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It's a shame that, apart from this topic, which has become quite tiresome, no one is contributing anything worthwhile.
Bring back Aripatru! :smile29:
Bring back Aripatru! :smile29:
Aiwe
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Aiwe
Wicc
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The point is that a whole (rather long) series of facts from the history of offline Heroes tournaments is presented, where there were situations absolutely identical to this one. But "smart people" have somehow focused only on me. Did no one read anything? Moreover, in my case, the whole fuss is because of a match that shouldn't have happened at all, because the winner shouldn't play against the loser in principle, and which was played on a template that was NOT regulated by the tournament. Based on all the facts, I perceive all the attacks on this issue as personal dislike towards me or as simple human stupidity and an inability to think analytically.
Lider1
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Nagan's post was essentially constructive, while your post was simply an insult, which Nitro inexplicably didn't remove.
Personally, I could have left everything as is, but since the insults have started, let's be consistent.
Where did you see any insults? Even a single offensive word? This is just an opinion! It's a well-deserved tribute to the king.
A loud name doesn't elevate, but rather diminishes someone who is not worthy to bear it with honor.
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
Redwhait
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I think the reason here is purely financial. If Redi had said something like, "Oh, I don't feel like arguing over the split for 2nd place, let Lizard go ahead," this episode would have gone unnoticed.
Lider1
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I suggest that the admins start deleting (or giving penalty points for) posts on this topic. Starting with Nagan's post. Thank you.
Great idea! They've created a lot of spam in the forum. Look at that.
Maybe they should give moderator rights to the shining one right away?
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
Sanin
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I think the reason here is purely financial. If Redi had said something like, "Oh, I don't feel like arguing over splitting the prize for 2nd place, let Lizard go ahead," this episode would have gone unnoticed.
In the situations you described, the match was either given away without any play at all, or in a situation of prolonged haggling with an unclear outcome. I can immediately recall a similar episode at m200 in February 2015 in St. Petersburg, when Napalm let Cobra into the winners' final without a fight. But without a fight!
And Lizard bought a game that was practically already lost. Now, many are pretending that nothing happened (and I am too), and what else can be done?
But the value of such a championship is demonstrably lower than that of the previous CIS champions.
ICQ 423164784
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Something reminded me:
Episode #1.
January 2013, Moscow, a club championship hosted by Nagan. My friend and I celebrated the results of the first round so well that we couldn't participate in the second round due to our health. Nagan tried to wake us up, and I even woke up and, to avoid disrupting the tournament schedule, suggested that we and my friend be randomly assigned in the second round, with the comment, "We'll figure out who goes further."
Nagan agreed without any problems, and the other participants were also aware, but no one raised any objections. Because this is a common practice in club tournaments.
I'm just curious - if my friend or I had won the tournament, would Nagan complain that the champion is illegitimate, that they won through collusion, etc.?
Episode #2
May 2012, Yekaterinburg, CIS Championship.
In the first round, one player is missing to complete the bracket. Bloodliger registers (and pays the entry fee) with the condition that he will be paired with Stinger in the first round. After that, he forfeits without playing. No one has any objections.
And Stinger eventually becomes the champion.
Nagan, do you think it's worth reconsidering your attitude towards Stinger's championship?
Episode #3
January 2011, Kingisepp, qualifier for the CIS-2011 tournament in Michurinsk.
In the semi-finals, I played against Cobra. After about a month of playing on Jebb, the situation was somewhere between a stalemate and a long, drawn-out game. It was already 5 a.m., everyone was tired, and I suggested to Cobra that I concede the victory to him for a certain percentage of the prize money if Cobra wins the tournament. Cobra agreed, the organizer (Napalm) didn't object, and the spectators agreed too. Cobra eventually won the tournament.
I suggest that, in light of the newly revealed circumstances, Cobra's silver medal for the CIS-11 should be annulled, and the entire tournament should be annulled due to the judge's misconduct. Eric, what do you think?
You don't see the difference between a fun tournament and a tournament that determines the best player. Regarding January 2013 in Moscow, that's why I stopped organizing tournaments, because you practically ruined the last one. You and Matrosov, at some point, told me that you would play together. I wasn't feeling well, but unlike you, I wasn't drunk; I was actually running a fever. I didn't have the energy to argue, so I just let it go. Anyone who was at the Moscow tournament can confirm this. I'm not excusing myself, unlike the new CIS champion.
Added 16 minutes ago
I'll continue...
Episode #4
January 2013, Moscow, the same long-suffering championship hosted by Nagan. In the semi-finals, there were 3 winners and 1 loser (Nagan). Does that sound familiar?
Pit won his semi-final, and Nagan played against Vitalik for 3 weeks without any interaction, and he thought, "Why should I bother? I'm not going to win anyway," and he let Vitalik into the final. It happens...
Episode #5
May 2013, Odessa, CIS Championship. In the first round, Preds and Scorpion played. After about 5 weeks, they got tired of playing, and the round's deadline was approaching, so they asked me to set a temporary draw for them so that they could finish the first round during the second. The next day, I see that they are not playing, so I ask what's going on. They say that they agreed that if Scorpion wins the second round, Preds will give him the victory in the first.
As a result, Scorpion made it into the shared second place. I think we'll forgive him for that, but he should return three thousand of the prize money.
Episode #6
January 2009, Kingisepp. Mixed tournament, random + fixed heroes.
In the second round, Doberman is paired with Napalm, and they play a fixed game - Land of Magic. Doberman says, "Guys, I haven't even played this LoM, let Wicc play for me." So I played, and I won. And Doberman ended up in the shared second place.
I can't find the old thread about that tournament, but you can read there that there was a draw, and I was paired with Vitalik. Ask Mizrael and Scorpion, they will tell you that I would have played against Vitalik for many reasons, but I couldn't play well with a fever. But I didn't give or take any money. There were dozens of games where a player forfeited before the final battle, but there was never a case where, in a winning situation, someone took money.
Added 32 minutes ago
I'm saying that the situation with match-fixing is somewhat similar to the situation with corruption - those with the dirtiest hands shout the loudest, and if they don't, it's only because they haven't had the opportunity.
Many people like to refer to professional sports, but there any of the episodes I described would lead to the disqualification of both players.
Therefore, there is no need to pretend to be Mother Teresa, but to admit that Heroes has its own specifics, and if there is a desire to change this specificity, then it should be done through the regulations, and not through principles. Because, according to principles, the actions of Lizard and Redi are quite consistent with the customs of Heroes tournament practice.
Imagine, there's a Heroes championship, a round starts, and someone says: "Guys, today I'll try to win fairly, but if I start losing, I'll buy the result because I need the main prize, I need the money, it's all normal, that's the custom."
Do you think everyone will say to him, "Sure, buy it! We don't need the money, and we don't need to win the tournament either." No, there will be a huge scandal, at best.
Now they are boasting that they needed the money. But what if the other players also came into debt, and the prize money was just as important to them? Or was a survey conducted to see who needed it and who didn't?
I can imagine the reason for such a conspiracy: many players have ambition that overshadows common sense. But if they were caught, they should definitely apologize, repent, and return the money, remaining with a tarnished reputation as a player. But this was said very well: "...yes, Zhenya, I'm sure. Moreover, I came to the championship with a suitcase full of canned food, and the only way to pay off my debts and continue a normal life was to win the championship... "Could many people "justify" themselves in such a situation? I don't think so..."
And finally, a brilliant "...The champion can endure everything..."
Yes, there is no rule in Heroes that says you can't give money to your opponent. And in any other sport, there is no such rule either, because in any country in the world, there is legislation on fraud.
I understand that a lot of time has passed, but it turned out to be extremely unfair.
Wicc
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I took 3rd place in a poker tournament :cool: and I had a decent amount of money, I don't know why you're bringing all this up. And it's not very pleasant to read this, so everyone who wasn't on SNG can just go away.
After losing in the first round, there wasn't much motivation, and streaming (playing poker, drinking beer) was a more interesting option, so money didn't play a role at all.
Wicc
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In the situations you described, the match was either forfeited without any play or resulted in a long, drawn-out stalemate with an unclear outcome. I can immediately recall a similar episode at M200 in February 2015 in St. Petersburg, when Napalm let Cobra win in the winners' final without a fight. But it was without a fight!
And Lizard bought a game that was practically already lost. Now, many are pretending that nothing happened (and I am too), and what else can be done?
But the value of such a championship is demonstrably lower than that of previous CIS champions.
Try to at least roughly formulate a concept of rules that would legalize episodes #1-6 but prohibit episode #0.
Wicc
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Regarding the January 2013 tournament in Moscow, that's largely why I stopped organizing tournaments, because you essentially ruined the last one. You and Matrosov, at some point, told me that you would play together, as a team.
Initially, I was going to the tournament with an unclear status, either as a player or as a spectator. I didn't really want to play, because of the SoD rules, and the selection of templates wasn't great. When I arrived, I saw that there weren't many people, and I signed up to ensure there were enough players, while also complaining that no one plays XL+U here.
Apparently, this wish suited you, and you drew us for the first round. I played lm10 with interest, without any sabotage.
What happened in the second round, I've already described.
Before the third round, we discussed with Matroskin who should advance, and I said that they would probably put me against Jebusnyu, and I can't even stand playing against him in VT. So, I let Matroskin advance, and I limited myself to the role of a coach. By "playing together," I meant that you shouldn't interfere with me coaching Matrosov (you never know what kind of annoying people might show up).
Where is the tournament disruption here? I stuck to the schedule, didn't create any controversial situations, and increased the number of players.
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This sounds very hypocritical. Like, match-fixing is not allowed, but if it's for free, or in a neutral situation, or at 5 a.m., then it's okay, right?
Try to at least roughly formulate a concept of rules that would legalize episodes #1-6, but prohibit episode #0.
Let's not confuse the issues. The rules of Heroes tournaments have never had and do not have legitimacy anywhere except in our small Heroes world. If we had a federation, like in football or chess, then there would be a principle, as you said, "...a concept of rules that would legalize episodes...", and lawyers would work on these rules, getting good money for it. But no one can do anything about match-fixing, even in football. But if a "Tom" football player shouts to the opponent's goalkeeper, "I'll give you 100 thousand if you let a goal in..." and then tells the newspapers that it was necessary to score a goal and stay in the top league, otherwise there is no money, he will have big problems with the law.
Our Heroes world is fun, but there are certain human norms that should not be violated. Otherwise, tomorrow some specific guy will come with a knife and become the champion, take the money, because the rules do not say that it is impossible to wave a knife under the opponent's nose, "yes, he waved a pen, but he really respected him and played fairly" :smile30: That is, these moments have always been up to the judge's discretion in Heroes. Of course, if someone wants to lose, he will lose - he will lose to the main hero with one infantry unit in the Hive, he will let the loser defeat his entire army, this cannot be fought. But doing this in public, not denying the fact that they were dividing other people's money among themselves, is not okay. And the problem is not really about the money, it's just disgusting how brazenly they boast about it.
Added 8 minutes later
I'll give the medal, but only in exchange for a crossbow))))
Tem, finally become the CIS champion, I promise, I'll bring you an even better crossbow, with the engraving "finally" :smile14:
Wicc
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I definitely agree with the statement, "if you want to pee in the pool, don't do it from the high dive."
KobRa_RR
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Ideally, and honestly speaking, a strict rule should be included in the regulations for future (official or otherwise) tournaments: pre-arranged results (including draws) are prohibited. Only the judge can award a draw. In case of violation, both players will be disqualified for one year.
Intentional losing is also punishable upon detection. (either the player who lost, or if there is evidence of a deliberate agreement).
And I suggest we close the topic here.
Intentional losing is also punishable upon detection. (either the player who lost, or if there is evidence of a deliberate agreement).
And I suggest we close the topic here.
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Ideally, and honestly, the rules for future (official or otherwise) tournaments should include an absolute rule: pre-arranged results (including draws) are prohibited. Only the judge can declare a draw. Violation results in a one-year disqualification for both players.
Intentional losing is also punishable upon detection (of the player who lost, or if there is evidence of a deliberate agreement).
And I suggest we close the topic here.
And pre-arranged losses are impossible to track unless they are done demonstrably, especially online.
discord: LuckyF#3482
icq: 681350680
icq: 681350680
Aiwe
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Well, in online play, this can be easily resolved – allow draws, and simply award 3 points for a win and 1 point for a draw. As for offline play, a game must be played, although this won’t completely prevent match-fixing.
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