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Mafia: general discussions.

Mafia
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Online now Heroist
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#6252
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No one forces you to apply a percentage-based defense to a powerful game role, but very often there are situations where it is not entirely clear whether it is necessary to strengthen or not a particular character; in such cases, those 25-50% will come in handy.

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Offline ToX
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#6253
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But in general, Yashur is right; I have personally learned that using percentage-based defenses always carries the risk of the game going awry. When it shouldn't, the defense will trigger; when it should, it won't. A strong team might unexpectedly receive an additional boost due to this randomness, leading to a one-sided victory and a lot of negativity...
Non-percentage-based defenses are better in this regard because they are completely predictable. If you don't plan something, don't take it into account, and it backfires, that's your problem; you should have thought it through better.

(c) Immanuel Kant...
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#6254
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Heroist
very often there are situations when it is not clear whether it is necessary to strengthen or not a particular character, in such cases, 25-50% would be just right.
I just don't understand how these 25-50% would "be just right"... They can either strengthen a strong character or weaken a weak one. In my opinion, winning or losing should depend on one's own actions or the actions of the opponent, and not on the GM's coin flip. Can someone explain to me how the situation with 75% protection for Red, Sky, and Hekasan in the last turns would be better than their impenetrable defense? Would they have been killed? And if not, then what?

Ничто не возникает из ничего и ничто не пропадает бесследно.
Если где-то чего-то убудет, то в другом месте добавится.
(Закон сохранения).

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Online now Arandor
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#6255
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As if percentages ever determined the outcome of a game, they simply complement the gameplay and can help with balancing, if they are even needed. And in terms of roles, it usually works well; at least in my games, I didn't just give defense to anyone, but logically justified it. But with pure defense stats, the balance becomes even worse; they stuff it with all sorts of nonsense, and then you have to sort through the entire set.

Be strong. Believe
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#6256
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Arandor
It's as if percentages once decided the outcome of the game.
At the very least, in round 81, percentages were the deciding factor. The Mafia gained an advantage due to two consecutive "double corpses" abilities triggering and a 50% defense penetration joining them. If it had simply been "killing two targets with a 1-turn cooldown" and a one-time defense for me, instead of "50%", the game would have continued. Although the city would have still lost, as is usually the case for Revan.

Ничто не возникает из ничего и ничто не пропадает бесследно.
Если где-то чего-то убудет, то в другом месте добавится.
(Закон сохранения).

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Online now Heroist
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#6257
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They can either strengthen a strong player or weaken a weak one.
That's why they should be given to players with moderate strength in certain situations. No one complains about random reassignment, even though it's much worse than random chance. As for the rest, for example, I find it disgusting to realize that I've figured out the role of a player with five impenetrable defenses against all actions, but it would be much more reassuring if I knew that he had ninety-five percent defense, even though that's actually even worse. CHANCE, FAITH, HOPE, PERSONAL PREFERENCE.

Whatever
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Offline Ment
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#6258
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No one forces you to apply percentage-based protection to a powerful game role, but very often there are situations when it is not entirely clear whether or not a particular character needs to be strengthened. In such cases, those same 25-50% would be just right.
+25% protection literally means that with a 25% probability, the character will be strengthened by a factor of two. And with a 75% probability, the character will not be strengthened at all. This is not the same as strengthening a character by 25%; it is very important to understand this, and this is one of the problems with probabilities: it seems that they only slightly change the situation, but in reality, it is a powerful element of randomness, completely unpredictable, but radically changing everything. So, I would never introduce any small "enhancements" in the form of 25-50% protection.
It's a different matter when we have a character who, according to the setting, is lucky and unpredictable. Then, perhaps, it makes sense to introduce probabilistic protection specifically for him as a unique feature. Of course, the Lizardman wouldn't like such an option, but it is relatively democratic: at least it is possible to take into account the presence of this feature in only one instance of such a role, and it is unlikely to seriously disrupt the balance; it is not the kind of absolute chaos when every second role has probabilistic protection.
 

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Offline Драккошка
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#6259
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In the very first setting I created, I had percentages for god-related effects. I was having a lot of fun tweaking the balance, shifting 10-15% to defense here and there. In general, having exactly 50% is acceptable, but I remember someone having a role with "50% chance to kill," which is also not ideal.
Percentages can be used when a role can have multiple effects. For example, 50% chance to learn one status or 50% chance to learn another (in games with two statuses) or something similar. The result will be certain, but which one specifically is up to chance. Or with duelists, 50% chance to kill the opponent, 50% chance to die themselves; one corpse is guaranteed, but whose – that's up to fate.
А, вот почему.

🏹🎪+⛓️♿=💕
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Online now Злобный Ящур
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#6260
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Heroist
That's why they should be given a medium-strength role in some situations.
I would appreciate it if you could explain how these "25-50%" of this "medium-strength role" are better than a one-time, ordinary defense.
No one has any complaints about random redirection.
I do have complaints about it. I would never use this ability if I received a role with it, except in special cases like 89 Mafia on the last turn. But even then, the city didn't get anything out of it; it would have been better to redirect to the chosen target, but as a one-time ability. By the way, this was the only time when randomness played in my favor.
Heroist
I calculated the role of a maniac with five invulnerable players.
There haven't been any roles like that yet; don't talk nonsense.
Heroist
CHANCE FAITH HOPE
In short, I understand... Those who enjoy games with all sorts of lotteries and other games of chance like randomness; those who prefer to think and plan do not. That's all.

Ничто не возникает из ничего и ничто не пропадает бесследно.
Если где-то чего-то убудет, то в другом месте добавится.
(Закон сохранения).

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Online now kcfgogbfalgfl
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#6261
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I was going to write my own opinion, but then I thought about it and decided not to, otherwise someone might think that I am projecting my opinion onto the situation in Actae.

Added 3 minutes later
But in general, to better understand this topic, I would recommend playing Hearthstone after the Goblins and Gnomes expansion was introduced.
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Offline KindShaman
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#6262
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Revan, sorry for not expressing myself well at the end of the game. It was just emotions...
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Online now kcfgogbfalgfl
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#6263
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No way, I'll never forgive, I'll never forget.
Just to be clear: this is a joke. And that post of mine about the offense was of the same nature.
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Online now Heroist
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#6264
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Duels and lucky adventurers are exactly what I was writing about or wanted to write about, in a way.
But if the setting suddenly lacks these elements, it doesn't mean, oh my god, no randomness, it can't be done, it must be removed, deleted, rewritten. For some, this is an added interest, and for others, it seems like the greatest violation of the perfect balance, let it be.

I would be grateful if you could explain how these "25-50%" of this "average strength role" are better than a one-time, ordinary defense.
Well, at least because percentages can work, or they might not, meaning that the initial POWER OF THE ROLE (I expressed myself strangely, yes) is not set within clear and definite limits and is not assigned a constant value, but rather a certain range is created, which is very cool and interesting. FOR ME.
There haven't been any roles like that yet, don't talk nonsense.
:rolleyes:
Those who enjoy games with all sorts of lotteries and other random elements will like the randomness, but those who prefer to think and plan will not.

Whatever
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Online now kcfgogbfalgfl
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#6265
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Duels and lucky adventurers
At some point, I thought you were discussing Crusader Kings 2.
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Online now Arandor
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#6266
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Percentages and randomness add more excitement to the game, which is needed in Mafia, especially when there are passive players around. Although, the random redirection is still terrible; I don't know why it was even added. 50% for the town and Mafia, 75% for the roles. Other numbers shouldn't be used. Regarding the last game, it would have been possible to give a chance to break through these natural defenses, because one witch isn't enough, especially with three Mafia members who can kill. I don't know, maybe I just don't like this choice from a bunch of killing options. It would be better to remove everything and give each role one kill with a specific feature, which would also weaken the town and the roles. Or, put everything in at once, but with randomness.

Be strong. Believe
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