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In reply to Happy Life
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#16
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Morning


However, in general, the fourth-tier heroes also deviate from the aforementioned thesis.

And I think I mentioned that they deviate from my argument, but only slightly.

Added 37 minutes ago
Morning

As you know, in Heroes 1 and 2, magic castles had exclusively magic heroes, and combat castles had exclusively combat heroes, and even the guilds were of the same size, so, if you don't hire a non-native hero, the path of development was predetermined. But the creatures themselves were completely different in strength. For example, the Warlock has the strongest creatures, while the Human has weak and mediocre ones (yes, fast construction and so on, but that's not important now). Therefore, a Human or a Barbarian could not simply "easily learn all the same spells" or have enough strength and knowledge to use them effectively, and mass slowing and speeding were separate spells that could appear, or they might not appear in the guild; it is not enough to simply choose "earth" after the first chest and visit a hundred buildings on the map (the game was noticeably faster). At the same time, the Warlock does not end up in a situation where he has a bunch of weaklings who are incapable of opposing a powerful combat hero, because the hero does not have dragons or hydras. And in the first part, spells were generally in charges, replenished in the guild, and if you have little knowledge and strength, you don't cast them often.

Well, firstly, in Heroes 1 and 2, castles or cities of non-starting races appeared slightly less often than usual, so the argument about units doesn't hold water (and even if they don't appear, what are these hydras with 0 defense to me, if I have 10 attack)! Also, in Heroes 1, due to the lack of secondary skills, any hero could learn all the spells at once after building a full guild of mages, so the mages of the first levels were mainly good for minor "trolling" (which the computer readily used) in the form of learning Storm or Armageddon - took a mage of the first level (thankfully, strength +3), learned the spell, attacked a strong hero, cast it, and that's it. And for a normal big battle, mages clearly lost to warriors (especially if the difference in attack and defense is about 10, this is clearly visible in the first two games). Also, + for warriors in the first part of Heroes is that any curse applied to your unit can be removed by any positive spell applied to yourself (in Heroes 5, not every dispel or antimagic will save you from a curse if your magic power is much less than the opponent's magic power, even a small + to mages).

Secondly, I have played through the first and second Heroes many times (I started playing Heroes with the first part in 1997, just so you know), and believe me, I have played as mages and as warriors, and I have not noticed any special difference in the speed of learning magic in the 1st and 2nd parts. Yes, in the 2nd part, mages and sorcerers have the "Intelligence" skill at the beginning, but it is not so difficult for a warrior or barbarian to get this skill (and I can live without powerful magic for a month).

And I also want to add that warriors have a bunch of artifacts that will help them protect themselves from magic even better and destroy the mage to smithereens, for example, if a warrior finds the Cloak of Negation in Heroes 3, then all the mage's efforts are in vain (the only worthwhile counter-artifact for a mage is the Sphere that allows you to remove all magic protection, but if the opponent has a cloak, then you can't cast spells above level 3), and warriors also have various monsters with different magic resistances.

So, I repeat, the "+" that mages have in Heroes 1-3 (okay, let's not touch the 4th) are nothing compared to the strength of warriors. If mages had a chance to cast spells twice, or, for example, in Heroes 2, the "Shield" spell of the first level gave +3 to defense, for example, a mage has +10 magic power, and "Shield" gives not +3, but +10 to defense, then it would be a completely different conversation
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#17
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Since you can't just jump into the same utopia as Solmyr.
But encountering him in the 2nd week wouldn't be a pleasant experience either.
By the way, I think the general slowdown and speed-up are much more of a cheat than Chain Lightning or Stone Rain.
For them, you learn a magical skill, and the chance of it appearing is much lower for a warrior than for a mage.
Both warriors and mages can learn all spells, only the mage gets a small bonus to spell power.
For a warrior to learn spells properly, and not just cast a single Haste for 7 mana, he needs magical skills. Likewise, a mage can learn attack, defense, etc. The difference lies only in the specialization of a particular hero and in the characteristics, but the latter can be corrected with artifacts.
In general, the larger the map, the more effective the warrior is.
Of course, it makes no sense for a mage to run around for 3-4 months! Especially since no one plays that long.
If it doesn't involve tiny maps, attacking magic (like lightning) is simply not effective.
It's not about the map, but about the game time. And it's obvious that it's too expensive to use 500 Archons to destroy a single building, but 2-5 is very effective.
And I also want to add that warriors have a lot of artifacts that will help them defend against magic even better and destroy the mage to smithereens.
Again, you shouldn't drag out the game.
Okay, let's not touch the 4th level skills.
Funny, but in them, the situation is reversed - the longer the game, the stronger the mage. :)


Барон
"Vampires"

Отдай свои прошлые сны,
В сомненьях себя обрети,
В бешеном танце душа кружится!
Не думай, что будет потом,
Здесь и сейчас мы живем,
Стань хоть на миг сам собой, слышишь!



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#18
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5p74, I probably wouldn't agree with you either. A Warrior still needs to go to Utopia, build up an army, and so on. And it also depends on what kind of Mage we're talking about. If it's a specialist in things like Stone Skin, Bloodlust, Resurrection, and Prayer, then Utopia is taken at the same time as the Warrior. It just shouldn't be viewed solely from the perspective of Lightning spells; a well-rounded spellcaster is often more useful. And while the Warrior is gathering forces for Utopia, the Mage can already defeat him. Here, it really depends on when you encounter them. Until the Warrior has about ten units of level 7, he's weaker than the Mage, and even then, it's not a given, as the Mage will likely have them too. Only in long games and at the very beginning is the Warrior stronger; in the middle, the Mage dominates, and between these points, they are generally equal.

As for the 4th game, I disagree with Zubr and Morni. With a fully developed Power skill tree, the Warrior gains immunity to magic and excellent ranged attack. With this setup, an enemy Mage hero is defeated in 1 turn; all that remains is to deal with his army. To be fair, I didn't focus too much on the 4th game, but tests against friends (who, thankfully, all prefer Mages) showed that I'm right. Actually, my favorite hero there is the Fire Guardian, followed by the Paladin, because he has both Sword and Magic skills.

"Let's fly to the most beautiful sky. No matter how many times your wings break, keep trying."©Crono Crusade

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#19
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Firstly, in Heroes 1 and 2, castles or towns of races other than the starting one appeared slightly less often, so the argument about units doesn't hold up (and even if they don't appear, what good are these hydras with 0 defense to a hero if my attack is 10!). Also, in Heroes 1, due to the absence of secondary skills, any hero could, after building a complete guild of mages, learn all spells at once, so low-level mages were mainly good for minor "harassment" (which the computer readily used) in the form of learning Storm or Armageddon - take a level 1 mage (thankfully with +3 strength), learn the spell, attack a strong hero, cast it, and that's it. And for a normal, large battle, mages clearly lost to warriors (especially if the difference in attack and defense is around 10, which is clearly visible in the first two games). Also, another plus for warriors in the first part of Heroes is that any curse placed on your unit can be removed by any positive spell cast on yourself (in Heroes 5, not every dispel or antimagic will save you from a curse if your magic power is much lower than the opponent's magic power, which gives mages some advantage).
There, the increase in health and units is noticeably less than in parts 3 and later, as are the incomes. There are simply no situations where you recruit a hundred titans for a barbarian and crush everything, while a mage casts nukes for 900 hit points. There are fewer artifacts, fewer bonuses on the map. There are no conservatories or Hives in a row of five, the capture of which is what many so-called "competitive games" boil down to. Clearing neutral creatures doesn't come down to rushing two wyverns with seventy hit points on the first day and tenting or shooting defenseless monsters in the corner with cheap archers; flying units can fly to every cell; the battlefield itself is smaller; there are fewer resources and gold, so you have to choose more carefully what to build and who to recruit. Thus, without magic, it is more difficult to maintain even a small army, especially since a knight or barbarian is better off building dwellings first, and the guild, if they even get to it, will be built not very soon. Of course, if we are talking about huge, rich maps with a lot of everything and a lot of towns, then some of your theses are correct, but then this is also true in the fifth game, and no one plays on them anyway.

Added 1 minute ago
With a full build in the Strength branch, a warrior gains immunity to magic and excellent ranged attack. With this setup, an enemy mage hero is defeated in 1 turn, and all that remains is to deal with his army.
No, thanks to line of sight, they won't be defeated in one turn.
My sword, my trusted ally, unphased by my aspect.
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#20
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With a fully developed Strength skill tree, the warrior gains immunity to magic and excellent ranged attack. With this setup, an enemy mage hero can be defeated in one turn; all that remains is to deal with their army.
That's not the point. The warrior excels, especially in the early and mid-game, thanks to a fully developed Warfare skill tree. While the armies are still small. Let's say, with 2-4 creatures, he can easily win, but with 5-8, problems will arise. And the further you go, the more troops there are, and the harder it becomes for the warrior. But the mage, on the other hand, will be able to manipulate these large armies, and the warrior will have a tough time.
There is only one ambiguous point here – the tactician hero. He is useful for both, unless we are talking about a very fast-paced game.


Барон
"Vampires"

Отдай свои прошлые сны,
В сомненьях себя обрети,
В бешеном танце душа кружится!
Не думай, что будет потом,
Здесь и сейчас мы живем,
Стань хоть на миг сам собой, слышишь!



In reply to Zybr
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#21
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Zybr
But meeting him on the 2nd week would also be an unpleasant affair.

I can tell you for sure that in Heroes 3 on random, a mage is weaker.

For example, take the Jebus Cross template; you'd have to be a desperate person to pick Solmyr. Because by the second week, Dragon Utopias are already being taken (by warriors) (and some even crack them on the first week). Solmyr can only nervously smoke on the sidelines. Meanwhile, by the middle of the second week, someone can come to you with Implosion, Armageddon, Chain Lightning, Resurrection, and attention (if needed) they'll put on the Red Orb.
How is he supposed to go to a Utopia? He's even afraid to go into the Griffin Conservatory.

This is for a clear illustration.

And if we take the SMK popular here, then on the first week you build 1-6 in Citadel/Castle or 1-7 in Fort, buy the growth, take all the tasty stuff at the Hive respawn and Conservatory, and go stomp-stomp to the Treasury. Preferably, have Expert Tactics and Air for Mass Haste on top of all that. Even if the mage comes to rush, we calmly give him our main town — it's no longer needed. Meanwhile, we're farming Wyverns from the Hives and cracking the Utopia (where again there's a high chance to find the Cloak or the Red Orb), then we come back (around the 3rd week) and shove his Lightning bolt up his rear.

Why is a warrior stronger? Discussed 100 times already: because it's easier to make a mage out of a warrior.

As a warrior, you quickly crack Hives, farm a powerful stack at the Conservatory, and can either crack the Utopia or grab cool artifacts from the ground. As a result, after getting these artifacts, you become stronger than a mage in both combat and magic stats, while he will be replenishing mana in the town losing tempo. And the Red Orb finishes everything in the warrior's favor without any options.

Zybr

The difference is only in the specific hero's specialization and stats, but the latter can be fixed with artifacts.

Well now I think it's clear who will fix that faster :D

Zybr

Yes, it's obvious that there's no point running around as a mage for 3-4 months! Especially since no one plays that long anyway.

Well, I didn't say 4 months. I only meant 2-3 (4) weeks
Zybr

It's not about the map, but about the game time. Again, you shouldn't drag the game out.

Actually, it is also about the map. For example, on an S map, reaching the opponent is much easier and faster than on an XL with an underground, rather than the opposite.

Added after 13 minutes
Prince_OMEGA
5p74
And it also depends on the mage. If it's a specialist in things like Stone Skin, Bloodlust, Resurrection, Prayer, then the Utopia is taken simultaneously with a warrior.

Now that's truly funny :D
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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#22
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Lider1
Dragon Utopia CONS Hives SHAR
QED. Heroes 3 has always fascinated me with its incredible variety of strategies. And here, the word "template" is absolutely appropriate.
My sword, my trusted ally, unphased by my aspect.
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#23
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The point isn't that. Because of the fully developed combat skills branch, the Warrior excels at the beginning and, to some extent, in the middle of the game, especially when armies are still small. Let's say, with 2-4 units, he can handle it, but with 5-8, he'll start having problems. And the further you go, the more troops there are, and the harder it becomes for the Warrior. But the Mage, on the other hand, will be able to manipulate these large armies, and the Warrior will have a tough time.
And does the Warrior go around alone and without an army? No, I actually like answers like that.
No, thanks to the line of sight, it's not possible.
But that depends on the map. The Warrior can afford to lose 1 turn so that he can reach the Mage with his attack.
Lider1, but I'm sorry, maybe I'm a noob, but I play without the tournament edition. Instead, I have differences between Mages and Warriors and among the castles, because the hero stat growth isn't tweaked, and the difference between them is obvious. And it's a real pain for a Barbarian to get magic, yes, I can learn Wisdom and Magic, but I'll never forget when I had 17 attack, 2 defense, 2 strength, and 1 knowledge. And after that, you tell me that the Warrior will be equal to the Mage in spells, and I'll laugh.

"Let's fly to the most beautiful sky. No matter how many times your wings break, keep trying."©Crono Crusade

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#24
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Morning

We are talking about random maps, not fixed ones.

And it really is like this: HIVES CONFLUENCE Dragon Utopia SHAR.

Sorry that it's not a municipality or a capitol, with Solmir and Malekith in charge. With an incredible variety of strategies :D


Added after 4 minutes

Князь_OMEGA

Tournament Edition is the past; now it's either The Shadow of Death, the immortal classic, or World Tournament (WT) :)

If you are talking about wisdom, it is given at levels 6, 12, and 18, provided that it hasn't been given before.

Read my previous post (21) carefully; I already wrote how a warrior can become a mage.

And the question is phrased slightly differently: "who is better?" And the warrior is better
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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#25
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It depends on the map. A Warrior might be able to afford losing 1 turn to get within range of the Mage.
Do you mean moving the hero? But then the Mage will also be able to move the creature.

I forgot to mention RESTARTS. This is another important part of a successful player's strategy.
My sword, my trusted ally, unphased by my aspect.
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#26
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But doesn't a warrior go around alone and without an army? No, I actually like answers like that.
You should read the whole post carefully. At the beginning, the warrior doesn't need an army; he just needs it as cannon fodder to capture something valuable. He breaks through everything with potions and his own strength. Therefore, he can easily go around without an army and still defeat a small mage's army, either in one go or in two. And mages, if they are not a Chaos or Druid mage, can't do much without an army, and even these two "independent" types require constant mana control. Later on, the warrior also needs to build an army, which is logical. But with only attack and defense bonuses, his army won't go far in a battle against a mage. Without dispel, you might as well surrender immediately.
And for a barbarian to get magic is a real pain, yes, I can learn Wisdom and Magic, but I'll never forget when I had 17 attack, 2 defense, 2 strength, and 1 knowledge. And after that, you tell me that a warrior will be equal to a mage in spells, and I'll laugh.
The thing is, the warrior will loot magic books, as well as artifacts for knowledge and strength, from the drowned


Барон
"Vampires"

Отдай свои прошлые сны,
В сомненьях себя обрети,
В бешеном танце душа кружится!
Не думай, что будет потом,
Здесь и сейчас мы живем,
Стань хоть на миг сам собой, слышишь!



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#27
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But theoretically, a mage can also acquire artifacts that boost attack and defense.
Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день



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#28
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But a mage should also be able to acquire artifacts that boost attack and defense.
Post #21: Leader can help you understand that this is not the case.


Барон
"Vampires"

Отдай свои прошлые сны,
В сомненьях себя обрети,
В бешеном танце душа кружится!
Не думай, что будет потом,
Здесь и сейчас мы живем,
Стань хоть на миг сам собой, слышишь!



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#29
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You should read the entire post carefully. At the beginning, the Warrior doesn't need an army; it only serves as cannon fodder to capture something valuable. He breaks through everything with potions and his own strength. Therefore, he can easily move around without an army and still defeat a small mage's army, either in one go or in two.
The Warrior can move around without an army, but is it worth it?
As for mages, if they are not Chaos or Druid mages, they can't do much without an army, and even these two "independent" types require constant mana control.
Necromancers, I forgot, one of my friends really likes to summon 1,000 skeletons at a time.
Eventually, the Warrior also needs to build an army, which is logical. But with only attack and defense bonuses, his army won't go far in a battle against a mage. Without Dispel, it's better to surrender immediately.
The goal is to quickly eliminate the mage, and then dealing with the army will be easy.

"Let's fly to the most beautiful sky. No matter how many times your wings break, keep trying."©Crono Crusade

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#30
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Post #21: The Leader will help you understand that there isn't.

And what about Solmyr? Are there no other mages? Besides, I play as Necromancers, and there, mages are valued for raising the dead.
Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день