Posts from CIS Club Championship 2010-2011

Thank you. But it could have been avoided. You could have called me, made an offer about the sanatorium, and we could have discussed it calmly.

Well, what would have changed if I had called? The same arguments would have been made. At least this way, there's an opportunity to discuss it collectively. People are just not expressing themselves very actively. Especially considering that after Kyiv, everyone collectively swore that something needed to be changed here. And now, they're silent.

Personally, I don't care where or how, I can hang out at a club for 4 days without getting bored. I just don't want to listen to complaints about it later. That's why I'm staking out my position in the space of opinions so that I can later say with a clear conscience, "You decided this, so deal with it."

The same goes for the legitimacy of the champion – it will be Buchholz, a coin toss, an award, or a game in The King's Crusade (TK3). How they reacted to the tournament organization will determine the champion.

Therefore, I will definitely come, but if everything remains as it is currently announced, I will only come to hang out, drink some beer, and chat with people.

Kirill, aka Merlin, you've turned everything upside down again.
1) How does a trip to Egypt differ globally from a trip to Kyiv, in terms of talking to your wife... so, everyone is just as weird.
2) In Kyiv, there were 4 rounds and 4 days, and we still managed to relax in the evenings. Egypt is planned for 7 days, which means that in addition to just free time from the games, there will be another 3 full free days for relaxation.
3) The idea of letting your wife go is nonsense. Does anyone plan to leave the hotel grounds and wander around the cities, and then we'll all get on a local bus and go to Cairo... don't make me laugh, Merlin (i.e., yourself).
....
In general, I want to combine relaxation and a tournament.

This statement is doubly offensive to me. First, I didn't turn anything upside down, and second, not again. My arguments regarding family are based solely on the understanding of NORMAL family relationships as the union of two people into one whole (a family is when you are together, not apart). You are not only unmarried, but also young at heart.
Don't you really see the difference between Kyiv and Egypt? Or between a Castle and Barbarians?
Get married and run two scenarios: go to Egypt without your wife (and tell her that you are going to "relax" without her), and then go with your wife, but don't let her leave the hotel grounds, and don't leave yourself...
Since I have never been to Egypt, I would spend all my time getting to know another country, another people, and another culture + swimming in the sea. And I would only sleep "on the hotel grounds," and eat if it's "all-inclusive."
As for the timing, who prevents you from arriving earlier and hanging out in Moscow or Michurinsk, or hanging out in Moscow on the way back? Do you want some exotic food? Lobster with both?
"I think you're eating too much... I mean, you're getting fat" (from "Shirley-Myrli").
Playing in a club creates a completely special atmosphere around it. The very atmosphere that we unfortunately don't have at our current apartment gatherings. For me, any intellectual activity, whether it's Heroes or poker, is work (and in the case of poker, it's also physical work for me). I'm not going to relax in the sense of unwinding. I'm going to work and relax.
Mee, you are going primarily to RELAX, as the tournament is in second place in your own sentence.

So, what do you say - can I order tickets while they are still available? And I'll go on credit (because I'm unemployed due to various mass layoffs)...

Added after 4 hours 17 minutes
By the way, please provide an estimate of the costs per person, excluding airfare (I have already found the tickets). Preferably detailed.

.
Dear finalists, please answer honestly: who among you prioritizes Heroes at the upcoming event?

I'll try to answer: in my opinion, Term, Bayazet, 51-70% Alex + locals + Merlin :D I interpret the silence of the others as a reluctance to offend Eric, as the organizer, who does a lot for the Heroes community.

I'm reading all the messages on this topic and related ones, as an independent observer and a big fan of some of the players. Vik is absolutely right. I also fully support Peterius – organizing a FINAL without considering the interests of the TOP-3 players from Ukraine is a big mistake. I still haven't seen an answer to the question that many are asking Nagana: How does he plan to hold 5 rounds in 4 days? ALL previous online tournaments over the past 2-3 years have shown that the number of fully played rounds is LESS (or, rarely, equal) than the number of game days. What tools, techniques, or schemes does Nagana intend to use to run the tournament?

I'll try to answer: IMO, Term, Bayazet, 51-70% of Lexa + locals + Merlin. I interpret the silence of the others as a desire not to offend Eric, as the organizer who does quite a lot for the Heroes world.

2 Kobra.
I also have great respect for you; you've been among the top players throughout the entire existence of Heroes 3, and you're a sociable person. But let's be clear.
Write about the others by name. I read the threads—everyone who could speak out has done so.
Only 4 of the finalists are skeptical.

You and Mee—for a simple reason. You have to go to Egypt and Michurinsk at the same time in May. If Lord Dim, Gunnar, and LeBron are definitely going to be there, then you'll be in Egypt too. No offense, but why not just write that "guys, it's a pity, the dates overlap, I can't turn down Egypt."
Maybe next year we'll manage to go to Egypt together.

As for who wants to play—we'll see. I got the impression that Term and Dust and the others are going specifically for the tournament.

The same goes for the legitimacy of the champion—it'll be Buchholz, or a coin toss, or an award, or a game in TK3. The champion will be as good as the attitude toward the tournament organization.

So I'll come regardless, but if everything stays as announced now, then only to hang out, drink some beer, and chat with people.

2 Wicc
Actually, what did we agree on? I take care of all organizational issues, and you handle the judging—and we don't interfere with each other.
And now everything is being rewritten; you're interfering in organizational issues based on the claim that it will hinder your ability to judge.

Now you're coming just to hang out and drink some beer...

No, this doesn't work for me. I physically cannot both organize everything and judge. In Krasnodar, Alan Prost was the organizer and Chaos was the judge, and both worked their tails off. Therefore, you are the judge. If you feel that you cannot be objective, let me know. I will handle it alone.

How can the tournament be conducted? I think about 20 people will gather, but let's say 24—if you do the math, there's no difference.

With 20 participants:
Round 1 - 10 winners, 10 losers.
Round 2 - 5 winners.
Round 3 - 2 or 3 winners.
Round 4 - 1 or 2 winners.

With 24 participants:
Round 1 - 12 winners, 12 losers.
Round 2 - 6 winners.
Round 3 - 3 winners.
Round 4 - 1 or 2 winners.

So there is no difference between 20 and 24 participants; there will still be 4 or maximum 5 rounds. In the worst case, a grand final is played between two winners—that would be the 5th round, if you will. Total: maximum 5 days.
But remembering Krasnodar and other tournaments, by Round 4 there won't be 24 players left anyway. As written above, some come just to hang out, lose one game, and that's it. Some can handle two or three, then either hang out or go home early.
There will be conscientious players who play all 4 rounds, even if not all of them win—it depends on how it goes.

In Krasnodar-2004, there were 60 people including guests. Of those, about 25 remained for the final; others stayed for one, two, or 3-4 days.

How does he want to run 5 rounds in 4 days?

In 4 days—4 rounds. The fifth round—if it's needed—is played by two winners for the championship and everything that comes with it.

Added after 1 hour 42 minutes
And also, before opening the topic, I would like to bring together all the questions that may arise.

How many of us will there be?
Those who are ready to participate in the final and confirm it:
1. Bayazet - 2010 champion.
2. Scorp -
3. Mizrael -
4. Lexa -
5. Preds
6. AlextheGreat
7. Vitalic
8. Yama-Dharma
9. Term
10. Dust
11. Horn
12. Wicc
13. Merlin — although the qualifying tournament hasn't actually finished, three from the qualifiers are eligible to play in the final. I hope more than just one of them will be able to come to the final.
14. Porizatel, possibly Mike—as far as is known now, they may make it to the final. According to Bayazet's message, Porizatel is ready to come to Michurinsk; we are waiting.
I chatted a lot with Mike from St. Petersburg in ICQ even before Kyiv, but he didn't pass then, taking 4th place. We look forward to hosting this strong player.
I met Kral in St. Petersburg several years ago; although he only plays fixed maps, it's possible he can also come.

Those with a lower probability:

Kobra and Mee—unfortunately, the tournament in Michurinsk overlaps with the trip to Egypt. I respect these people; even if we've polemicized, I would be glad to see them at the tournament.
Dirty Player—unfortunately, real-life problems. But there is still time, and I will definitely talk to him about this in private messages, maybe something will work out...

No information on two players—Napalm from Kingisepp and a third player from Yekaterinburg. It is known that 911fx intended to go to Egypt, but nothing is known about Michurinsk. I would be happy to welcome Sergey; he's visited me twice, we played together in St. Petersburg, and he does good work for Heroes.

Who won't be there:
Deep Mike
Piterius
Forrest
Volodymyr

It's a pity if no one comes from Ukraine. But the question has become acute for me too—either the proposed dates and conditions, or I cancel the tournament because otherwise I can't run it. I chose the latter.

As of today, 14, possibly 15 people remain as tournament finalists. Three—Kobra, Mee, and Dirty Player—have objective difficulties participating.

There are also three spots for Ukraine; I am ready to hear proposals, with the only condition being that they must be those who played in the qualifiers.

Besides the Heroes 3 tournament, Qwerty and I plan to organize a HoMM2 tournament. Approximately 6-7 participants. According to my calculations, besides the aforementioned Horn and Dust and Qwerty, GreatGenius and others may come. In April, I will have several arbitrations in Moscow; together with Qwerty and hopefully Oxygen, we'll resolve a couple of Heroes issues.

Guests. Stinger, Matrosov will come; also, several female Heroes players with their husbands are seriously considering coming, but I'll write for sure when everything is settled and they have train tickets. Therefore, finalists can come with their wives; it would be boring for the spouses in a women's company—I hope it won't be.
Plus, a couple of former Michurinsk residents are coming to cheer, and three young guys to learn and perhaps play against some of the veterans.

Total—approximately 16 to 20 HoMM3 players, 4-6 HoMM2 players, and a dozen spectators. I can't write exactly yet, but it will be known for sure in April.

Fans are always welcome; come and get to know the Heroes crowd. We argue on the forums, but in real life we are quite adequate.

Now regarding dates. 4 rounds are played over 4 days. If about 20 people gather, I posted the calculation—two winners with 4 victories play each other for 1st place. This is essentially a grand final and Round 5 simultaneously.

Total: 5 days. Dates—from April 30 to May 4, exactly 5 days.

Accommodation.
Option 1—Hotel "Michurinsk", in the city center; I wrote about it. 1100 per day per person in a double room, not far from the club.

Option 2. Kalinin Sanatorium. 500 rubles per day, double rooms. According to reviews, it seems okay there. The advantage is that it's inexpensive and we are all together.
There will be no problems with buses. At 9:00 AM we go to the city, have breakfast, or arrange breakfast at the sanatorium—there is a cafeteria there.

We arrive at the club at 10:00 or 10:30. We play for 12 hours. There's pizza nearby, cafes, and three large grocery stores, of which "Iceberg" is better. No one will go hungry.

After the round ends, if games are dragged out—at 10-11 PM—we decide together whether to go straight to the sanatorium or have some fun in the city at a club or cafe. If necessary, a taxi will easily take you to the sanatorium at any time. In general, taxis are cheap, 50 rubles to any part of town, but they'll obviously charge more for the sanatorium.

Those who finished quickly, or won/lost and were eliminated from the tournament but intend to watch the final until the end, can find entertainment. Bowling, billiards, football, blitz chess, or just walk around the city.
The city is small, 100 thousand residents, a science town, quite clean. It has its own Arbat—a large pedestrian street where people play guitar and paragliders fly in the sky; there's a Recreation Park there, always crowded. There are a couple of decent night clubs. There is no criminal environment; you can safely walk through the city at night with a girlfriend.

Eric, I'm ready to help with the technical aspects and resolving contentious issues. But I'm not going to stick to the schedule. Because in order to do something, you need to believe that it will work out. And I don't have that belief. I think that the proposed schedule is unrealistic for many reasons. We might be able to figure out how to make it work at the base, but it's definitely not feasible at the club. Furthermore, the 5th round isn't just for contenders for the title. There will definitely be more than one prize money spot, so those vying for the top three should also participate. In Kyiv, there were four such matches that determined the standings. Also, when will the finalists play? Will it be delayed by a day? Another question about the last day: people will already be heading to the train station in the evening, so only those who are driving home can stay longer. That is, the 4th day will be a bit rushed. And most importantly, how can we fit in barbecues, billiards, and other activities? It's simple at the base: whoever has finished playing can go. And you can bring barbecues right to the computers for those who are playing. So, the group won't be scattered. At the club, however, there are a lot of logistical problems. We need to go in an organized manner, which means leaving those who haven't finished playing at the club while the rest go to have fun. And everyone finishes at different times, some at 4, some at 5, some at 6. There will be a constant influx of people, how can we organize that within the club? And by 10 pm, not everyone will be finished; some will have to play into the night. That's what's good about the base: it allows for very flexible scheduling of events.

Eric, I'm ready to help with the technical aspects and resolving controversial situations. But I'm not going to stick to the schedule. Because in order to do something, you need to believe that it will work out. And I don't have that belief. I think that the proposed schedule is unrealistic for many reasons. We might be able to figure out how to manage it at the base, but it's definitely unrealistic at the club.

Yur, everything will be fine. We'll have a good rest and play. I haven't written about the second game yet, but there will be a champion there too.

Furthermore, the 5th round is not only for contenders for the title. There will definitely be more than one monetary prize, so those vying for the top three should also play. In Kyiv, there were 4 such matches that determined the standings.

Yes, and indeed, we need to ask the players for their opinion on the prizes. I have a prize and a cup for the winner. If the entry fees are 2,000, then about 40,000 will be collected. I'm not sure, I would give everything to the winner. So that they play harder. But it's up to the players to decide.

Also, what about the final day - will the finalists have to stay an extra day?

Yes. On the 5th day, let's say there are two finalists. They play for the championship, the cup, the prizes, and all the money. There will be something to watch and comment on.
By the way, the club has a good internet connection, so we can also broadcast the games.

Another question about the last day - in the evening, people will already be heading to the train station, only those who are going to drive home at night will be able to stay. That is, the 4th day will be a bit rushed.

It's always been like that, if it were possible to live without working... In Krasnodar, I really wanted to see the grand final, Dim, Fedor, Andre, and Bishop were still there... but I had to go to work in the morning.

And by the final, less than half of those who arrived remained, the rest were watching the broadcasts.

And most importantly, how can we fit in barbecues, billiards, and other things? At the base, it's simple - whoever is done playing goes. And you can bring barbecues right to the computer for those who are playing. That is, the group doesn't scatter.

But it's boring to be at the base all the time. Besides poker and barbecues...
Let's say everyone is at the club for one day, playing... they finish the round at 10 pm.
We can rent a cafe and have a general banquet, or we can rent a banquet hall in the sanatorium... or, if the weather is good, we can have a barbecue until 3 am...
Or we can go straight to the sanatorium to sleep and recharge (like poker).

After the second or third day, some people will be eliminated. Some will continue to play, and you can't force others. And with so many guests and spectators, we can have a blitz chess tournament and a soccer game on the field (there's a field nearby), or a disco at the club.

At the club, there are a lot of logistical problems. We need to go in an organized way, that is, leave those who haven't finished playing at the club and go have fun ourselves. And everyone finishes at different times, some at 4 pm, some at 5 pm, some at 6 pm. There will be a constant influx, how can we organize it within the club?

Just like it was in Krasnodar. Some played quickly and ran to see the city, some went to a nightclub, some drank with old comrades (that happened too). The computer club was like a base, people came and went.

Let's say, at 12:00 am or 10:00 pm, a bus will come and take us to the sanatorium. If someone wants to leave earlier, there are minibuses. If someone wants to leave later, there are taxis. We're not kids. If you name the sanatorium, all the taxi drivers know it.

And by 10 pm, not everyone will be finished, some will have to play at night.

If 12 hours wasn't enough, they can save the game and finish it at home, on their laptops. In other words, at the sanatorium, and it will be more fun for people to watch.

The main question is, how to incorporate barbecues, billiards, and other activities into this? At the base, it's simple – whoever finishes playing goes. And those still playing can bring barbecues right to their computers. This keeps everyone together.

However, a club presents a lot of logistical problems. You need to go there in an organized manner, meaning leaving those who haven't finished playing at the club while the rest go to have fun. Also, everyone finishes at different times – some at 4 PM, some at 5 PM, some at 6 PM. This creates a constant influx of people, and how do you organize that within the club? And by 10 PM, not everyone will be finished; some will have to play into the night.

That's why the base is good – it allows for very flexible scheduling of events.

Actually, I agree with this. People from Siberia have been playing where they live for a long time (and they even play hot-seat). This allows for communication, a feast, and playing all at the same time. For socializing, this is definitely a PLUS, but I'm not sure about the quality of the game of Heroes.

By the way, please provide an estimate of the costs per person, excluding airfare (I've already found the tickets). Preferably a detailed one.

2 Merlin.
A large new topic about the final will be posted later. Excluding costs – we'll calculate.

Let's assume a person decides to play for all five days. They arrive on the 30th, then the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and on the morning of the 4th of May, they can collect their belongings and go to the club to catch a train from there (a 5-minute walk from the club, one bus stop away).
Since they didn't stay on the fifth day, it's 4 days x 500 rubles = 2,000 rubles for accommodation.

Food in the city is very cheap. You can also eat at the sanatorium's cafeteria; I'll find out all the prices there. I'll go to this sanatorium tomorrow and check everything out.

Eric, I've been telling you for days now that you're living in 2004, in Krasnodar. You have that championship before your eyes, and you want to
repeat it. But that ship has long sailed; times, people, and Heroes have all changed. What we'll have here is not a repeat of Krasnodar-2004, but a repeat of Kiev-2010 — the participant list even matches by about 70-80%. Yet you stubbornly ignore those who live in the present and know how things actually stand.

In Krasnodar, apparently everyone was on vacation, so you could leisurely put together a schedule. But we're taking 1-2 days off work, meaning it's a just-in-time system: a group check-in on the morning of the 1st, a packed program, and a group departure on the evening of the 4th. You can't drag things out even half an hour beyond the allotted time, let alone a whole day. This demands much greater precision in organizational matters and schedule planning. If the train leaves at 6:00 AM, then the result of the last round must be ready no later than 5:30 AM, the money shoved in hand on the go, and the person thrown onto the train.

You gave the example of the Michurinsk qualifier. Let me remind you how it went — Stinger skipped the 1st round, barely managed to finish the last round with a taxi already waiting on the street, didn't lose a single game during the tournament, but ended up in 3rd place. If the CIS Championship turns into the same kind of mess, I'm afraid it will be the last such championship.

So don't puff out your chest like, "I'm such an experienced organizer, so my opinion is the only correct one, and everyone else can go to hell." You've organized other tournaments, with different participants and different requirements. The CIS Championship differs from them quite significantly.

Anyway, I'll go to that sanatorium tomorrow and check everything out

Uh-huh, and while you're at it, check into the room for the games.

Hi everyone!
I'll be there (90-95% sure), but I'll give my spot to Porizatel or whoever is next in line from our qualifier, because even though I've played a few random games recently, it's only convinced me that I'm not competitive in them. :smile39: I'll help the organizers and judges in any way I can.
Regarding the topic that was raised, I think the issue of accommodation is secondary. The deadlines are important, but with a proper approach, they can be met in any scenario. What prevents someone from taking the save from a long-running game at the club and finishing it on laptops in the hotel? Of course, it's more convenient to play there, but who can guarantee that there won't be any issues? This issue also needs to be discussed in advance + laptops and cables should be counted to make sure everyone has enough. If we play at the club, it's better to stay in the city, preferably close to the club, to minimize travel time. Considering the size of the city, it will probably be no more than 15 minutes. The losses from participants spreading out are usually much greater. :smile22:

Well, what can you do? I'm immediately dismissing the idea of a hotel at 1100 rubles per day (as suggested in December) – it's just too much for such a small town... For 33,000 rubles a month, you could rent an apartment in Moscow (1100 multiplied by 30). Therefore, the idea of staying in a sanatorium seems like the best option.
Regarding the club – there's a certain disagreement again – why pay 800-900 rubles (I remember in Yekaterinburg, computers were rented out at the championships for exactly half the price, based on the number of participants, and there were many casual spectators, and we didn't even need the internet), when you can play everything on laptops – and then go to the city or relax there – in the sanatorium. But that's up to each individual to decide, as with everything in life. I repeat – for me personally, the club creates a special atmosphere, and the only thing that raises doubts is the price...
"I'm not greedy, I'm just resourceful..." (from the cartoon "The Tale of Domovenok Kuzya").

Yur, did you even ask me, for example?

Maybe I'm not comfortable playing on a laptop?
The issue isn't just about time, but also about the mode of operation, damn it, of the brain... or rather, what's left of it :D

Speaking for myself, a sanatorium definitely won't provide the right environment, and the constant activity on a laptop screen will overload what's left of my brain even more than a few sleepless hours.

So, this "improvement" in organization is by no means a straightforward thing.
Our world, unfortunately, is far from perfect.
And it's impossible, in principle, to make things so good that they can't be improved further.
All decisions, as a rule, involve compromises – if there aren't enough resources to create ideal conditions.
In this case, unfortunately, there aren't.

BUT
Eric is the organizer.
He takes responsibility for reconciling the contradictions and achieving a result that satisfies all participants.
And he puts his heart and soul, and maximum effort, into it.
I repeat, Eric is responsible for making sure everything is as good as possible; he wants what's best and does everything he can to achieve it.
And I trust him in this matter, even though I'm generally quite critical.
So, a resort is the way to go.
Laptops for those who take the main goal of the event seriously – that's fine; it will help them catch up. But moving the tournament to a home-based format has both advantages and disadvantages.
So, let the organizers, whose competence no one has ever doubted, decide what the Tournament will be like, and the dissatisfied can go elsewhere!
But some of Vika's suggestions are worth considering – but only as a supplement to the overall policy, not as an alternative.
Personally, I can stay up for a couple of nights if necessary – in Moscow, it was after a sleepless night and a party that I felt best ;) And I almost fell asleep on the first day of the tournament with Vitalik not because of that, but thanks to the cognac :smile43: And I slept for about 4 hours before the second day... but I was still able to keep going, so the living conditions aren't a hindrance for those who want to participate.
Everyone should decide for themselves what they need, within the framework of Eric's conditions.... But why, while complaining about the time constraints, didn't Yur suggest simultaneous matches for the players who are falling behind, since the tournament engine allows it – that's strange.
In my opinion, that's the lesser of two evils ;) Even extra computers from the club aren't needed – two Heroes windows can easily run on a basic machine

Vova, go to the garden yourself. Three organizers essentially started a dispute, and I don't understand why you're adding your two cents here – you're judging everyone based on yourself and making corresponding conclusions, while simultaneously complaining that you weren't asked about something. The logic is top-notch.
In general, your judgments show a certain bias with a slightly veiled support for a specific side.
But no one is disputing anything anymore; all that remains is to vote for statistical purposes to see who will come and who won't, based on what has been proposed, and to try to be more careful with expressions so as not to exacerbate contradictions and disputes.

Vova, go to the garden yourself. Three organizers essentially started the dispute, and I don't understand why you're sticking your two cents in here – you're judging everyone based on yourself and drawing conclusions accordingly, while simultaneously complaining that you weren't asked about something. The logic is top-notch.
In general, your judgments clearly show a certain bias with a slightly veiled support for a specific side.
But no one is disputing anything anymore; all that's left is to vote to gather statistics on who will come and who won't, based on what has been proposed, and to try to be more careful with expressions so as not to exacerbate contradictions and disputes.

Petya! There's only one organizer – Eric!
Vik – the judge
Please, don't twist things.
Therefore, this isn't bias, but simply support for the organizers.
Who, by the way, are willing to accommodate everyone – but within certain limits, because reality isn't limitless.
And I don't see a third party – maybe you can enlighten me?
And about the complaints – where did you see them?
Or are you judging everyone based on yourself? :(
Are you, as an adult, familiar with the concept of rhetoric? ;)

P.S. If you consider Egypt to be the third party, then that's just not serious... it seemed like that issue was resolved a long time ago....)