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In reply to Juristis
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#7111
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Juristis
But it plays quickly. And the imbalance isn't that extreme. In HL+U, luck plays just as much a role, if not more. This is Heroes, after all; very few games depend on skill. It's better to lose in 2 weeks due to bad luck than in 2 months.
I completely agree with this point of view. I would also add that HL+U is very dependent on the road network, which is not often equally distributed, and sometimes even makes an early encounter on the second week a one-sided affair for one of the players. And the infamous "late-game matches" are often doomed due to the inability to gain control for one player or the early, easy opportunity for another.
In reply to Dirty_Player
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#7112
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The argument that "it can go either way" is just an excuse. Because even if you get an "uneven" starting position from the draft, you still need to be able to capitalize on it. And that becomes more difficult the more decisions you have to make during the game. Therefore, the more tactical and strategic actions a template has, the more "papal" it is. Simply put, if you give a less skilled player a more powerful starting army, their lead over a more skilled player will be greater over 10 battles than over 20 battles. The Balance template is quite simple in terms of gameplay tactics; there aren't many opportunities to demonstrate skill, so the draft matters much more than on more complex templates. In other words, there isn't enough time for the less skilled player to make enough mistakes to turn the situation around.
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#7113
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Wicc
Simply put, if you give a less skilled player a more powerful starting army, the gap between them and a more skilled player will be greater after 10 battles than after 20 battles.

The Balance template is quite simple in terms of gameplay tactics; there are few opportunities to demonstrate skill, so the initial distribution matters much more than on more complex templates. In other words, there isn't enough time for the less skilled player to make enough mistakes to turn the situation around.
Have you considered that on smaller templates, the cost of a mistake is much higher? If losing even a single unit can be critical on small templates, on XL templates, people often lose everything but still have a chance to win. Furthermore, on XL templates, the guards are weaker, and there's an opportunity to quickly scout and start collecting resources from the easiest sources.

Of course, when the game enters the late stage, you need to perform many actions with different heroes in a limited time – this is where you can show skill, but such situations don't occur as often as fans of these templates claim.
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#7114
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Dirty_Player
Have you not considered that on small templates, the cost of a mistake is much higher?
It makes sense to consider the cost of a mistake where there is a significant probability of making one.

At the moment, practically everyone has learned how to clear the starting respawn on standard templates, as well as how to take cons-hives-Dragon Utopia.

Therefore, the room for mistakes (and opportunities) has moved slightly further—into the technique of developing distant territories, clearing with spoons, leveling up several papas, army splitting, etc.

On Balance, almost none of this toolkit is used as it's unnecessary—after initial scouting, you plot the papa's trajectory through tasty objects and execute it without much fuss. There is some room for Creation in attacking off-road or in choosing the time to go into a treasure run. But here, general game intuition is needed more than own "straightness of hands."
In reply to Wicc
#7115
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Wicc
The cost of an error only makes sense to consider where there is a significant probability of making one.

At the moment, practically everyone has learned how to clear the starting respawn on standard templates, as well as how to take cons-hives-Dragon Utopia.

Therefore, the room for errors (and opportunities) has shifted slightly further—into the technique of developing distant territories, clearing with spoons, leveling up several pops, army splitting, etc.

In Balance, almost none of these tools are used as they are unnecessary—after initial scouting, you map out the pop's trajectory through tasty objectives and implement it without much fuss. There is some room for Creation in attacking off-road or in choosing the time to head into a treasure hunt. But here, general game intuition is needed more than own-hand dexterity.
Completely agree
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#7116
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Wicc
Therefore, the room for error (and opportunity) has shifted a bit further — into the technique of exploring distant territories, clearing with spoons, leveling up several stacks, army splitting, etc.
This only looks beautiful on paper. In reality, it all comes down to
Wicc
taking cons-hives-Dragon Utopias.
, and moreover, the resources for taking these on HLs are much easier to obtain.
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#7117
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It doesn't matter whether it's easier or not. What matters is the gap between the ideal execution of a given setup and the execution by an average player. The larger this gap, the greater the room for skill, meaning the closer the execution gets to the ideal.

On Balance, playing a setup ideally is much easier than on XL+U. Even if that playthrough turns out slower.

Example: if at your respawn you have virtually nothing and a maxed-out Griffin Conservatory on the only road to GO, then the plan is obvious — scavenge around the respawn for 2 weeks, run Papa around the upgrade huts, break into the Conservatory on 131 with the growth, and immediately take GO. Even some Novice participants can pull this off. But a similar situation on XL+U will result in papas trying to find a way to break the Conservatory on the 2nd. And they'll most likely find it. Moreover, someone will break it on 126, and someone else on 125. That is, the range of options for improving your game is significantly wider, allowing skill to shine.
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#7118
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Wicc

Therefore, the room for error (and opportunity) has shifted a bit further—into the technique of exploring distant territories, clearing with spoons, leveling up several pops, army splitting, etc.
These are all elementary things that don't actually mean much. On XL+U, only 2 things truly matter: road junctions and the speed of obtaining control. On smaller maps, roads matter significantly less, and control is often banned. This brings to the forefront the ability to fight clean battles, efficient distribution of resources and heroes, and the ability to deviate from the standard XL+U strategy—level up a warrior (preferably a Logistician), take cons-hives-Dragon Utopia, get control, burn-kill-take cities. Here, you can also play into magic, and there is a choice between going for the treasure zone or consuming villages. But most importantly—there is no cheat-like control that ruins the game, but without which XL+U cannot be played.

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Wicc

Example—if you have nothing on your respawn and a maxi-con at the only road to ГО, then the plan is obvious—spend 2 weeks scavenging around the respawn, running the pop through boosters, and on 131 with growth, rush the con and immediately to ГО. Even some participants of "Novice" could execute this. But a similar situation on XL+U would lead to pops trying to find a way to break the con on the 2nd week. And they most likely will. Moreover, someone will break it at 126, while another at 125. That is, the spectrum of options for intensifying the game is significantly larger, allowing skill to be shown.
Lol. Have you played this map? Balance is not Jebus Cross; here you can move to the center without breaking through ГО. And sitting there, consuming boosters for 2 weeks and waiting for growth to break 4 angels—that is a path to defeat. In general, on Balance, ГО is not 45k and it can be broken almost always on the 2nd week.
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#7119
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The lawyer makes a valid point. Having considered the responses above, I note that there are no overpowered units or even Major artifacts in the balance.
And the games I managed to play on this balance this year were some of the most interesting, especially with The_, where I took a third-level Griffin Conservatory on 123 as Inferno, and Necropolis, and a war of weaklings, and leveled up 4 heroes, and by the end of the game switched from a warrior daddy to a mage daddy and lost the game because the opponent killed the hero with the Crown of +4 Knowledge closer to the end.

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#7120
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Wicc
It doesn't matter whether it's easier or not. What matters is the gap between the perfect execution of a setup and the execution by an average player. The larger this gap, the more room there is for skill, i.e., bringing the execution closer to perfection.

On Balance, it's much easier to execute a setup perfectly than on XL+U. Even if that execution ends up being slower.
But I believe that on XL+U you can often play sloppily and still win, because you have a Dragon Utopia with control right next to you, and even if you take it 2 days later than ideal, it will often work out.
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#7121
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Juristis
Lol. Have you played this map?
I once played a tournament on Balance, without any losses (reached the final, then withdrew). I formed a very definite opinion - 90% of the map generations are heavily biased in one direction, and exploiting the advantage is not difficult even for an average player. And we were playing XL-Balance, so I think it's even worse on L-Balance.

Even a CM map requires more skill.
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#7122
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Wicc
I once played a tournament on Balance, going undefeated (reaching the final, then withdrawing). I formed a very definite opinion: 90% of the maps are heavily skewed in one direction, and exploiting that advantage is not difficult even for an average player. And this was on XL Balance; I think it's even worse on L Balance.

Even Chaos Maps are much more demanding in terms of skill.
I've never played XL Balance properly, only tried a couple of maps, and it seemed like a bad decision. And M Balance is also not good. But I think L Balance is quite playable, and choosing between it and XL+U, I would choose Balance in all cases (unless 6lm10a might make me think twice; in that case, I would base my decision on the opponent). The games I played on Balance were often close, the finals were tense and exciting, and many times the final didn't end the game, but turned into a war of resources and income. Chaos Maps, in my opinion, is also a good map type, and if I were to compare, it's better than Balance and better than any XL with underground.
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ICQ - 488-784-621, skype - juristis18

Весна 2014.
In reply to Dirty_Player
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#7123
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Dirty_Player
I believe that on XL+U you can often just mess around and still win, because you have a Dragon Utopia with control right next to you, and even if you take it 2 days later than ideal, it often works out.
Anything can happen. The question is the percentage of such scenarios. On XL+U, one-sided layouts are significantly less common than on smaller templates. It's actually surprising that someone would argue with this obvious fact.
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#7124
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Juristis
The games I played with balanced factions often came down to the wire, the finales were tense and exciting, and more than once, the finale didn't end the game, but turned into a war of attrition and income.
You got lucky, then. Judging by public opinion, most players have the opposite statistics.
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#7125
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Wicc
Well, they got lucky. Judging by public opinion, most players have the opposite statistics.
The question is, how competent is this majority? I believe this is the same majority that defends the idea that "HL+U are the best templates" and loves games that last only 2-3 months. I trust my own experience more than these "true pros." Among them, there are certainly some good players, but their love for HL makes their minds rigid and unable to understand the specifics of small templates. They lose a few games, get upset, and go to the forum to complain about the imbalance. But all they need to do is understand that templates are different and should be played differently.
heroes3.tv/juristis
ICQ - 488-784-621, skype - juristis18

Весна 2014.