Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.

Request to the AC to specify more precisely what is meant by development being blocked:

There is no clear-cut formulation that would fit all situations; each situation is individual and must be assessed by the judge.

Do not confuse the concepts of a block (when it is physically impossible to leave the town) and a bad spawn (the only road is blocked and you have to go off-road to the neighboring respawn).

Once I was sent a save on Jebus Cross with a block that could be bypassed, but bypassing would take about 3 days. I said that the game must be played. After the game, I got a complaint that the judge was bad, like they started collecting Dragon Fly Hives only on day 1.2.2 and fell behind in tempo. The rules don't say that you must place Angels on day 1 or that there must be a direct road to the GO, which you absolutely must fight at the start of day 2. The fact that taking Dragon Fly Hives started on day 1.2.2 already proves that there was development, albeit slower than usual.

Since this point has been discussed a hundred times, there are no changes

Because no one was able to propose an adequate interpretation, and as such, the severity of the block will be determined by the judges. If in doubt — send the save to the judge, and they will tell you to play or restart.

I already proposed a wording that there should be at least ONE unblocked road. For any map except Jebus Cross, leading to another respawn. For Jebus Cross, leaving a chance for real development, not just skipping turns and building units in the castle. That is, running three or more turns across roadless terrain into the wilderness is not development but perversion. But there should be a unified opinion among the judges. Otherwise, everything can simply be written off as a "bad" draw. I believe there is a bad draw, and there is an unplayable one. An unplayable one, with zero chance of victory, should be reset

During a tournament match with the Overlord Hero, the following occurred. I would like to discuss the situation with the majority to understand it better. The Overlord Hero lasted until turn 123, with a diamond layout, and I had the blue color. I significantly messed up the timer in the first week, and on turns 122 and 123, I decided to play as simply as possible to save the timer for the future. As a result, I completed my turn 123 much earlier than Hellight completed his. During my turn on 123, the red player broke into the zone where I was located and which I was scouting, did a small reconnaissance, and retreated back to the teleport. Then, the turn passed, the Overlord Hero ended, and the red player moved again. On his turn 124, Hellight calmly scouted, discovered that part of the army was in the city without a hero, part of the army was on a log, etc., and in general, he made attacks, and battles occurred. During one of the attacks, it became clear to me that, although I initially had a feeling that something was wrong, the essence of the problem is as follows: To explain it more simply, let's imagine that we were playing without the Overlord Hero. That is, on turn 123, I would have seen that the teleport was breached, the red hero had scouted the territory, and accordingly, I would have made my turn 123 completely differently based on this information. It is incorrect to talk about a color advantage here because this is an obvious bug. In essence, the red player became invisible to me on turn 123. The match is important and significant, and I don't want to let it go to chance because I had a serious advantage in the match before this incident. I have no complaints against Hellight; he didn't even think about this. What should I do in this situation? On the one hand, Hellight revealed his army, as did I. On the other hand, the red player became invisible to me on turn 123, and in essence, they moved for two days in a row. Was the purpose of the Overlord Hero to achieve this? I doubt it. The Overlord Hero was created to speed up the process, not to change the game mechanics, which is what happened in the match with Hellight. I repeat, I don't want to complain, but the situation is at least worth discussing, and I also don't want to lose my advantage in the match just because of this "feature." I can send the saves and other materials to the authorized persons if there are any unclear points in my explanation, as the match has not yet been completed. Immediately after Hellight's turn 124, I asked to save the game to understand the situation.

In this whole situation, I just don't understand one thing: why was the turn limit set to 123? :confused:

As part of the turn-based idea, the blue player's turn should have been replayed here. However, due to the lack of contact, this did not happen. In other words, this is a consequence of the algorithm that interrupts the turn-based gameplay.

Baratorch warned that blue cannot see red's moves on this day. I agree with Vik that it should end, but being warned means being prepared. You're not playing your first game with OH, and you could already understand the mechanics if you had bothered to read about it. In the Mirror tournament, OH is not provided, so the responsibility lies entirely with you since you are playing it.

In this whole situation, I just don't understand one thing: why did the Overlord Hold last until turn 123? :confused:

I didn't know that the Overlord Hold lasted until turn 123; for X3DM1, that's not a big deal, but for Diamond, it's definitely too much, considering that, for example, in a game with Dave, the game ended on turn 115; before that, we were playing X3DM1, and it seems Hell left the settings as they were.

Within the idea of the Overlord Hold, there should have been a replay of the blue player's turn. But due to the lack of contact, this did not happen. That is, this is a consequence of the algorithm for interrupting the Overlord Hold.

This is obvious.

Baratorch warned that the blue player couldn't see the red player's moves on that day.
I agree with Wicc that it should have ended, but forewarned is forearmed. You're not playing your first game with the Overlord Hold, and you could have already understood the mechanics if you had bothered to read about it.

I didn't see when and where Baratorch warned about this, and how could I understand such a subtle mechanic in 5-6 games with the Overlord Hold?

In the Mirror tournament, the Overlord Hold is not предусмотрен, so all the responsibility lies with you since you are playing it.

Are you serious? Hypocrisy level 10000?

Since it is not possible to reach a consensus between the players and the judges, the issue will be sent for discussion to the Arbitration Committee. Please await a decision.

Since it is not possible to reach an agreement between the players and the judges, the issue will be sent for discussion to the Arbitration Committee. Please wait for a decision.

Can we see Hellight's opinion?

I didn't know that OH was set to 123; for h3dm1 it was way too much, and for Diamond it' same clearly a lot, considering that, for example, in a game with Dave the whole match ended at 115, before that they played h3dm1 and apparently Hell left the settings.

Well, we played 2 matches before this, and in the first one, by the way on the same Diamond, we agreed to play OH up to 123.
My opinion is — I know it's not a bug; even without playing much with simultaneous turns, I am aware of its mechanics. Who finished their turn first has nothing to do with it, because turn synchronization happens after both players have completed their moves... meaning opponents see all movements only after both finish the turn. Based on this mechanic, this action can be classified at most as an OH feature. There is no question about loading a save from the previous turn; the entire match was already clear from the heap of fights that occurred during the turn — who took which objects, who had which heroes/spells, etc. I partially agree with reddi regarding the fact that those who agreed to it are responsible for OH incidents until it becomes stable and approved... on one hand, I can understand The_, such a thing really wouldn't have happened in a regular match, but we both agreed to play a "non-regular" one, and I wasn't the one who proposed OH; it should be noted that I would actually have played SoD with pleasure. On top of all this, from conversations with the judges, I learned that The_ mentioned the same "OH case" as soon as I started moving, but he posted the problem only when he realized he was losing the battle with the second part of the army during that same turn; this is called one-upping — counting on victory first after seeing a not-so-large opposing army and then starting to complain once defeat becomes apparent. Perhaps my judgment of the situation isn't perfect because I am involved, but since you wanted to know my opinion — here it is.

From conversations with the judges, I learned that The_ spoke about the incident, which he called the "OH case," as soon as I started moving, and he revealed the problem when he realized he was losing the battle with the second wave of troops during the same turn. This is called cheating – initially counting on a victory, seeing a not-so-large enemy army, and only starting to sort things out when it becomes clear that you are losing. Perhaps I am not judging the situation perfectly because of its involvement, but since you wanted to know my opinion, here it is.

You were misled.
If you review my stream, you will see that I realized about this "feature" in the very last battle; before that, there was no talk with the judges or discussion of this situation.

and I didn't suggest using OH

I asked if we would play with OH. You answered yes. In my opinion, this was a mutual decision, but according to your words, it seems that I was persuading you to do it.
241568808 (13:16:13 26/12/2015)
created with 4.1 rc 4, should we use OH?

Hellight (13:16:23 26/12/2015)
yes

who has which heroes, spells, etc.

Considering that you fought with weak units, and you had the strongest Pit unit in the tavern, I think it's obvious, that's your entire army. And you didn't use magic on your main hero; all the battles were with weak units.

this really wouldn't have happened in a normal game

I will repeat my question: was OH created to change the gameplay? Or simply to reduce the time of the game? And in a normal game, as you correctly noted, your 124 would most likely not have happened.

It’s strange, but half the chat was saying the same thing. I can’t watch the stream, but I’ll take your word for it.

As one of the tournament judges, I'd like to share my opinion. The fact that data between players is synchronized only after both players have completed their turn is something that even a non-programmer (like myself) can't really understand, even after playing one game on HotA. Okay, let's assume that's the case. But the fact that HotA is interrupted only by an attack, and not by passing through portals, opening maps, or any other visual interaction, is well-known (right?:D). This has been discussed repeatedly, for example, here: https://sites.google.com/site/heroes3hd/rus/description/hd_plus/sim-turn. The mentioned in the broadcast that he didn't know this. Okay, but then, in connection with this, reasonable questions arise: why was it suggested to play HotA in the final, set it to 123, not worry about it at all during the game, play a Fast Battle, and only after losing battles, become concerned about this issue?! Bonus: http://www.twitch.tv/the__the/v/32990665 Here, starting at 01:51:40, everything is clearly demonstrated (Hellight shouldn't watch)

and only after losing battles did you become interested in this issue?!

As I already wrote, I realized this issue during the game, only in the last battle, which is evident from the stream. As soon as I understood this feature, I immediately wrote to Hellu and then to the tournament judges, and then asked my opponent to save the game. What does worrying about HP during the game have to do with it? What does it have to do with whether or not someone is a programmer?
I didn't understand anything about the bonus at all; what did you want to show with it?

P.S. As I already said and wrote, the situation itself evokes a feeling of unfairness for the reasons described above, which is why I turned to the Arbitration Committee. I will agree with any decision of the Arbitration Committee, and I may also help to improve the HP system or, at least, warn other players who are not programmers.
P.P.S. I'm really glad that certain people didn't make it into the Arbitration Committee during the voting.
P.P.P.S. There is an opinion that someone is upset because they lost in the tournament, not because of a programmer.
P.P.P.P.S. Shame on you, as always, just blabbering :), it's better to start playing Heroes, instead of teasing people on the forum and whining after every game: "Well, I played well, the cards were just unreal, what was that?!" :DD

Timur, given the sheer volume of text in this thread, your impressive victories in the mirror match tournament pale in comparison. It doesn't matter who is right or wrong. If you had quietly won the next match against Hell, most people would have retrospectively said that the score was actually 3-0, not 3-1. That would have been cool and manly. But as it is... it's not cool, and it's not impressive. And in the end, these arguments will be remembered much more than the games and victories. No offense.