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#120
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IronAxe;94191
On what basis is this considered a bug, and where is the guarantee that the AI won't use an attack on a mixed army and sometimes not lose, thereby removing upgraded units from the mixed army?
If we do this, it's purely intentional and should be punishable... If the AI does it, it's only due to its own stupidity and lack of knowledge... :D Let's not imitate it, shall we?
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In reply to AmberSoler
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#121
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AmberSoler;94300
If you and I do this, then it is exclusively intentional and should be punishable... If the computer does it, then only out of its own stupidity and ignorance... :D Let's not stoop to that level, shall we?
You call the situation of bypassing neutrals without a penalty a "feature" (although it is a bug), and as an argument that it is a feature, you claim that the computer uses it without any problems. In the situation of eliminating neutrals from a mixed army, you already contradict your own argument and call the computer's actions stupidity. When bypassing neutrals without a penalty, you also consciously swap units around, and this should be punishable; as for the computer using this bug, that is just its stupidity :) In other words—if bypassing neutrals without a penalty is a feature, then eliminating neutrals from a mixed army is also a feature. And if eliminating neutrals is a bug, then bypassing neutrals without a penalty is even more of a bug :) Otherwise, we need to study logic according to AmberSoler :)
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#122
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Dmitry_A_S;94212
You are a bit confused...
In the first case, you really do have to kill the entire group of neutrals, even if by repeatedly attacking the last ones. That is, systematically killing all groups.
In the second case, only the unupgraded neutral units are killed, we flee, and the entire neutral group disappears from sight. Thus, in this case, the upgraded stacks are obtained "for free," and that is not good.
And the tactics end up being completely different, not identical, as you claim.
I am not claiming at all that by weakening I will take out even one stack, in either the first or the second case. It is enough for me to blast a couple of times with Chain Lightning or Meteor Shower or Armageddon. And flee or die. In the first case, the neutral's army will be weakened only by the number of those killed; in the second case, the upgraded ones will all disappear — have I understood this point correctly or not? If yes, then so what? They are upgraded — they are smarter :) Therefore, they understand that the artillery preparation was not accidental — so they need to get the hell out, or else it will be worse. In this case, the player resolves the situation for themselves — either use artillery preparation, but lose leveling points for the main hero and at least 2500 gold, or not use artillery preparation, but get full leveling from the battle and not lose 2500 gold.
In principle, it seems illogical to me that carrying a neutral without penalty is allowed (and this is clearly a bug). Moreover, by using it, the player in the game suffers no material losses, unlike using the neutral elimination trick (here they do suffer material losses for it, see above). Nevertheless, this trick is banned. If we look at the big picture, then either both of these tricks should be allowed, or both of these bugs should be banned :)
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#123
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IronAxe;94322

If you look at the bigger picture, either both of these features should be allowed, or both of these bugs should be prohibited.

It's up to the organizers to decide. I think it's... not by chance, as old Winnie-the-Pooh would say. Perhaps there's a practice on other portals.
But in any case, both of these points are equally difficult to check in a tournament. And besides, even if they are mutually excluded, there are still more than enough tactical subtleties in Heroes 3.
Therefore, I take it calmly - in the end, everyone is in equal conditions.
DmitriyAS

Кто сильнее или шаблон для сравнения городов по силе.
Различие офф-лайна в Heroes II и Heroes III.
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#124
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Dmitry_A_S;94334
It's up to the organizers. I think this is... not accidental, as Winnie-the-Pooh would say.
:) I absolutely agree with that. But then they shouldn't justify their bans with some far-fetched arguments, but simply state - we are the organizers, we want it this way, and that's it. Otherwise, they start arguing that something is a feature, and something else is a bug :)
Dmitry_A_S;94334

Perhaps, there is a practice on other portals.
Or maybe they simply take the rules from other portals as a basis, and if you ask the organizers why they consider this a bug and that a feature, you will get approximately the same answer with a reference to the practice of even MORE other portals.
Dmitry_A_S;94334

But in any case, both of these aspects are equally difficult to check in a tournament.
I agree, but then, logically, they should both be ALLOWED for everyone to use, at least to avoid the difficulty of checking.
Dmitry_A_S;94334

And besides, even if they are mutually exclusive, there are more than enough tactical tricks in Heroes 3 without them.
I agree.
Dmitry_A_S;94334

And therefore, I take it calmly - in the end, everyone is in equal conditions.
I understand that when permissions and prohibitions are announced for everyone, then everyone will be in equal conditions who read them. There are no problems with this - Kyle has well described the rules for off-map in Heroes 3. I just pointed out the logical inconsistency of what they allowed and what they prohibited. Although I understand that this is the right of the organizer. But I am also not forbidden to express my opinion, moreover, Kyle himself suggests making statements about the rules in this topic. But if we take the position that the organizer will do what he wants and everyone agrees with this position, then what is the point of this "Tournament Troubles" topic and what is the point of calling on organizers to express their opinions on the rules in this topic? I have more than convincingly shown that both of the discussed tricks are bugs. However, nothing prevents us from calling them features. But when one of them is called a bug, and the other a feature, and at the same time they cannot provide any convincing arguments for and against, then one can only be surprised by the organizers' logical twists.
In reply to IronAxe
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#125
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Ley;94449
Well, for example, when you were arguing with AmberSoler about "features" and "bugs." That's ridiculous. AmberSoler made it perfectly clear what, how, and why. Even a child can understand how to distinguish between these two incomparable things, but you argued until the very end.
:) He didn't explain anything. Both situations are bugs, and many people understand that. But for some reason, one situation is considered a feature, while the other is still considered a bug. And if you don't understand it yourself, don't accuse others of being stupid.
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#126
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IronAxe;94505
:) He didn't explain anything. Both situations are bugs, and many people understand that. But for some reason, one situation is considered a feature, while the other is still considered a bug. And if you don't understand it yourself, don't accuse others of being stupid.
The AI never uses the attack/retreat tactic against neutral creatures. So, multidefeat is a bug.
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#127
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AmberSoler;94529
The AI never uses the attack/retreat tactic against neutrals. Therefore, multidefeat is a bug. And let's not flood this thread. If you want to hold a post-mortem, create a separate thread and discuss bugs there to your heart's content.
The AI sometimes uses the "attacked and died against a neutral" tactic — what? That doesn't happen? I've seen computer heroes crash against neutrals myself, and if there is a mixed army, then by your definition, the upgraded ones will flee. Tell me honestly — does this happen or not? And if it does, it means the AI uses this tactic, and you are lying again :) So it's still unknown who is flooding here, and now you're trying to send me off to some god-knows-where thread :) because you have no counter-argument. All your excuses are crooked :)

To Kyle: I don't quite remember if I signed up for blitz-3 or not, but I see that I am in the table. I will probably still manage to send the save tomorrow, which is already this evening.
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#128
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IronAxe;94582
The AI sometimes uses the tactic of attacking and sacrificing units against neutrals – is that impossible? I've seen computer-controlled heroes get destroyed by neutrals, and if there's a mixed army, then according to your definition, the upgraded units will retreat. Be honest – does this happen or not? And if it does, then it means the AI is using this tactic, and you're lying again :) So, it's unclear who's actually spamming here, and now you're trying to redirect me to who knows what topic because you have nothing to counter with. All your excuses are weak :)
Yes, the AI sometimes gets destroyed by neutrals, and in that case, I believe the neutral loses its upgraded stack.
But: the AI doesn't have the goal of weakening the neutrals in order to defeat them with smaller forces later! It just got destroyed and forgot where it happened, so the AI isn't exploiting a bug – don't confuse the concepts. It just randomly does what we try to do consciously, and there's no benefit for it from this action. This is what I call the AI's stupidity... :)

As for "pushing neutrals" – the AI, even if accidentally, uses this trick to its advantage – it works perfectly. That's why we don't ban it. This topic has already been thoroughly discussed on other forums... I'm not interested in explaining it a hundred times – if you don't understand the difference between "using" and "not using," I can't help you.
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#129
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AmberSoler;94585
Yes, the AI sometimes crashes into neutrals, and in that case, I believe the neutral loses its upgraded stack.
But: the AI has no goal to weaken the neutrals in order to wipe them out with small forces later! It simply crashed and forgot where it did so, and therefore the AI is not using the bug—don't twist the words.
Who is twisting the words? First you said the AI doesn't use it, now you say it sometimes uses it, but without benefit to itself. Did you calculate its benefit? Once it attacked and forgot, but another time it might attack there again and not forget. And what about the situation where the computer accidentally helps one player but not another—doesn't the factor of luck/misfortune for real players kick in here? The player whom the computer does not help will be forced to bash through an additional stack of upgraded troops, while the one it helps no longer needs to do that. And if the feature were allowed, the second player could have tried to weaken that army themselves since they were unlucky with the AI's behavior. And what do you mean the AI "doesn't use the bug"? It attacks, it dies, the upgraded stack disappears—what else is needed? That stack cannot be recovered. And someone will still wipe out that weakened army—either the AI itself or a human player.
AmberSoler;94585

It just randomly does what we try to do consciously, and there is no benefit from this action for it. That's exactly what I called the AI's stupidity... :)
Yeah, and you want to paint everyone with the same brush and make them just as stupid as the AI :) Even if it's unconscious, even if it's a fool, the AI can still benefit from this action. It cannot be stated for certain that there is no benefit for the AI. Firstly, it always has endless money and losing 2500 is probably irrelevant to it; secondly, there's no guarantee it won't charge in the same direction with another hero. Moreover, I pointed out above that the AI can accidentally help someone :) Admit it, for the person it doesn't help, it's surely easier to weaken the army themselves than to make the AI dance to their tune. Now we have a concrete random inequality between real players (lucky/unlucky). And the fewer random factors influencing the result, the better it probably would be. Because if everyone is allowed to use the army weakening, NOTHING will change. All players will remain on equal footing, only even more equal than with this ban :)
AmberSoler;94585

As for "neutral rushing" — the AI, even if by accident, uses this trick to its own benefit — it works a hundred percent. That's why we don't ban it.
Right—if a bug works a hundred percent, then it's a feature :)) The trick with weakening troops will also work a hundred percent if it's allowed. Only then will there be more chances to avoid the accidental influence of the AI on this process.
AmberSoler;94585

This topic was settled long ago on other resources... I
I don't care about other resources. Did they settle it the same way you are settling it?
AmberSoler;94585

have no interest in explaining this a hundred times—if you don't understand the exact difference between the concepts of "using" and "not using," then there's nothing I can do to help.
You didn't explain anything :) You are the one who doesn't understand the difference between "using" and "not using." I'll explain slowly: if the event occurred and the stack vanished, the computer HAS ALREADY used this bug, whether intentionally or accidentally, on purpose or by mistake, for its own benefit or not :) Even Bill Gates and Kanigem probably couldn't answer that :)) And this event can introduce imbalance when different players play the same map, and they have no particular desire to figure out why the AI weakened an army for one person but not for another on the same map from the same starting save. Give the player the opportunity to control the situation themselves during the playthrough without taking into account the errors in the stupid AI's behavior!!!
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#130
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AmberSoler;95050
Well, as an option, after you hire the last possible hero and he completes his turn, you can save and send your save file to the host... This will be your result... And what ELSE can be done here without violating the rules? Only optimize movement so that there are enough heroes... And we all already know how to do that... :)
He probably meant whether it is possible to hire a dismissed hero, BUT NOT ON THE SAME DAY, BUT ON THE NEXT DAY :) Look at how the restrictions change from tournament to tournament :)
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the third stage of Kanigem - a ban from VDV:
7. It is forbidden: to buy back your dismissed heroes on the same day (i.e., to use the "dismissal-buyback" trick);
it is also forbidden to buy heroes who died in battle (do not confuse with those who fled)!
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blitz tournaments - a ban from AmberSoler and Kyle
- it is forbidden to use the "dismissal-buyback" trick, i.e., a dismissed Hero cannot be hired
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So, interpret it as you like :) Although these tournaments are played with one version of heroes.
This ban was justified by the fact that a dismissed hero will fully restore his turn, as far as I understand, and it turns out that on the same day he will have a full turn again. But on what basis can I not buy a hero on the current turn who was dismissed on the previous turn???
He would have a full turn anyway, whether he was with me on the previous turn and was dismissed, or whether he was not with me at all on the previous turn. According to AmberSoler, it works 100% - which means it's a feature. Therefore, the ban from VDV is formulated correctly, and yours is not very well. Well, what can you do, the boss is the boss :)
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#131
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IronAxe;95093
Therefore, the ban formulated by VDV is correct, but yours is not very well. Well, what can you do, the boss is the boss :)
VDV’s formulation is more accurate, I agree. We will correct it...
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#132
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AmberSoler;95112
VDV's wording is more accurate, I agree. We'll correct it...
Then I'll ask an additional question right away. What should be done with the defeated heroes, because I don't understand either your rules or VDV's :) VDV wrote like this:

7. It is forbidden to: redeem your dismissed heroes on the same day (i.e., use the "dismissal-redemption" trick);
it is also forbidden to buy heroes who died in battle (do not confuse with those who fled)!

Does he mean that heroes who died in battle also cannot be redeemed on THIS TURN, but can be redeemed on the NEXT turn? How will it be in your rules?
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#133
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So, if I understand correctly, I have the full right to buy the dismissed unit tomorrow?
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#134
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Kamikaze;95160
So, if I understand correctly, I have the full right to buy a hero who is about to be dismissed tomorrow?
I don't understand why it has to be tomorrow and not today. You can probably do it today too – the only difference is that they won't be able to move anymore. I think the same applies to a slain hero. It's like dismissing them, but better. They'll immediately end up in the tavern. It's also unclear whether you can buy back a slain hero – your own, an enemy's, or both. If they say that no one ever kills their own hero in online games, don't believe them. It might turn out that you want to escape, but you can't, and you desperately need that hero in your castle for the next turn. But you can't escape because you only have fast neutral creatures or fast ranged units nearby, and you only have one slow unit in your slots, so you won't be able to escape. The only good option is to die. The second option is to dismiss them, but that's worse. And then there are ambiguities with the rules. I agree that you can't buy an overpowered enemy hero, especially if you didn't kill them. But if you did kill them, then you have every right to buy them, even on the same turn, and use them immediately. My reasoning:
1. If you have the right to buy them, then why give shackles in the game? Answer: To capture them and make them work for you. I'm even in favor of being able to buy back an enemy hero who escaped from you, but only if they escaped from you specifically – otherwise, it might turn out that you wasted your troops on them, and not attacking them was a mistake. It's also bad if they hang around your castle and prevent you from developing.
2. The fact that they moved doesn't matter to you – they didn't move under your control. Or maybe the computer moves after you, and this hero hasn't moved yet.
3. If you buy back your slain hero on the turn they died, then, of course, you can't use them on that turn.

The rules are written in such a simplified way to avoid having to deal with checks, in my opinion, so it's not clear what, how, and why. :)

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Kyle: Please refrain from personal attacks!