and even that isn't easy). Moreover, even with a complete advantage in development, parameters, and scouting, you will essentially have to surrender against such a build.
I believe this is a better option than what is currently in WoG. If I remember correctly, there was a similar approach at some point, but they apparently couldn't implement it programmatically (although they may not have wanted to).
P.S. I'm not sure if an additional poll is needed here.
I wonder, what criteria should I use to determine which option is preferable for players? Personally, I don't care what rules we play by, as long as the opponent knows and follows them. If there is a dispute with serious arguments, there's no escaping a vote. Tomorrow morning, I'll create a poll. Let's decide on the options:
Option 1:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they cast any spell. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
Option 2:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they cast a spell that deals direct damage. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
To Oelm. Pasha, please clarify your wording. Should it include self-damage and resistance?
To Dubrovin Pavel. Pasha, will we put your wording up for a vote?
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they use a spell that, in one way or another, worsens the opponent's position. It is allowed to damage oneself (e.g., to reduce the ransom cost). If there is resistance, the attacking hero may retreat in the first round. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
From a general point of view, it seems clear that any spell is used to gain some benefit for oneself; otherwise, why use it? And if you cast a spell, be kind enough to listen to the opponent's response, instead of running away.
In general, let's have options and clear wording, because once the poll is created, it will be impossible to change the words or include other options.
By Dubrovin Pavel. Pasha, should we put your wording up for a vote?
It's not a big deal for me. Let me explain why this wording was suggested. Theoretically (and perhaps this only happens in isolated cases), I allow for a situation where the Attacking Player understands that they need to pay a tribute, but they don't have enough money. If we approve the wording that prohibits the use of any magic (or attempts to use it) in the first round, the Attacking Player may lose a larger portion of their Army than they would if they inflicted "calculated" damage on themselves and paid a tribute, allowing them to continue the fight.
I understand that this complicates the Game, but I believe that, on the other hand, it gives the Attacking Player more room to maneuver.
My version is stated correctly. Resistance and self-damage are not essential. For clarity, I suggest the following wording:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they cast direct damage magic (magic arrow, lightning bolt, ice bolt, chain lightning, meteor shower, explosion, inferno, fireball, ring of cold, wave of death, armageddon) and inflicted damage on the opponent's units. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
Pit for LM
