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In reply to Wicc
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#291
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Now let's consider the Luna question. As mentioned above, options for replacing starting skills will not be considered, but options for modifying damage are acceptable. However, we need to understand what specific change could produce a satisfactory effect.

The policy of HotATeam is that changes to standard functionality should be made rarely but precisely. Ideally, change it once and never touch it again. Therefore, before implementing anything, it is necessary to mentally model the consequences.

In Luna's case, some quantitative analysis is needed. It can be performed, for example, in the following manner:

1) A spectrum of typical Luna applications is described. For example, Griffin Conservatories of various sizes, hives, Zephyrs, Naga banks. Then typical guards of key map objects (Pandora's Boxes with 15K value, Relics with 20K value, ГО). A total of 10-20 types of fights.

2) Next, a table is compiled indicating the minimum required Spell Power for Luna for each of these objects. Comments on the capture technique may be necessary.

3) Then, a graph of Luna's SP growth per day is compiled. If it's difficult to estimate by eye, you can take a dozen or two tournament games as Luna and calculate the average statistics.

4) We compare step 2 with step 3 and obtain an averaged timeline of Luna's battle progression — for instance, mini-Griffin Conservatory on day 113, maxi-Naga bank on day 115, ГО from Necropolis at day 117 (numbers pulled out of thin air).

5) We make a similar estimation for Monere (it doesn't need to be as detailed; a rough assessment will suffice). For example, Monere comfortably clears a mini-Griffin Conservatory when Psychos become available, i.e., on day 115.

This is the descriptive part — "how it is now."

Next begins the comparative analysis of "how it could be" — a different Wall damage value is taken, the table is recalculated, the battle progression timeline is redrawn.

And this makes it clear what gameplay effect each proposal would yield — allowing an informed choice, rather than "well, I think 25% will be enough."
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#292
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There is no time to draw graphs, so here are 2 more suggestions:
1). Make the effect of the +50% spell permanent.
2). Make the spell enhancement effect depend on the hero's level. For example, 5-10% per level.
This way, nothing needs to be changed drastically, but Luna will slow down in her development, which is the main goal. All that remains is to find the right numbers so that she doesn't slow down so much that she becomes useless!


In reply to KobRa_RR
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#293
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KobRa_RR
The challenge is to find the right numbers so that it slows down, but not so much that it becomes useless!
This is the main difficulty.
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#294
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KobRa_RR
2). Implement a spell enhancement effect based on the hero's level.
A philosophical question: why isn't it already like that? Why does Kirr at level 30 perform so well, while Solmyr at level 30 barely has any effect? :confused:
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#295
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The biggest question is, for whom were these changes voiced (especially regarding the increased cost of control spells)? According to Vik, the target audience is people who play for fun in single-player mode while having a beer.

The most necessary change for tournament games is a rebalancing of the game mechanics. Strong players have been saying this endlessly. For this reason, some top players don't play HotA.
After dozens of pages of useless discussions, I haven't heard a single valid argument as to why this attribute can't be added with a checkbox for tournament games (this change doesn't affect casual players in any way).

Based on my experience of 15+ games, I've concluded that HotA in its current form can only be played on L-sized maps. On XL+U maps, the variance increases sharply due to the inability to obtain powerful artifacts/resources. Scrolls and shrines of level 4 don't guarantee their appearance in certain zones, and the game turns into a boring run around.

Regarding the Moon faction, I like the change to the special ability damage multiplier to 50%.

I also fully support Juby's suggestion to reduce the number of paths on the 6LM10A map. On SOD, this is currently the best XL+U map; on HotA, it definitely needs to be fixed, because in its current form, it's just a mess of running around.
In reply to FireToSky
#296
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FireToSky
The biggest question is, for whom were these changes voiced (especially regarding the increased cost of control spells). According to Vik, the target audience is people who play for fun in single-player mode while having a beer.

The most necessary change for tournament games is the restructuring of the game map. Strong players have been saying this endlessly. This is also why some top players don't play HotA.
After dozens of pages of useless discussions, I haven't heard a single valid argument as to why this attribute can't be added with a checkbox for tournament games (this change doesn't affect casual players in any way).

Based on my experience of 15+ games, I've concluded that HotA in its current form can only be played on L-shaped maps. On XL+U maps, the variance increases sharply due to the inability to obtain DD/TP. Scrolls and shrines of level 4 don't guarantee their appearance in certain zones, and the game turns into a boring run-around.

Regarding the Moon faction, I like the change to the special ability damage multiplier to 50%.

I also fully support Juby's suggestion to reduce the number of paths on the 6LM10A map. On SoD, this is currently the best XL+U map; on HotA, it definitely needs to be fixed, because in its current form, it's just a mess of run-and-gun gameplay.
I completely agree with everything written
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#297
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FireToSky
In dozens of pages of pointless discussions, I haven't heard a single valid argument as to why this attribute cannot be added as a checkbox for Tournament games (this change does not affect those who like to play casually).
If we are talking about exactly the same restructuring as in WT or HW_Rulez, then there are ideological reasons:

1. Introducing optional gameplay through "checkboxes" is highly undesirable. However, introducing optionality through template editing is acceptable.

2. Even if an optional element is introduced, it must be implemented qualitatively, integrated into the game mechanics and interface, and used by the AI. A feature that would look like a "crutch for online players" (which is exactly how the introduction of the WT or HW_Rulez restructuring would look), is unacceptable even as an option.

These points are not related to the target audience; they are simply details of the project concept. They are a given and do not require argumentation.

Nevertheless, the fact that restructuring is necessary for online play is, at least for me, obvious.

There may be other ways to implement the restructuring that solve the problem and meet all the requirements for the quality of implementation. Personally, I have already found such options, but so far they appeal to an insufficient part of the team to be able to talk about implementing the restructuring in the near future.


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Regarding 6lm10a, to make the conversation more specific, here are some options for modifying the paths that can be tested:

The Jubi-Juby option (plus, based on further comments, mandatory paths have been added to passages 9-10 and 13-14):


A more minimalist option, only the path chains 9-1-21-3 and 14-6-25-4 are made mandatory:


An interesting point about 6lm10a is that it has a passage from zone 13 to zone 13. Because of this, two identical teleports are generated in zone 13 (which teleport to each other within the zone).
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In reply to Sav
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#298
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Sav

Nevertheless, the fact that a rebuild is necessary for the online version is, at least to me, obvious.

So that's very good! :smile01: maybe we can somehow contact Wizard to use his similar developments for Soda? (Besides, I owe him for that time {even though Vic single-handedly changed the HotA rebuild mechanic, the work was still done} - I'm ready to pay in bulk, both for HotA))

Added 5 minutes later
I read Sav's post more carefully... Honestly, it's funny, or rather, not funny: who would be harmed by a checkbox in HW_Rules?? After all, this plugin is not used by anyone other than online players, since it is not included in the standard HotA set and can only be downloaded from our section.


#299
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The checkbox in HW_Rulez doesn't bother me personally. I didn't ask Wizard to remove it for Hota. And personally, I wouldn't mind if it appeared there.

However, ideally, it would be best to eventually make Hota self-sufficient, without requiring HW_Rulez to be included in the build – so the question of introducing an analogue of the restructuring in Hota remains (and after that, the checkbox could be removed).

Regarding the technical implementation, it's not very difficult to repeat what was done in HW_Rulez. It's more challenging to implement various details to make the implementation fit better into the mechanics, but that's not a critical problem either. So, it's unlikely that any external help would be useful here.
In reply to Sav
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#300
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Sav
The checkbox in HW_Rulez doesn't bother me personally. I didn't ask Wizard to remove it for Hota.

However, ideally, it would be good to eventually make Hota self-sufficient, without requiring the HW_Rulez assembly to be included – this doesn't negate the question of introducing a rebuild into Hota.

Regarding the technical implementation, it's not very difficult to repeat what was done in HW_Rulez. It's more difficult to implement various details to make the implementation fit better into the mechanics, but it's also not critically difficult.

I think the gaming community will be happy with any option that allows the rebuild to be implemented in the shortest way and with the least losses. This will probably attract new players, because currently, a different number of people sign up for similar tournaments in SoD and Hota; according to my estimates, twice as many people sign up for SoD as for Hota, but it could be 1.5 times as many, or even better statistics over time. It all depends on whether HotaTeam will continue to listen to the opinions of online players


In reply to Sav
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#301
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Sav

Regarding 6lm10a, to make the conversation more specific, here are some road modification options that can be tested:

The Jubi-Juby option (literally):


A more minimalist option, only the 9-1-21-3 and 14-6-25-4 road chains are made mandatory:


An interesting point about 6lm10a is that it has a passage from zone 13 to zone 13. Because of this, 2 identical teleporters are generated in zone 13 (which teleport to each other within the zone).

Sav, you're great! I just tested the 6lm10a option that I suggested. It turned out great! I really liked it. I'm ready to play this template with everyone who wants to, in order to identify any shortcomings. In my opinion, it's great that players get the same roads. Thanks again!
P.S. I'll look at the second option tomorrow. And now, I'm going to sleep.)
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#302
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I was also wondering why we don't just activate the rebuild for HotA in the HvR rules, while the team comes up with a super beautiful and super atmospheric solution. Casual players don't use HvR rules anyway, and their aesthetic sensibilities won't be offended by a makeshift rebuild, while the online community will be happy.
HoMM 3 HD:

последняя версия - 5.0 RC96 (19.09.2020)

последнее видео: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u70wC0DJ7I8

полное подробное описание
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#303
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Regarding the Moon faction, as an alternative, instead of reducing damage, remove the second wall, meaning only one structure can be on the battlefield? Then, conscripts won't be taken, and only the fatty, hydras, and wooden units will be burned, which makes the battle more challenging.
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#304
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YaR
Regarding the Moon, as an option, don't change the damage, but remove the second wall, i.e., only one unit can be on the battlefield? Then cons won't be taken, and only Giants, Hydras, and Wooden Golems will be burned, and the difficulty of such a battle will increase.

Exactly, that's not necessary.