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Posts from UNIT - Creature Balance + Visual Changes
Frozensoull, I hope you will still find time for further mod development, as your mod is very useful and relevant!
Thank you for your feedback, I'm glad you liked the "UNIT" modification.
I started working on the next version back in August, but unfortunately, I don't have the opportunity to finish it now, and I can't even give an approximate timeline.
But the work on the project is not over yet, in the future the modification will continue to develop, albeit with a break.
I think the Minotaur Overseers are inferior to their Alt-Grey counterparts.
FrozensoullStatistics
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Version 2.2
(Changes in characteristics compared to previous versions of the mod are indicated in parentheses)
- Fixed text descriptions for some buildings, creatures, and hero specializations.
- Fixed the display of some animations.
Haven:
- Archers. Damage 4-6 (+2 to minimum and +2 to maximum damage), -Arc Shot. <description changed>
- Crossbowmen are now Imperial Archers. Damage 6-10 (+4 to minimum damage, +2 to maximum damage), Initiative 9 (+1), -Accurate Shot, +Arc Shot <creature model, animation, icon, and description changed>
- Marksmen are now Crossbowmen. Creature characteristics have been returned to their original state. <creature name changed>
//The concept of the second tier has been changed overall. Now, archers do not have any special abilities, but they have received an increase in damage as compensation for the loss of the special ability. Former crossbowmen (upgrade) now engage in ranged combat using a bow, and as a special ability, they have adopted "Arc Shot" from archers. Marksmen (alternative upgrade) have returned their random, but powerful damage. Now, when choosing to upgrade a creature, the player will have to choose between the ability to deal area damage (Imperial Archers) or deal high damage to a single target (Crossbowmen).
- Dark Hydras (upgrade). Attack 17 (+2), Damage 9-14 (+2 to maximum damage), -Acidic Blood. +Regeneration.
- Cave Hydras (alternative upgrade) are now Acid Hydras. -Regeneration. +Acidic Blood. <creature name changed>
Fortress:
- Fixed a bug where the "Fighting Arena" building required "Hall of Shields" only visually.
- Erls. Health 125 (-20).
- Lava Dragons. +Aura of Vulnerability to Fire.
- Ice Dragons. <description added to the creature's area of effect attack> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Download link https://yadi.sk/d/WHUI2sRt37JMtX. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I did exactly the same with the archers (all three of them), but my damage output is lower – it turned out to be too high.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален, Блистает там воздушностью прогалин. Но между кедров, полных тишиной, Расщелина по склону ниспадала. О, никогда под бледною луной Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
NargottStatistics
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As already mentioned, dealing 2-8 damage without any penalties is incredibly high.
The ability to deal area-of-effect damage is a very minor ability, much less useful than even a precise shot. Nevertheless, the damage dealt is so high (6-10) that even an elite archer would be impressed, especially considering the added initiative bonus.
So, I would say:
- Basic archers have been significantly strengthened (why?).
- Elite archers remain as powerful as ever.
- Upgraded archers have received a huge damage boost, plus an initiative bonus.
Overall, due to the upgrade, the human archers (already top-tier) have become even stronger. It's scary to think about how they will perform with a unicorn bow.
I didn't understand the weakening of the Ents at all. Especially, why specifically in terms of hit points (since it was an outstanding unit in terms of hit points).
Elite Minotaurs were stronger than the upgraded version, and they remain so, with the difference even increasing due to the stun ability.
Regarding Hydras, it seems things have returned to their original state: regeneration for the upgraded version, bloodlust for the elite version.
The reason for reducing the hit points of Erlings is unclear, as the Jarls have a great ranged ability (unlike the Erlings), which was previously compensated for by the Erlings' high hit points.
Overall, I probably shouldn't be commenting, as I've reviewed the first post again and there are still many questionable points, so there's no point in arguing again.
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serovoyStatistics
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Here's how I see the improvement for crossbowmen (archers and marksmen remain unchanged compared to the classic game): option 1) increase the minimum damage to 7; option 2) increase the initiative to 9, and the accurate shot range to 4; option 3) increase the accurate shot range to 6. I personally lean towards the third option.
As mentioned before, dealing 2-8 damage without any penalties is incredibly high. The ability to deal area-of-effect damage is a very minor ability, much less useful than even a precise shot. Nevertheless, the damage is set so high (6-10) that even an alternate unit would be impressive, considering the initiative bonus as well. So, I would say: - Basic archers have been significantly strengthened (why?) - Alternate archers remain as powerful as they were. - Upgraded archers have received a huge damage boost, plus initiative. Overall, due to the upgrade, the human archers (already top-tier) have become even stronger. It's scary to think about how they will perform with the Unicorn Bow.
Before the release of TOE, many experienced players didn't even upgrade archers, precisely because of the area-of-effect attack. By calling this ability minor, I think you rushed to judgment. The area-of-effect damage of archers often outweighed the single-target damage.
Now, let's analyze each creature separately: - Archers. The creatures have lost their main feature, essentially becoming ordinary ranged attackers, just like skeleton archers, which in turn reduces their value, unless this is compensated by increasing the damage.
- Crossbowmen (formerly archers, alternate upgrade). The creatures were given high, but also very random damage, not just like that. The faction as a whole lacked decent ranged damage. Besides the Tier 2 creatures, only Tier 5 creatures could deal ranged damage, but they are casters, and different types of priests, which, for logical reasons, cannot be associated with strong damage against enemies, so Tier 2 should compensate for this.
- Imperial Archers (formerly crossbowmen, upgrade). Since the creatures "requalified" as archers, a slightly increased initiative is a standard attribute for them, by the way, simple archers have a similar initiative. As for the damage, it's not that simple. The initial goal was to bring the upgrade to the level of the alternate upgrade, so that the player would have a real choice of upgrade, and not just an alternate upgrade by default. The alternate upgrade has very significant damage due to shooting without penalties, so it is not enough to outweigh this ability with just one area-of-effect ability, especially since the base damage will be divided by 2 when it is used, which in turn was the reason for increasing the damage for the upgrade. If you compare the upgrade and the alternate upgrade in ranged combat, the upgrade has about 30-35% less damage, but the upgrade has the ability to deal area-of-effect damage, which in turn makes it no less valuable.
Special attention should be paid to the artifact "Unicorn Horn Bow", which removes the shooting penalty for all archers. This artifact itself introduces a significant imbalance, because archers are different in strength, for example, Titans, for whom shooting without penalties simply turns into a one-shot kill. But that doesn't mean that now we need to reduce the damage of Titans by half? This is more of a problem with the artifact itself and its mechanics. There are plans for artifacts in the future, but since I haven't touched on this aspect yet, I don't think it makes sense to discuss it now.
Nargott
I didn't understand the weakening of Ents at all. Especially, why exactly in terms of hit points (because it was an outstanding unit in terms of hit points).
That's the point, Ents were incredibly durable. Of course, they had low initiative and speed, but their durability outweighed all these shortcomings many times over, and that's not even mentioning the usefulness of the "Entangling Roots" ability. + If you take into account the fact that their weekly increase is 5 units (with a built structure), then... there's nothing more to add... Nargott
Alternate Minotaurs were stronger than the upgraded ones, and they still are, the difference has even increased, due to the stun.
Overseer Minotaurs. The creatures had slightly increased durability, but a huge difference in outgoing damage (twice as much, lol), and they were given the ability to stun, thereby increasing their potential durability, i.e., the key feature of the alternate upgrade.
Guardian Minotaurs. The unit has quite good damage due to double attack, but it simply lacks the ability to "take damage". If you consider that the minotaur increase was slightly reduced in favor of proportionality, then it was fair to slightly increase their durability. Nargott
Regarding Hydras, as I understand it, regeneration returns to the upgrade, and acid blood to the alternate.
Yes, that's correct. The thing is that by previously swapping these abilities, I wanted to prepare the "ground" for subsequent changes, but later I decided to abandon them, so I returned everything to its original state, except that I changed the name of the alternate upgrade. I think the name "Acid Hydras" suits them better, based on the color and the "acid blood" ability. Nargott
The reason for reducing the hit points of Erlings is unclear, because the Jarls have a great ranged ability (unlike the Erlings), which was previously compensated by the Erlings' hit points.
The situation here is the same as with Ents, only on a smaller scale. If you compare them one-to-one, you can see that Erlings have almost the same extreme durability, but they also have a 100% chance of area-of-effect damage. Plus, it is worth considering the fact that all Tier 7 units in the faction have very high survivability, and they don't lose in damage either, there are also bears. Isn't there too many "tanks" for one faction...
Added 7 minutes ago serovoy
As I see the upgrade of crossbowmen (archers and shooters remain unchanged relative to the classic): option 1) increase the minimum damage to 7; option 2) increase the initiative to 9, and the range of the precise shot to 4; option 3) increase the range of the precise shot to 6. I personally lean towards the third option.
Thank you for the suggestion, but all similar changes have already been made and tested by me and several people interested in this. Unfortunately, opinions on the benefits of such changes were divided, but most of them still did not support them. But rewarding the upgrade with bows was very much appreciated by many.
I disagree with all the arguments. I won't explain why, as it's impossible given the difference in understanding of the game, and I don't want to start unnecessary arguments, as we've already had them. I could write an equally lengthy list of arguments, but it wouldn't be of any use. Therefore, my previous comments are sufficient.
Except for the hydras, as there wasn't even a debate about them.
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Валера12Statistics
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can you change the trapper so that he has a bow and arrows instead of a trap, and make the animation for shooting?
Акула97Statistics
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Damage 6-10!? That's like a level 4 creature, maybe the increase should be reduced? Regarding the Minotaur: maybe I'm wrong, and I don't appreciate the +3 bonus to morale, but I prefer it when a creature deals twice as much damage, rather than when the bonus works in a slightly less noticeable way.
Их было пять:smile18: Нас двадцать пять:smile10: Мы дрались-дрались:smile19: Пока не сравнялись:smile45: Эх,мы б им дали:smile14: Если б они нас догнали:smile21:
Славу великим Имперским латникам:smile49: !
NargottStatistics
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It's only twice as effective with a direct attack (not a counterattack), and even then, only if they don't receive an intermediate counterattack that reduces the power of their second strike. In short, a double strike is nowhere near equal to double damage; it's closer to one and a half times the damage. You could argue that they shouldn't be attacked directly, and all counterattacks will be negated, but the fact is that there's no point in taking Minotaurs into a direct attack, it's a waste of money, especially after their growth rate was reduced, as in this mod. They're just meat that accumulates in the city to be used for ransom towards the end of the game. Meat that is significantly weaker than Furies, but whose role is not to deal damage, but simply to endure, thanks to their relatively high health. And in this regard, the alternative is better.
I also wrote about the 6-10 damage of the archers, but it seems it was overlooked.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
Could you change the trapper to give him a bow and arrows instead of a trap, and make the shooting animation?
Unfortunately, this idea will not be implemented for the following reasons: 1) Goblins were not originally intended by the developers to be archers. 2) The faction already has one full-fledged archer (centaurs) and a second situational one (cyclops). Adding a third archer would be an obvious advantage, and the faction is already quite strong. 3) The ability to shoot in the upgraded version automatically eliminates the need for the alternative upgrade, which in turn contradicts the very concept of the modification, because there should be no useless creatures. 4) The goblin model is not suitable for "re-arming" because it is very short and has an overly "hunchbacked" shape (physically, creatures with such a build cannot make accurate shots. IMHO, of course.), plus there are no necessary animations. Akula97
Damage 6-10!? That's like level 4, maybe reduce the increase? Regarding the minotaur: maybe I'm wrong, and I don't appreciate the +3 to morale, but I prefer it when a creature deals twice as much damage, rather than when the bonus works a little subtly.
Nargott
It's only twice as much with a direct attack (not a counterattack), and even then, if they don't receive an intermediate counterattack that reduces the power of their second attack. In short, double strike is not even close to double damage, it's closer to one and a half times. You can argue that they shouldn't be attacked, and all counterattacks will be nullified, but the fact is that there is no reason to take minotaurs into a breakthrough, it's a waste of money, especially after reducing their increase, as in this mod. It's just meat that accumulates in the city to be bought out in the final stages of the game. Meat that is significantly weaker than furies, but whose role is not to deal damage, but simply to endure, thanks to its relatively high health. And in this regard, the alternative upgrade is better.
I also wrote about the 6-10 damage for the crossbowmen, but it seems it was ignored. :)
Minotaurs are very specific creatures, and the choice depends on personal preferences and play style. For example, I agree with Akula97, I also prefer the upgrade with double attack. Although the creature is quite slow, but with good damage and decent survivability, it is able not only to absorb counterattacks but also to deal significant damage. In your case, Nargott, the creature is considered only as "tank meat," which in turn gives its own tactical advantages, but reduces the army's offensive power.
I perceive this creature not only as a tank but also as a damage dealer. I can't say that you are wrong, Nargott, your strategy has its place, but I can't say that the entire tier 3 of the Dungeon is useless and only good for meat. It was significantly improved in the latest version.
For those who need a tank, there is an alternative upgrade (increased survivability + the ability to stun), and for those who need a damage dealer, there is an upgrade with double attack.
In addition, I will reveal a small secret: in the next version, the cost of building tier 3 creature structures will be slightly reduced for some factions (including the Dungeon), in order to increase the importance of tier 3 for those factions where they are not very relevant (in terms of economy).
can you change the trapper to give him a bow and arrows instead of a trap, and make a shooting animation?
All the necessary animations for shooting are already provided for the trapper – for obvious reasons (they sit in towers); all you have to do is set the number of shots. Giving units foreign models, animations, and the like is a dead end. I remember trying to give crossbowmen an arc shot – the result was disastrous: the game crashed when it was used. Although, that's probably a different story. I'm also interested in whether there are plans to adjust secondary skills and abilities in this mod. In particular, I'm interested in the "Banish" ability – I would like to restore its old, good percentage damage, but I don't know if it will be enough to just copy the text file from the vanilla version or if something more is needed.
NargottStatistics
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"Frozensoull"
I see this creature not only as a tank but also as a damage dealer. I can't say you're wrong, Nargott; your strategy has merit, but I can't bring myself to say that the entire 3rd tier of the Dungeon is useless and only good for cannon fodder. It was significantly buffed in the latest version.
I don't see any changes in the topic header where they were buffed:
-Minotaurs (basic). Health 35 (+4). Minor cosmetic changes
-Minotaur Guards (upgraded). Defense 4 (+2), Health 40 (+5). Minor cosmetic changes
-Minotaur Overseers (alternate upgrade). Defense 6 (+1), Health 45 (+5), +Stunning Strike. Minor cosmetic changes
+20% increased survivability of the upgraded creature only compensates for the 20% decrease in numbers (from 6 to 5), and the strike is accordingly weakened. The alternate upgrade has a weakened strike, but in return, it gained a stun. Perhaps, in this regard, it's not entirely a nerf, but the regular upgrade was weakened.
Furthermore, I'll reveal a small secret: in the next version, the cost of building 3rd-tier creature structures will be slightly reduced for some factions (including the Dungeon) to increase the importance of the 3rd tier for those factions where it is not particularly relevant (in terms of economy).
This won't change anything. The problem with minotaurs isn't that they aren't built; they are built to accumulate fodder and buy them for the endgame. Their problem is that they are a slow unit with weak initiative and not enough physical damage to compensate for it. They can't tank like, for example, dwarven shields. And where is their significant damage? Human alternate swordsmen have significant damage.
You probably don't understand how tournament players play. They don't buy all the fodder for the attack; they only take what is really valuable (real damage dealers or real tanks, if the latter are needed). Because it's profitable not to waste money on buying useless things that don't pay off. The presence of minotaurs in the army does not improve the quality of the attack; on the contrary, it can lead to unnecessary losses. But having upgraded harpies, griffins, hydras, and witches with spellcasters is invaluable.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
All the necessary animations for shooting are provided for the trapper – for obvious reasons (they sit on towers); all you have to do is set the number of shots for him. Adding foreign models and animations to units is a dead end.
Only the animation of throwing a piece of... earth... is provided for the trapper. But the point was to arm the creature with a bow, and there is definitely no such animation, so you can't do without workarounds. Although I believe that this change is meaningless from the point of view of mechanics and balance, although it could be implemented for fun, but not within the scope of this project. serovoy
I am also interested in whether the secondary skills and abilities are planned to be revised in this mod. In particular, I am interested in the "Banish" ability – I would like to return its old, good percentage damage, but I don't know if it will be enough to just copy the text file from the vanilla version or if something more is needed.
A complete rework of some talents and specializations is planned, for example, the skill of controlling war machines, as well as some spells. But in the near future, changes of this kind are unlikely to be introduced, because the main focus is still on the creatures. Nargott
The problem with minotaurs is not that they are not built – they are built to accumulate meat and buy them for the final stage. Their problem is that they are a slow unit with weak initiative and not strong enough physical attack to compensate for this. They cannot tank like dwarven shields, for example. And what kind of serious damage do they have? Human alt-swordsmen have serious damage.
I completely agree about speed and initiative; it is precisely because of these two parameters that the creatures lose some of their significance. In general, I really like how they are organized in a group of six, although their initiative is not high there either, but these are large creatures with good speed, strong damage, and survivability. However, there they act as creatures of tier 6 (or something like that), so all these qualities are combined very harmoniously. In tier 5, however, we have them as creatures of tier 3, and they are small in size...
As an option, you can increase the speed to 6 for the alt-upgrade, and increase the upgrade damage to 5-8 + speed to 6. Then the lack of initiative and damage in the upgrade will be compensated. Nargott
You probably don't understand how tournament players play. They don't buy all the meat for the attack, but only take what is really valuable (real damage dealers or real tanks, if the latter are needed). Because it is profitable not to spend money on buying useless things that do not pay off. The presence of minotaurs in the army does not improve the quality of the attack in any way, on the contrary, it can lead to unnecessary losses. But the presence of upgraded furries, griffins, hydras, and witches with cast spells is invaluable.
No, I perfectly understand the logic that tournament players use. But the modification is designed not only for the PvP aspect of the game, but also for PvE (and with a greater emphasis), so some changes have been made as a compromise between these aspects, so that all creatures can be used in each of them. As an example, I can cite the "Devouring Strike" ability of the Death Knights, which is very useful in PvP. It not only removes buffs but also guarantees to kill 1 creature, but at the same time it is practically useless in PvE, because the stack itself can inflict many times more damage with a regular attack, and buffs on neutrals and AI are rare. Based on all this, as a compromise, the Death Knights received destruction, which is very useful in PvE, and also has its "zest" in PvP. However, there are also disadvantages.
I am now thinking of returning the "Devouring Strike" to them and adding "Killing Blow". Then they will be useful in all directions. In addition, these abilities do not interact with each other, which is a plus. The result is this: if the enemy stack consists of many low-level creatures, it is better to hit with a regular attack and inflict additional damage from the "Killing Blow", and if the stack is high-level, then the "Devouring Strike" is used, which, as before, kills exactly 1 creature, without damage from the "Killing Blow". For now, this combination seems very promising to me, but I am also considering other options.
Frozensoull
