Posts from "Necropolis" - changes to creatures of levels 6-7. Auto-translated

It's impossible to complete a map with absolute power in 6 weeks (please take a look at the map – I can't imagine how maps like this can be completed so quickly), but most of the multiplayer maps can be – I agree, I'm not saying that all maps take a long time to play, but in the cases I mentioned, I doubt it will be quick), and we've also strayed from the topic, which could be continued with feedback from other mod testers or new ideas that haven't emerged yet. I suggest we leave it for now, and everything will be fine unless someone suggests something, and then...

I wanted to ask: Does Fear work on retaliation attacks? If not, I'll leave it on the Banshee, at least because I'll have to choose between Fear and the retaliation ability anyway.

Took a while, but here are some new thoughts, hello Heroist!

Good afternoon, Heroist.

And a good day to you too. ;)

I had another idea – to create two versions of the mod: a single-player version and a multiplayer version. The idea is a bit far-fetched, but I imagine it like this:

In single-player, we nerf the warcry, buff Banshee, and leave the aura.
In multiplayer, we leave everything as it is, but remove the aura and (maybe the fear effect).

The idea isn't the best, but the respected Nargott is right that single-player and multiplayer are things that can't be compared.
If in a battle against a dumb AI, the ability is a terrible overpowered thing, then in multiplayer, it's a good chance to stay afloat.

It's impossible to complete a map designed for absolute domination in 6 weeks (please look at the map – I can't imagine how maps like this can be completed so quickly), but the majority of Multiplayer maps can be. I agree, I'm not saying that all maps take a long time to play, but in the cases I mentioned, I doubt they can be completed quickly. Besides, we've strayed from the topic, which can be continued with feedback from other mod testers or new ideas that haven't emerged yet. I suggest we leave it for now, and everything is fine unless someone suggests something, and then...

I admit that if all the guards in the new zones on the map consist of 50 dragons each, then this will indeed slow down progress, because to break through them on week 4, you would already need strong artifacts and a well-developed hero, which is impossible without venturing into the Treasury. But I would classify such maps as unsuitable for Multiplayer. It is impossible to create a balance suitable for any time frame without total equalization, so usually, they are limited to common time frames of 3-6 weeks.

Regarding the map itself, unfortunately, I can't give an expert opinion because I haven't played the classic (map) mode on the original Heroes 5 for a long time.

Furthermore, tournament practice shows that the Necromancer loses in long games (and dominates in rush games), so maybe these +1 deaths per week, against strong level 6 and 7 units, compensate for his weakness.

Well, I like to consider everything and for all cases, and it's not worth comparing single-player and multiplayer – I agree – thanks for the clarification, otherwise I would have continued to doubt this mod. Making two mods is logical, but I don't really want to deal with them – it's better to have one version that will be suitable for multiplayer. So: we have stronger banshees with a shriek and a fear attack, and a herald – tougher, but with a terrible presence and a grasp, the question is – are they equal? If not, then you can give each of them one additional skill and balance them out. In my opinion: Terrible presence + Grasp > Fear attack + Shriek If you give the herald an aura, then what about the Banshees...? (or maybe let them all reduce defense by 1, like the Ghost did)

I wanted to ask: Does Fear work on a retaliatory attack? If not, then I will leave it on the Banshee, at least because I will still have to choose between Fear and the retaliatory ability.

Fear does not work on a retaliatory attack.

Regarding the choice between the shriek and a direct attack, if there is an enemy nearby, there should generally be no choice – only the shriek.

Because if there is a choice, then the attack and the shriek are comparable, which means you don't have to be too afraid of the shriek, as it is almost equal to the attack.

That is, there are two possibilities here:
1) either in those rare cases when the opponent is nearby, there is a choice between an attack and a shriek
2) or in these rare cases, the ability works very well, and thus remains a dangerous (strong) ability overall

Either a choice, or a strong ability.

As an example, you can take Red Dragons. Damage when burning +50%, +retaliation, so there is no choice between attacking from a position and using the ability.

In this mod, the shriek on 1 target is indeed comparable to an attack, but the danger lies precisely in the retaliation and the area of effect.


Added 1 minute ago

In my opinion:
terrible presence + Grasp > Attack with fear + shriek
if you give the aura to the Herald, then what about the Banshee...? (or maybe it should reduce it by 1 for all Battle Dragons, as the Phantom Dragon did)

You are somehow only evaluating the abilities, ignoring the stats of the units.

The Aura suits the Messenger, and it does look good, but what should we give the Banshee instead?

Added 2 minutes later
I noticed that the Messenger is weaker compared to the Banshee.

Multiplayer: At the beginning, the Herald is dominant – the ability is good, deals significant damage, holds the line in the first weeks, and also scares. Banshees tank well and can attack and scare. The damage is weaker, but there are fewer losses (considering raising the dead and 200 HP). Good for clearing mobs. 52 to 48 in favor of the Herald. The multiplayer game is over. Single-player: We played for a long, long time, a very long time, about six months, and it passed by unnoticed. Let's say, 45 Heralds – the damage is still high, BUT: the ability isn't that great, it does scare, but if the enemy focuses on it, sooner or later it will be defeated – which is equivalent to death. And if it also attacks. In general, it's inferior. Banshees – 45 truly invulnerable monsters. The ability is equivalent to combining two blades from Heroes 3 (or not?) – a catastrophe of global proportions. In the first turn, the Banshee reaches the squad – if it's lucky, it scares, then confidently holds the line, if necessary, the Necromancer heals, and then it attacks. 10*(10-0)*45 = 4500. Or not? Anyway, the attack takes down 20 Archangels – and that's not bad. Of course, if the Archangels are attacked by the Herald – and if he's lucky – it will be even more painful for them, BUT: he still takes damage in return. I think the balance is 65 to 35 in favor of the Banshee. The end of the single-player game. Now, about the rest. I have removed the aura from the Banshee for now, and left everything as it was for the Herald. If you're making a map for multiplayer, the balance is fine. As for the choice, for example, if a unit is in three squares, in my opinion, it's better to attack with a chance of not receiving a response – with fear

Regarding the choice, for example, if a unit is three squares away, I think it's better to attack with a chance of not receiving a counterattack in return.

And without any fear, it's usually more advantageous to attack than to taunt if the target is 1-2 squares away. Because the damage is significantly higher, and an unreturned attack isn't that great, since we'll be focusing on someone anyway, and a counterattack will inevitably occur (which can also be mitigated with single-target attacks).

Fear is mostly dangerous not because of the lack of a counterattack, but because the victim panics and loses all the movement points they've accumulated (the stunning effect).

So, should we focus on multiplayer? Honestly, it seems to me that most Heroes players these days prefer interesting mods and single-player scenarios. IMHO, of course, but you don't always have time to play with a friend online. But here – whenever you want – all maps are open for you alone. I don't even know.

So, should we focus on multiplayer? Honestly, it seems to me that most Heroes players (nowadays) prefer interesting mods and single-player scenarios. IMHO, of course, but you don't always have time to play with a friend online. But here – whenever you want – all maps are open for you alone. I don't even know.

Frankly, single-player doesn't necessarily mean a long game, although some scenarios can be quite lengthy. Much depends on the playing style; some players take their time and clear the map, while others quickly defeat enemies, similar to a multiplayer style.

In any case, as I said before, the balance in single-player is much more dependent on the map itself (scenario, scripts). But for multiplayer, the game's own balance is crucial.

the terrible presence is still somewhat related to incorporeality, and the HP difference is clearly not twice as much, so something should still be given in return for the lost aura, as an idea, such as -1 defense for all.

Added 2 minutes later
And it seems illogical to me that the undead's HP is higher than the improved unit's - for the Herald, the undead's HP, like the Herald's, should be reduced to 150 :smile32:

Ghoul is a standard unit with average damage and stats, and it doesn't get any upgrades. We weakened the Herald for a completely different reason.

Added after 59 seconds
Regarding the -1 defense, I'm not sure; it's practically the same.

Well, it's not exactly the same, and now the difference between the first and second rows is twice as much, and the ability affecting Battle Damage remained – I think it makes sense.