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Then, to prevent the game from turning into a stalemate where players endlessly run around in circles when there's no control, because the mirrored maps don't have a tree-like road network like standard maps, but a cyclic one.
This shouldn't have a significant impact on the game's strategy, because on h3dm1 there are 10 cities per plane (12 on Diamond), so control, purely based on probability, usually exists somewhere. Knowing that control definitely exists doesn't really help – building 3-4 GM5s is only possible on XL+U, and games on mirrored maps end sooner.
Even based on preliminary estimates, the situation with "cyclic running around" seems to be several orders of magnitude less likely than the scenario where 2-3 castles with GM5s appear, and the entire game turns into a guessing game. But you will probably write lengthy texts that exponentially increase from post to post, claiming the opposite, with stories about spaceships traversing space, etc. – we've seen this before. Well, at least it's clear where this patch came from. I have no more questions. All that remains is to rely on the common sense of the rest of the community.
Even based on preliminary estimates, the situation with the "cyclic running around" seems to be several orders of magnitude less likely than the scenario where 1-2 Castles with GM5 appear, and the entire game turns into a guessing game. We can only rely on the common sense of the rest of the community.
Yes, I asked Wizard to do this.
I am very surprised by the complaints :smile11:
Common sense tells me that the guessing game with the Guild is present in any case; there have been many precedents for this on the WTS h3dm1 – one player straightforwardly built GM houses and by the middle of the 2nd week, he got everything, while another strategically upgraded houses, and the GM built in the secondary market and got nothing.
Thus, the chance of building control is slightly higher, and besides, if a player doesn't find control in the first of the two Castles, he will purposefully build it in the second Castle, leveling his chances with the one who immediately started building the second Castle (with a random distribution of spells, there is a desire to give up).
And common sense also tells me that the specified method of facilitating the construction of control is more natural, classic, and less random than restructuring the Guild. You don't seem to have any complaints about the latter.
but you will most likely write lengthy texts that increase in geometric progression from post to post, with references to the opposite, stories about spaceships traversing space, etc. Well, at least it's clear where the roots of this patch lie. I have no more questions.
Common sense tells me that the guessing game with the Guild is present in any case; there have been many precedents on the WTS h3dm1 – one player straightforwardly built GM dwellings and by the middle of the 2nd week got everything, another strategically upgraded dwellings, and the GM built in the secondary market and got nothing.
Thus, the chance of building control is slightly higher, and besides, if a player does not find control in the first of the two Castles, he will purposefully build it in the second Castle, leveling his chances with the one who immediately started building the second Castle (with a random distribution of spells, there is a desire to give up).
Guessing is guessing; it's one thing when there are three Castles with GM5, and it is unknown whether there is control in at least one of them. It is another thing when you 100% know that there is control in at least one of these cities – this is already a different guessing game; with all your intelligence and experience, you don't understand this and force me to break it down for you. The examples about building creatures and the Guild are completely irrelevant.
And common sense also tells me that the proposed method of making it easier to build control is more natural, classic, and less random than rebuilding the Guild. Which, apparently, you have no complaints about.
Okay, okay, I understand, all this is a subtle form of trolling, and only in this last paragraph did the obviousness come out :). I didn't write anything about rebuilding solely because it is optional; if there are rules with a mandatory option to play with this checkbox, there will be controversy, but for now, I am not going to rejoice in this checkbox, nor am I going to worry about it; essentially, this is a free (optional) creative endeavor by Wizard, who clearly doesn't have to please everyone. This cannot be said about mirror templates and the built-in checkbox in the settings. It's a pity, but the templates and the very principle of the mirror are very, very pleasing; it would be very disappointing if they lose their original meaning due to such innovations.
Not all guessing games are the same; it's one thing when there are three Castles with GM5, and it's unknown if even one of them has control. It's another thing when you know 100% that at least one of these cities has control—that makes it a different kind of guessing game. Is it really not clear to you, despite all your intelligence and experience, that you are forcing me to break this down for you step by step?
You say the phrase "different guessing game" with such breathlessness, as if it were some kind of sodomy with geese. Yes, different, so what? It differs from the original only by a slightly higher probability of building control. The fewer Castles with GM5 on the map, the greater that probability is. With an average number of them, there's practically no difference; it only manifests when there are few (1-3).
As for "cyclic running being unlikely," there is a real example—perhaps not exactly on this topic, but it illustrates it: the final of CIS-13, specifically on a mirror map. Alex significantly outpaced Bayazet in troops and leveling, but Bayazet managed to find a Dragon Utopia with a blue cap in a dark corner (Alex thought a Dragon Utopia wouldn't fit there, but it was compactly pressed against the rocks), and this happened to be the only control on the map. On day 131, Alex took Bayazet's capital, and Bayazet began "playing for a draw"—jumping all over the map and seizing Castles, sometimes with his main army, and sometimes with one-hit wonders bought out in the towns. Alex resisted for several days but then realized it was useless; he locked himself in his own capital and spent 3-4 days simply rebuilding the tower until he built Dimension Door, then returned and caught Bayazet.
It's just that people haven't fully tasted all the nuances of mirror maps yet, and the motivation to resist in fun games or during the group stage is low, but in serious Tournaments, they will squeeze every possibility out of mirror maps, including this kind of running "for a draw."
You say the phrase "another guessing game" with such breathlessness, as if it were some kind of sodomy with geese. Yes, another one, so what? It differs from the original by a slightly higher probability of building control. The more this is true, the fewer castles with GM5 there are on the map. With an average number of them, there is practically no difference; it only manifests with small numbers (1-3).
As for "cyclic running around being unlikely," there is a real example—perhaps not exactly on this topic, but it illustrates it: the final of CIS-13, specifically on a mirror map. Alex significantly outpaced Bayazet in troops and leveling, but Bayazet managed to find a Dragon Utopia with a blue cap in a dark corner (Alex thought a Dragon Utopia wouldn't fit there, but it was compactly pressed against the rocks), and this happened to be the only control on the map. On day 131, Alex took Bayazet's main town, and Bayazet began "playing for a draw"—jumping all over the map and reclaiming castles, sometimes with his father, and sometimes with one-hit wonders bought out in towns. Alex resisted for several days but then realized it was useless; he locked himself in his own main town and spent 3-4 days simply rebuilding the tower until he built Dimension Door, then returned and caught Bayazet.
I have stated my point of view; whether the breathlessness was factual or imagined in your head is not important. I saw no consistent answer. Instead, the star fleet received reinforcements in the form of a couple of new destroyers. I will provide a clear example from the recent past so as not to tread the same water again. In the tournament thread for HotA, we discussed the pros and cons of HotA castles with you over three or four pages; by the end of the discussion, I had already given up on trying to explain seemingly obvious things to you. However, a user named nick fixed the situation, managing in one post to clearly answer all questions and dot every i.
People simply haven't tasted mirror maps in all their nuances yet, and the motivation to resist in fun games and during the group stage is low, but in serious tournaments, they will squeeze every possibility out of mirror maps, including this kind of running around "for a draw"
Regarding people not having tasted them yet—I agree. Well then, maybe when the issue truly ripens and something needs to be changed, that's when we act? Instead of taking the apple and sucking the pear before the first one has even been bitten? As for motivation—water, water, and more water. What are your conclusions based on? Something tells me, considering your gaming activity, it's clearly not experience—a magic crystal, tarot cards?
Installed it and started testing.
For some reason, I couldn't find the templates in the list of mirrored items. I don't understand why. The patch is enabled; I rebuilt the guild in the Tower, spent 5 days with 3 spells each, and finally got the desired Teleport spell. For some reason, it gives 1000 resources for each resource type on the chessboard; I tried several times, and it consistently gives 1000 of each resource.
I agree that the general public hasn't tried it out yet. So maybe when the issue actually ripens and something really needs to be changed, then we act? Instead of swapping one apple for a pear before you've even taken a bite of the first one?
But why wait until everyone has tried it if the apple has already been tasted, and the conclusions are exactly as I stated?
By that logic, h3dm1 should have been implemented in version 1.0 from 2010 first, and then gradually brought to the current version as complaints arose.
Regarding motivation—it's water, water, and more water. What are your conclusions based on? Something tells me, given your gaming activity is clearly not based on experience—a magic crystal, tarot cards?
My experience playing on mirrors is higher than that of the vast majority of participants in the current tournament—~20-30 tournament games and about as many fun games. Plus watching streams and live games.
And I have very extensive experience in template building and modding for online, more than anyone else. This doesn't mean I'm always right; it happens that I make mistakes, but it means you shouldn't come at me with complaints like "I feel, dude, that you're wrong, do it the way I say." If you disagree with something—present arguments, and if they prove sufficient, I may reconsider my point of view. But so far all I've heard is whining about a "different guessing game" and universal hero-player horror stories like "one person built DD on the first try, while another didn't build DD on the first try."
I have stated my point of view; with what breath—actual or imagined in your head—is not important. I haven't seen a consistent answer.
If everything I write is an inconsistent answer... damn... I don't even know... then what exactly is a consistent answer?
On the other hand, the starfleet received reinforcements in the form of a couple of new destroyers. I'll give a clear example from the recent past so as not to tread the same water again. In the HotA tournament thread, we discussed the pros and cons of HotA castles with you over three or four pages; by the end of the discussion, I had already given up on trying to explain seemingly obvious things to you, but Nick fixed the situation, managing in one post to clearly answer all questions and dot every i.
Nick wrote a universally diplomatic "both sides" post, thereby lowering the temperature of the discussion. He did well, but neither your position nor mine shifted an iota because of it. Because your position is "I want the Miner to rule like in SoD," and my position is "I don't want the Miner to rule like in SoD." There are no common grounds; it's a matter of taste, and the entire discussion there was conducted solely to show outside observers that the positions being voiced were reasonable.
It's the same thing now—you want control to drop as it does in SoD, and I don't want control to drop as it does in SoD. Because I dislike the dispersion of the SoD magic system. And while specifically in SoD I advocate for keeping the existing algorithm because it's classic and all that, in new developments I try to somehow reduce the same-spell dispersion.
The algorithm implemented on the mirror seems quite successful to me—simple, clear, and very classic, without creating new entities. Try answering this question: after how many years would players have guessed this algorithm if Wizard hadn't written about it himself?
Why wait for everyone to figure it out when the apple has already been tasted, and the conclusions are as I stated?
Following that logic, h3dm1 should have been implemented in version 1.0 from 2010, and then, as complaints arose, gradually brought to the version that exists now.
Aren't you tired of trolling? Let's take something from the first Heroes game. What does this have to do with it? It turns out to be trolling for the sake of trolling.
This doesn't mean I'm always right; sometimes I'm wrong, but it does mean that you shouldn't come to me with complaints like, "I think you're wrong, so do it the way I say."
:smile12: :smile12: :smile12:
If you disagree with something, present arguments, and if they are sufficient, I may reconsider my point of view.
Arguments have been presented, in simple and clear language.
But so far, I've only heard whining about "another guess" and universally heroic scare stories like "one built a DD on the first try, and another didn't build a DD on the first try."
:smile12: :smile12: :smile12:
If everything I write is an inconsistent answer... damn... I don't even know... but what is a consistent answer then?
Consistent means logically consistent, properly justified, and not containing contradictions.
An answer is an oral or written statement, a message, caused by a question or appeal.
I doubt you'll be able to put these two concepts together, but you never know.
Nick wrote a universally diplomatic post, "agreeing with both sides," thereby reducing the intensity of the discussion.
Where did you get this information? Do you know everything about everyone, what and how they put into their sayings? Are you the big brother? :smile28:
Because your position is "I want Шахтер to rule as in SoD," and my position is "I don't want Шахтер to rule as in SoD."
And you learned a lot from that discussion, it clearly wasn't in vain :smile12: :smile12: :smile12:.
The algorithm implemented in the mirror seems quite successful to me - simple, clear, and very classic, without creating new entities.
What makes it classic? What makes it successful? Who told you that?
Try to answer the question - how many years would it take for players to figure out this algorithm if Визард hadn't written about it himself?
There are things that it would be better not to figure out at all.
If Wizard hadn't written about it himself, there would be a select group who knew the algorithm and everything else. This usually leads to being exposed and punished after such a scheme is revealed; apparently, the instinct for self-preservation doesn't fail.
Polemic and demagoguery aside, I would kindly ask the wizard not to introduce mandatory changes to the game based on the request of just one person, even if he seems to you like the king of all that exists and the forefather of heroes.
+ in the h3dm1 template, teleporters connecting planes have been changed to one-way (like in Diamond), and also a mismatch between single-cell and double-cell monoliths on different planes has been fixed.
Could you please provide more details about this point? It is unclear from the text what has changed and what the essence of the change is
Installed it, started testing. I couldn't find the templates in the list of mirrored ones... I don't understand why. The patch is connected, I rebuilt the guild in the tower, spent 5 days, 3 turns each, and finally got the desired teleport. For some reason, it gives 1000 resources for each resource type on the ferry. I tried several times, and it consistently gives 1000 of each resource.
Thank you, I hope Wizard will fix it promptly.
Added 9 minutes later Javdet
Please explain this in more detail. It's not clear from the text what has changed. And what is the essence of the change?
+1. Are one-way passages now everywhere on h3dm1? I hope not. Regarding the fix for the bug where a 1-cell passage was converted into a 2-cell passage, that's understandable (previously, it was sometimes impossible to exit a 2-cell passage if the cell was adjacent to an obstacle).
+ if there are cities on the map with the ability to build 4-5 GM, then control will definitely be among them somewhere.
Why can't control spells be given upon building a separate structure? For example, for a portal, resources of 5 and 5k gold; for DD, 10k gold; for flight, 7500. Then both the "power vs control" supporters and the "rebuild" supporters will be satisfied, since by spending gold you won't get power (there will be nothing to buy, you won't upgrade archangels). And everyone will be on equal terms.
Could it be even better?) In Mage Guild 4, make Town Portal 100%, and reduce the level 5 spells to just Fly, Dimension Door, and implied ones) in Mage Guild, and remove the other useless level 5 spells)
The_
