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Posts from Necropolis versus Academy.

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In reply to antonag07
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#49
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antonag07
In this case, Lordesat is right - the "Lord of the Dead" skill does not provide a bonus to dark energy.
I also confirm that he is right. That is, I don't see any point in leveling up this perk if you're not aiming for a Single Attribute build. It's useless. At least make it a 50% bonus... Its roots go back to version 1.0, where it was much more useful. They probably just forgot to change it or didn't bother... :(
In reply to Dyrman
#50
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Froska
I also maintain that I am right. That is, I don't see the point in leveling up this perk if you're not aiming for a "Supreme Archmage" build. So, it's useless. Even if it gave a 50% bonus... But its roots go back to version 1.0, where it was much more useful. They probably just forgot or didn't bother to change it... :(

It seems that some misunderstanding is brewing again... Lordesat is right that the "Lord of the Dead" skill does not provide a flow of dark energy. However, claiming that this skill is useless based solely on this fact is incorrect - because, in addition to increasing the "Knowledge" parameter by +1, the skill also enhances "Necromancy" by 5% - which is quite noticeable in the early stages of the game. And if it enhanced it by 50%, it would become almost a cheat.
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#51
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Nah...
Counterarguments (some are quite compelling):
1) We won't be able to research Eagle Eye and what's behind it!
2) We won't be able to research Magic Affinity!
3) I almost never have enough Dark Energy to raise all the suggested creatures within a week!!!
Even if we believe the manual, and it sometimes lies or doesn't say everything, we get the following effect:
Health of raised units = Health of killed units * Necromancy, Dark Energy is spent on creatures. That is, since there isn't enough to raise them, sometimes quite a lot, we get that the Health of raised units has an upper limit. Let's say it's 50. We fought 10 battles. We killed 200 HP in ten battles. Even with a well-developed Necromancy, we can raise (with a large amount of Dark Energy) 60 HP, with a Lich Lord 70 HP, but the limit is 50! We won't raise more than 50 HP (we are limited by Dark Energy).
Even in the late game with 4 developed heroes, when a huge amount of undead is raised in grand battles, we won't achieve the result, because there will already be huge armies, but they, because they have a huge amount of HP, will be raised according to the scheme described above.
For me, the Graduate perk is even more useful than this one...

So, what's the appeal then?
P.S. I would like to understand the position of antonag07. Maybe it will help my gaming experience, but as I noticed (for now, IMHO, unless I am convinced otherwise), it is useless if you are not aiming for a Soulbinder build.
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#52
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I think that the Necromancer would be useful, for example, on maps with many low-level neutral creatures, skeletons, or zombies. Then, with the Necromancer's amulet, you can gather a truly large army. And the fact that the Necromancer doesn't provide a bonus to Might is true.
Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день



In reply to Dyrman
#53
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Froska
Nah...
Counterarguments (some are quite weighty)
1) We won't be able to research Eagle Eye and what's behind it!
2) We won't be able to research Magic Affinity!
3) I almost never have enough Dark Energy to raise all the suggested creatures during the week!!!
Even if we believe the manual, and it sometimes lies or omits something :) , we get the effect:
Health of raised units = Health of killed units * Necromancy, dark energy is spent on creatures. That is, since there is not enough to raise them, sometimes quite a lot, we will get that the health of raised units has an upper limit. Let it be 50. We fought 10 battles. We killed 200 HP in ten battles. Even with a developed Necromancy, we can raise (with a large amount of Dark Energy) 60 HP, with Death Lord 70 HP, but the limit is 50! We will not raise more than 50 HP (we are limited by Dark Energy).
Even in the late game with 4 developed heroes, when a bunch of undead are raised in grand battles, we will not achieve the result, because there will already be huge armies, but they, because they have a huge amount of HP, will be raised according to the scheme described above.
For me, the Graduate perk is even more useful than this one...

What is the beauty of it then?
P.S. I would like to understand the position of antonag07. Maybe it will help my gaming experience, but as I noticed (for now, IMHO, unless I am convinced otherwise), it is useless if you are not striving for Soul Armor.

Of course, Dark Energy runs out quickly both in the first week, when the hero is just starting from level 1, and in the later stages of the game (I usually run out of it no later than the third day). The point is to use it (Dark Energy) as efficiently as possible. At the start, skeletons are our main force - ideally, it would be good to immediately convert all Dark Energy into simple skeletons (by killing, for example, peasants or goblins), and then you can upgrade and start dealing with more serious neutrals. Without Necromancy enhancers (pillar 10%, "Death Lord" 5%), we will raise only 8 skeletons from 55 peasants. And don't try to convince me that you will have the opportunity to fight dozens of battles with neutrals suitable for converting into skeletons during the week - most often you have to beat everyone подряд (and raise everyone подряд so that the Dark Energy points don't go to waste).

Of course, "Magic Affinity", "Uncover Secret" and others also have many advantages, which are often more significant than the increased raising of skeletons - however, this option is quite viable even without the "Amulet of Necromancy".
It is clear that Dark Energy runs out quickly both in the first week, when the hero is just starting from level 1, and in the later stages of the game (I usually run out of it no later than the third day). The point is to use it (Dark Energy) as efficiently as possible. At the start, skeletons are our main force - ideally, it would be good to immediately convert all Dark Energy into simple skeletons (by killing, for example, peasants or goblins), and then you can upgrade and start dealing with more serious neutrals. Without Necromancy enhancers (pillar 10%, "Death Lord" 5%), we will raise only 8 skeletons from 55 peasants. And don't try to convince me that you will have the opportunity to fight dozens of battles with neutrals suitable for converting into skeletons during the week - most often you have to beat everyone подряд (and raise everyone подряд so that the Dark Energy points don't go to waste).

Of course, "Magic Affinity", "Uncover Secret" and others also have many advantages, which are often more significant than the increased raising of skeletons - however, this option is quite viable even without the "Amulet of Necromancy".
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#54
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Regarding the Necromancer, one *expert* told me that the dark energy doesn't increase there; instead, the **number of undead creatures raised increases!**
If there's an error, it's only in the perk's description!

За кланы! За кровь!
In reply to Ereb
#55
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Ereb
One expert told me that the dark energy doesn't increase there; instead, the number of undead raised increases!
If there's an error, it's only in the perk's description!
There is no error there because the description of the skill in the skill tree and the manual don't mention adding dark energy. So, it's time to stop these speculations.
In reply to antonag07
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#56
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antonag07
At the start, skeletons are our main offensive force – ideally, it would be good to immediately convert all available experience points into simple skeletons (by killing, for example, peasants or goblins), and then proceed with upgrades and start dealing with more serious neutral creatures.
Actually, it's not that easy to get undead creatures at the start... And why would you even need them?
antonag07


Without Necromancy boosters (the 10% "Necromancy" skill and the 5% "Undead" skill), we can only raise 8 skeletons from 55 peasants. And don't try to convince me that you'll have the opportunity to fight dozens of battles within a week with neutral creatures suitable for converting into skeletons – most often, you have to attack everyone (and raise everything, so that the experience points don't go to waste).
Don't try to convince me that the skill is important in Necromancy! It's more important for the experience point bonus – that's the main criterion!
Besides, you can always raise a decent number of skeletons at the start + it's not easy to get undead creatures at the start + there are other perks... therefore, the importance of this perk tends towards 0! That is, it is useless, with some reservations!
antonag07

Of course, "Magic Attraction" and "Unveiling Secrets," etc., also have many advantages, which are often more significant than the increased skeleton raising rate – however, this option is quite viable even without the "Amulet of the Necromancer."
All options are viable. But this one only has some value thanks to the skill points.
Otherwise, it's useless compared to the rest of the upgrades. And you can't consider it in isolation – in that case, even "Morale" for a necromancer hero has "value."
So, I'm just more convinced of my own rightness. Even those "fantastic" 5 skeletons in the first week won't make a difference when we have hundreds of them.
In reply to Dyrman
#57
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Froska
Actually, it's not that easy to get dead creatures at the start of the game... And why would you even need them?
I think I already explained it above – to enhance "Necromancy" (and even explained why enhancing "Necromancy" is needed).
Froska
You don't need to convince me that the monument is important in Necromancy! It's more important for the increase in attack points – that's the main criterion!

That's exactly the point: the monument serves a dual purpose – it provides an increase in attack points and enhances "Necromancy" by 10% (and I also explained above why this enhancement is needed – especially since we will only get the attack point increase next week, but the enhancement will be available on the day of construction, which means we can conduct a series of necessary battles with already enhanced "Necromancy").
Froska
Besides, there will always be enough skeletons at the start.

Well, if you conduct 3 battles with 55-60 peasants each and replenish your army with 8 skeletons after each battle (a total of 24), and that's considered normal, then I don't even know what to consider abnormal...

P.S. If you don't have an external building of level 1, it's better not to approach serious monsters (you can practice on the "Grab and Run" map and compare your results – I think you'll quickly feel the difference, even with the presence of "extra" 20 skeletons).
Froska
+ it's not easy to get dead creatures at the start + there are other perks... therefore, the importance of the perk tends to 0! That is, it is useless, with some reservations!

So, does the difficulty of obtaining the skill automatically lead to the conclusion that its usefulness tends to zero?
In reply to antonag07
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#58
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antonag07
I think I already explained it above – to enhance "Necromancy" (and even explained why enhancing "Necromancy" is needed).
Stop repeating the obvious. We don't need to enhance Necromancy without increasing Spell Power. Why pay more if the result is the same?

antonag07

That's the point, the pillar is a dual-purpose object – it serves as both an increase in Spell Power and a 10% enhancement to "Necromancy" (and I also explained above why this enhancement is needed – especially since we will only get the Spell Power increase next week, but the enhancement will be available on the day of construction, meaning we can conduct a number of necessary battles with already enhanced "Necromancy").
Really? I was only talking about the main criterion.
And: With already enhanced Necromancy, but without Spell Power, who will we raise?
antonag07

So, does the difficulty of obtaining a skill automatically lead to the conclusion that its usefulness is close to zero?
I explained it. If it's not clear: the main criterion for the uselessness of a skill is:
- Comparing it to other skills that we could take + "unnecessary enhancement"
And besides, everything depends on many factors, but the greater difficulty of upgrading is only in 3rd place... the conclusions are obvious...
Secondary factors are of little importance when there is a greater variety of primary ones. Therefore, under certain conditions, as described above, the difficulty of obtaining it is not expressed in that sense. Some blame Lordesat, but they themselves hold a flawed point of view and are looking for excuses....
I'll repeat once more: you can't compare something that gives a benefit with nothing. You always need to compare it with the available options.
I'm ending this one-on-one discussion because it's pointless to continue in this situation, and it's also off-topic :(
Let everyone decide what is more important to them...
In reply to Dyrman
#59
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Froska
Enough with stating the obvious. We don't need to enhance Necromancy without increasing Mana. Why pay more if the result is the same?
We don't pay more (or less) for building a tower – its cost is the same regardless of the development path. And the result is not the same (for comparison, kill peasants before building the tower, and then kill them again after; the difference will be in the suggested number of units that can be raised). Enhancing "Necromancy" is an important factor, but if someone stubbornly doesn't think it's necessary to note this, then that's their right. My task is to explain the benefits of enhancement to those who are interested. If someone is doing well without enhancement, no one forces them to enhance "Necromancy" (and therefore, striving for "Lord of the Dead" is pointless for them – because they still don't plan to take advantage of this enhancement).
Froska


Really? I was only talking about the main criterion.
And also: With Necromancy already enhanced, but without Mana, who will we raise?
I have repeatedly tried to convey the main idea – it is more important not the number of Mana points (especially since in the first/second week, its amount will be approximately the same with any development scheme), but its beneficial investment.
Froska


I explained. If it's not clear: the main criterion for the uselessness of the skill is:
- Comparing it with other skills that we could take + "unnecessary enhancement"
And otherwise, everything depends on many factors, but this does not make the difficulty of upgrading only the 3rd most important thing... the conclusions are obvious...
secondary factors are no longer of great importance with a greater variety of the first ones. Therefore, under certain conditions, as described above, the difficulty of obtaining it is not expressed in this sense. Some blame Lordesat, but they themselves stand on a lame point of view, and are looking for excuses....
I will repeat once again: you cannot compare something that gives with nothing. You always need to compare with the available options.
I am ending this one-on-one discussion, because it is pointless to continue in this situation, and it is also off-topic :(
Let everyone decide what is more important to them...
I see the comparison with nothing in your reasoning – "we don't need to enhance Necromancy, we don't use it" and so on – I am trying to clarify my position regarding the unsubstantiated thesis about the uselessness of the "Lord of the Dead" skill, because it is quite obvious to me that a certain number of players do not have sufficient information about the game mechanics.
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#60
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Froska is right that taking the Necromancer at the beginning, as antonag07 suggests, is pointless because, firstly, it's difficult, secondly, there are more useful skills that increase necromancy, such as developed/skilled necromancy, and thirdly, an additional 5% skeletons won't make a difference; it's easier to build Desecrated Tombs. In general, it's only useful in certain cases – either there's nowhere to spend the talent points (as in the case of mentorship), or there are too few neutral creatures, or it's a single-adventure scenario (SA). However, we've strayed a bit from the topic. Are there any more suggestions regarding skill builds and artifacts for the Necromancer against the Academy? Let's take Zoltan, as he's the most suitable hero for this purpose. I'm considering taking the Light skill.
Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день



In reply to Саня Изи
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#61
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And what’s the point of taking Light skills? What advantages will Necropolis gain from this, and what else is recommended to develop in conjunction with Light? Lordesat would really like to see a complete picture of developing Necropolis with Light skills. It’s just not entirely clear what the purpose of Light is for Necropolis when only a partial development plan is available...
Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
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ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"
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#62
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The point of taking light creatures in a late-game battle against the Academy is as follows: firstly, you need to defend against Armageddon, that's one thing, and secondly, you need anti-magic to prevent the use of Sandro's Cloak. And of course, light spells will also be a nice addition; mass evasion and stone skin will come in handy, because the mages have a lot of archers in their units. And of course, fire resistance. And you can also take Twilight creatures.
Now, another question. I don't want to create a new thread, so let's discuss it right here. The question is: how to defend against the Necromancer's Armageddon when using the "Horde" skill? I'm really struggling with this.
Смысла нет, но вы держитесь там. Удачи, здоровья, хорошего настроения!
И пока в кармане пачка милкиуэйев - значит все не так уж плохо на сегодняшний день



In reply to Саня Изи
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#63
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As for the rest, Necropolis gets what we download for Haven, right?

Maybe we should discuss this question in another thread.
But still, a counterspell is needed, although it can be dispelled by Warlocks. So, only artifacts and leveling remain.
Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
Сервер в Discord
Стрим на twitch.tv
Стрим на GG

ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"

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