Sylvan vs. Necropolis — Sylvan

Ment

3/12/2013 5:58 AM UTC

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So, Dire is taking two types of magic, both of which are not very effective against Necropolis, just to make life (death) a little more difficult for his hero? And who will fight his army, which is twice the size of yours? Pushkin?
I should note that I see light as more promising in this case; it clearly works no worse against darkness than darkness itself, especially with Eternal Light. And in summoning Necromancers, he will always be ahead of us, no matter what we do. He doesn't need druids for spellcasting, and his wasp swarm and hive will work perfectly well, as will his phoenix with elementals, which will clearly take down more percentage of elves per hit than our phoenix will take down of him.
If I'm wrong about anything, please correct me.

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In reply to ramzez

NerVNotDeaD

3/12/2013 7:36 AM UTC

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ramzez

The main question: what to do with Dark Magic? There are 3 possible answers, depending on which skill you manage to acquire.
A) Dark Magic with two seals. Then it turns out that we have two identical magic skills with the Necromancer. In this case, the main thing is to take Druids with Channel Magic to keep up and maintain order. Plus, there are Unicorns with resistance and magic resistance in the Luck branch – that's more than enough. Moreover, we will be able to cast mass slow, while the Necromancer won't, because we have both seals and horses, and magic resistance in Luck. This option is generally great if you know for sure that the Necromancer has invested in Dark Magic.

B) Sorcery and Counterspell. Then Empathy will have a 200% effect. If you are sure that the Necromancer hasn't invested in Horror Scream, then Empathy is, of course, unnecessary. But even with Inspiration, the Elf will feel quite comfortable. If you manage to get Counterspell, then just take artifacts to increase your knowledge as much as possible. And catch the Necromancer off guard. If you block the Necromancer's magic, the troops will be left to fight one-on-one, and the Elves' advantage will increase.

Conclusion: Dirael is unbeatable against Necromancers! He's overpowered! And people are trying to squeeze the last bit of juice out of the weak Warlock, who is having a terrible time at the start. :))

Hmm... and how long are you willing to wait for Dirael, when you get Sorcery (4%) and Dark Magic (2%)? Please consider the average development scenario, not a super-lucky one where you get everything you want. The option you proposed is interesting (primarily because of its originality), but after a couple of battles with Warlock level 20-25, with a rain of enchanted arrows on sworn enemies and mass accelerations and divine powers, which he will have 100% of the time if there are no special conditions, you will see the drawbacks of your unconventional approach

ramzez

3/12/2013 10:01 AM UTC

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mmm... and how long are you willing to wait for Dire to get Sorcery (4%) and Dark Magic (2%)? Please consider it.

And what happened to option B) Light Magic (8%) from the quote of my text?! :) Because I also like this option. Together with the previous ones, it's already 14%. That's more than enough. I will definitely get one of the three options.

The option you suggested is, of course, interesting (primarily because of its originality), but after fighting a couple of battles with Wing at level 20-25, with a rain of enchanted arrows against sworn enemies and mass accelerations and divine powers, which he will have 100%, unless there are special conditions, you will see the drawbacks of your unconventional approach yourself.

By the time your Wing reaches level 20-25, Dire will already be at level 25-30! You probably play on a medium difficulty level, not a hard one. Otherwise, the difference in development speed would be more important to you. That's one thing. Secondly, if Dire finds a tome of light or a couple of scrolls with antimagic, summoning magic will be more than enough, and you can safely take attack, and in this branch, there is a general acceleration. That is, light magic is easily replaced. General dispel is still useless against the Necromancer, because his magic power is higher. But you can't replace elemental equilibrium in summoning with anything. Besides, I can resurrect archers who have very low health and very high damage. The effectiveness of such a resurrection will be higher than that of the Necromancer.

Added 42 minutes ago

And so, should Dire take two types of magic, both of which are not very effective against the Necromancer, just to make his hero's life (death) a little more difficult? And who will fight his army, which is twice as large as yours? Pushkin?
I note that in this case, I see light as more promising; it clearly works no worse against darkness than darkness itself, especially with Eternal Light. Well, in summoning, the Necromancer will still be ahead of us, no matter what we do. He doesn't need druids for sorcery, and his wasp swarm and hive will work perfectly, as will his phoenix with elementals, which will clearly destroy more percent of elves per hit than our phoenix destroys of him in percent. If I'm wrong, correct me.

Well, if the Necromancer summons a phoenix, and we have one too, that's good; we didn't spend a turn on the spell and can use it successfully. Besides, we can resurrect archers, and we can summon fire warriors ourselves. Besides, it is not beneficial for the Necromancer to take elemental equilibrium, as then he will not be able to get the scream of terror.

And elf darkness against necromancer darkness is just the thing. We can take seals of darkness with a clear conscience, but the Necromancer cannot - the probability that the elf will go into darkness is too low. Besides, there is mass slowing there. If you also take mass acceleration in attack, the Necromancers will have a hard time.

In reply to ramzez

NerVNotDeaD

3/12/2013 11:56 AM UTC

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ramzez

Where did option B) Light Magic (8%) from my text go?! :)

By the time your Wing is level 20-25, Dyrael will already be level 25-30! You're probably playing on a medium difficulty level, not a hard one.

I didn't say anything about light because your statement about it doesn't raise any questions; light magic is a natural choice for an elf in most cases, especially against the Necropolis.
Regarding the difficulty, I play on Veteran with humans in the original Heroes 3.1 on random maps or in duels. There's no need to belittle opponents you don't know personally or haven't played with, and therefore don't know their abilities. Personally, this character development seems very dependent on a lucky combination of skills. If there's no mentor and good skills don't drop, the game will be lost, while the development methods described here allow for any scenario.

ramzez

3/12/2013 6:09 PM UTC

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Personally, I find that such character development relies heavily on a lucky combination of skills. If there's no mentor and the right skills don't appear, the game will be a failure. Meanwhile, the development methods described here allow for any outcome.

What other lucky combination of skills are you talking about? I suggested taking Logistics (15%), Summoning (basic, 2%), Luck (15%), and Leadership (8%). And then, for the last slot, I offered some options. By the way, notice that 40% of the probability is already accounted for. Now, the probability of magic is 7%, and darkness is 3%, totaling 10%. Taking Logistics and Luck right away won't be difficult. The chances aren't that low if you choose the most popular skills.

Moreover, even if you choose Dire Ele and focus on constantly increasing Luck or not, those 4 skill points spent on Summoning will still pay off quickly due to the hero's increased development speed.

NerVNotDeaD

3/13/2013 9:26 AM UTC

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To avoid making unsubstantiated claims, I'll try today. I last played as Elves about two years ago, and I remember considering the Direaeli option and, in particular, overwhelming enemies not with swarms of wasps but with hives. However, the maps didn't often provide me with enough tomes, scrolls, or quivers of arrows, or the items I needed, so Direaeli ended up as a buffer, and the troops did all the work. Also, at that time, I usually played with 3 opponents (over a Wi-Fi local network), so there wasn't much talk about effectively using the "Rain" spell against enemies.

ramzez

3/13/2013 9:57 AM UTC

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I'll try it out today to prove my point.

Yeah, I respect that, bro! It would be interesting to discuss further the clearing of neutral creatures in the "Starting with the Elves" topic. I don't know how you play, and I can't imagine the level of your gameplay, as you wrote, that's true. But it seems to me that you might be able to assess the speed of the start with the Dire. It would be interesting if you wrote which neutral creatures you don't touch in the first and second weeks.
From what people write on the forum, I get the impression that people simply don't understand how to clear neutral creatures with the Dire, while I squeeze every last drop out of it. That's why there's a difference in the assessment of heroes. People prefer Ossir and Wing, and that seems strange to me.

By the way, against the undead, this start should be the fastest, in my opinion. I recently had an idea that against the undead, as a second skill, I would try to take Wisdom if it appears. Ideally, like this: level 2 - advanced summoning, level 3 - fire warriors, level 4 - wisdom, level 5 - attraction of magic and mana, which is already 1.5 times more, which means you can cast spells more often and move faster across the map.
The main thing is to get to the Necropolis earlier than it reaches level 25, so that it doesn't take the "Shriek of Horror" skill, and with the Dire, this is quite possible. With this skill build, you can try Leadership as the third skill, followed by Empathy. This will be ideal for both neutral creatures and fighting the Necromancer. Well, if Wisdom doesn't appear at the beginning, then, of course, forget about it.
NerVNotDeaD, what do you think about leveling up the skills like this?

NerVNotDeaD

3/13/2013 12:44 PM UTC

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Why aren't you paying attention to the Lord of Cold? It deals more damage and freezes enemies, its skills and spells are easy to acquire, and it's particularly effective against Necropolis. The downside is that the Ice Shield isn't the rarest artifact. As for switching to Necropolis, I think you should do it as soon as you have dragons, because by that time, the Necropolis will have accumulated some undead, and your existing vampires and zombies will be taken out by Ents and shot by archers. Your melee units will handle the rest. By that time, the Necropolis won't have built up its guild, and even if it does, it might be at the expense of summoning (meaning it will summon fewer undead). And even then, it's not a given that it will build the guild. If you take Wisdom with Attraction, you'll be able to summon elementals a couple of times, which will help you take out the zombies and vampires. I'm interested to hear the opinions of Necropolis fans, because I don't like them, and that's why I might have described their development model incorrectly for weeks 3-4.

ramzez

3/13/2013 1:06 PM UTC

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NerVNotDeaD, it seems like everything is correct, and maybe you can also get the Cold skill for your Castle. I think it's a good time to attack the Necropolis around the third or fourth week.

I wonder, does anyone know what will happen if the Necromancer doesn't take the Elemental skill, but the Elf does? And then, after the Elf summons the elementals, the Necromancer also summons them. What will happen then? Will there be two elementals on the Elf's side? Or will their own disappear?

NerVNotDeaD

3/13/2013 1:41 PM UTC

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the same number of elementals of the opposite element should appear; the existing ones will not disappear anywhere.

Ment

3/13/2013 6:14 PM UTC

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As far as I remember, they will disappear right after they appear.

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In reply to NerVNotDeaD

TerMinator

3/14/2013 5:28 AM UTC

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NerVNotDeaD

I didn't say anything about Light because your statement about it doesn't raise any questions; Light is usually a given for Elves, especially against Necromancers.
As for the difficulty, I play on Veteran with humans in the original Heroes 3.1 on random maps or in duels. There's no need to belittle opponents you don't know personally or haven't played with, and therefore don't know their abilities. Personally, I find this character development very reliant on a lucky combination of skills. If there's no mentor and good skills don't appear, the game will be lost, while the methods described here allow for any scenario.

You guys can argue, and whoever wins will be right. Ramzez, do you think no one knows about your summoned swords and crystals? :D It's a bug in the game, and you're taking advantage of it (and these spells are still hard to find or require a spellbook, but neither is readily available, and summoning is only available to Dire Ele, with a small chance for others. There are many risks in this tactic, so it doesn't justify itself!:smile42:

ramzez

3/14/2013 8:41 AM UTC

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Why don't you guys have a fight, and whoever wins will be right.

Man, I'd love to. But I can't play Heroes right now. If I start playing, I'll end up sitting around all day again, from morning till night, not doing anything useful. That's why I'm on the forum, sharing my accumulated experience. And I have the most experience with the Elves.

Ramzez, do you think no one knows about your summoned swords and crystals?

I hardly use them, especially the swords: when clearing out neutrals, I use the Hornet Swarm and summoning as a priority. And in battles with enemy heroes, there's no time for swords and crystals either. What's the bug you're talking about?

And summoning is only available to Dyrael, the others have a small chance of getting it, there are many risks in this tactic, so it doesn't pay off!

I absolutely agree: going for summoning against Necromancers with other heroes is idiotic. With Dyrael, the trick is in the fast start. In general, light magic is better against Necromancers. But the fast start compensates for this advantage. I think it's reasonable to play with slightly less suitable magic, but with much faster progress. You need to get to the Necromancers as quickly as possible.

Added 2 hours 37 minutes ago
I just posted a development strategy for Dyrael in the fast start thread: 1. Fire Warriors, 2. Wisdom with Attraction or Defense with Last Stand - whichever we get first, it doesn't really matter. 3. Logistics. This is what you need for a fast start, no matter who you play.
And the last skill is specifically for undead: light or dark magic. In total, the probability of getting it is 10%, which is enough. We get an anti-hero: we limit summoning with Elemental Balance, and dark magic with Dark Seals or Light. The main thing is a hyper-fast start, and the Necromancer simply won't have time to get the Shout of Horror.

In reply to Ment

NerVNotDeaD

3/14/2013 8:49 AM UTC

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Ment

They definitely do, and if my memory serves me right, they disappear right away.

Ment, with all due respect to your experience in Heroes 5, but your memory is failing you here. I just checked, created two duel heroes, Dyrael and Vlad. I gave Dyrael the Summon Elementals, Fire Warriors, and Elemental Equilibrium skills, and limited Vlad to only Summon Elementals. The result of the experiment: Dyrael summoned Fire Warriors, and Vlad summoned Air Elementals, and immediately, the same number of Stone Elementals appeared on Dyrael's side, while the Fire Warriors did not disappear.

ramzez

3/14/2013 9:05 AM UTC

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Generally, it's good that the elemental balance works this way. So, when playing against Dungeon, a Necropolis player has to endure one of two things: either they won't have elemental balance, and as a result, they won't have enemy Fire Elementals, or they won't be able to get the "Shriek of Horror" spell.
I wonder, what about Phoenixes? Can you really get two Phoenixes?!

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