Moscow qualifier.

Registered: 5/23/2006

Posts: 2,153

#136 10/15/2009 1:58 PM UTC

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PReDS

It's like a militia drove the Poles out of Moscow. It's a day off, but it falls on Wednesday, which doesn't align with the rest.

They'll probably shift the days off somehow so that there are 3 days of rest... this is usually done.

Кто состоянием своим доволен, тому жить весело. (с)Алекса́ндр Васи́льевич Суво́ров

Registered: 8/19/2007

Posts: 840

#137 10/15/2009 2:12 PM UTC

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any other day, sure, but not on Wednesday. That’s the problem.

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

In reply to SpiriTT

Registered: 11/23/2007

Posts: 366

#138 10/15/2009 2:51 PM UTC

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Could someone list all the pros of Shades of Darkness in a clear, point-by-point manner? And why don't I want to play it? Not just a simple "I don't want to because I don't want to," but a thoughtful explanation of the reason.

In reply to Volodymyr

Registered: 10/12/2009

Posts: 524

#139 10/15/2009 3:09 PM UTC

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Volodymyr

Can someone list all the pros of TE (The Eastern Expansion) in a clear and concise manner?
And why don't I want to play it? Not just "I don't want to because I don't want to," but a well-thought-out reason.

)))))) For now, the main reason is that TE is being forced upon us, and we are such proud and loyal adherents to established traditions... at least, that's what I've gathered from the posts above! :smile14:

That said, it would be good to provide concrete evidence in the form of quotes, rather than just what someone imagines ;)
However, I think the real issue is different – the templates don't relate to the engine, but ardent SoD (Shadow of Death) fans still advocate for the most outdated template... so it's probably really about habit.....

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

In reply to wowa

Registered: 4/29/2007

Posts: 11,032

#140 10/15/2009 3:15 PM UTC

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I don't like to quote myself, but I'll repeat it. In my opinion, there is only one reason:

Me

Many people want to play what the developers came up with, not something created by someone who wants to make a supposed "improvement."

Isn't that enough?

Registered: 11/25/2007

Posts: 1,486

#141 10/15/2009 3:23 PM UTC

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lol
People who don't understand that there will be no compromise between the conservatives and the "SoD" enthusiasts are fools.
Stop this pointless, repetitive argument that's been going on for the hundredth time.
Because of 2 people who love "Shades of Darkness," another selection from Moscow won't be held; either play like the majority, or don't play at all.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Registered: 10/12/2009

Posts: 524

#142 10/15/2009 3:37 PM UTC

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Dirty_Player

Many want to play what the developers created, not something someone else came up with, claiming to be an "improvement."

Game development (which, among other things, includes map testing) is an incredibly complex process that also needs to be supposedly completed by a set deadline!!! Any modern computer game is imperfect by definition and is then painstakingly refined and balanced over time – even in single-player mode, let alone multiplayer!

Here are two examples: Lineage and WoW :)
How many versions and patches have they had? Oh yeah, that's from the developers! :) But pardon me, they charge money for subscriptions to the servers for that ;) But Heroes isn't any less complex in terms of possibilities than Lineage, so why should it be frozen because its creators are no longer around? :smile22:

Added 5 minutes later

StickyFingaz

What the heck
People who don't understand that there will be no compromise between conservatives and those who want to implement new features are fools.
Stop this pointless, repetitive argument for the hundredth time.
Because of two SoD enthusiasts, there won't be another selection round from Moscow; either play like the majority, or don't play at all.

Maybe they are fools, but sooner or later, the majority of players will switch to the new features, although I agree that this process won't be smooth :smile08:
And then let the remaining players figure out what to do.

For now, without investment and with minimal informational support, the spread is happening very gradually, but it is happening :) The idea has already been voiced – the stronger the player, the more tolerant they are to the new features, so let the desire to improve their skills serve as an incentive!..... :smile15:

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

In reply to wowa

Registered: 4/29/2007

Posts: 11,032

#143 10/15/2009 3:48 PM UTC

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wowa

So, what the hell is the reason for freezing them because their ancestors are dying? :smile22:

And what the hell is the reason for the changes to be made by the players themselves? :eek: Everyone has different opinions about the balance and what should be, and what needs to be changed... Let each of us release our own Total Enhancement (TE). And what will come of it?

For example, I am categorically against Armorer reducing damage by 20%, against the 5% increase for vampires and basilisks. I'm against monster specialists giving a bonus to health. I'm against many other things. But I'm also in favor of many new features.
Someone will say that it should be optional. Is that a good thing? On the contrary, it only leads to unnecessary arguments and squabbles. Some want it with experience, others without, some with morality and a stack... and so on... What's the point? :confused:

wowa

but sooner or later, the main mass of players will switch to TE

That's what the Baev guys thought 2 years ago. :D But they themselves started playing SOD on HotA :) I, honestly, thought so too once...

wowa

the stronger the player, the more tolerant he is to TE, so let the desire to improve his skill serve as an incentive!..... :smile15:

You can also demonstrate skill in SOD, there's nothing wrong with that. And generator victories happen everywhere! It's just a game...

Registered: 1/16/2008

Posts: 1,151

#144 10/15/2009 3:51 PM UTC

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Friends, I'm not writing as an organizer, but simply as a fan, and I'm probably wrong in many ways. To the question of who is better – TE or SoD – I will unequivocally answer that TE is better. To the question of what would happen if TE replaced SoD, I will also answer: in my opinion, it would be a wasteland. No forums, no players, almost nothing at all. They would be stuck somewhere between the "four" and "two" player modes (no offense). Why? Because SoD is imperfect. Just as the person who is trying to outsmart a robot in logical thinking is imperfect. They perfected TE, they showed who plays Heroes the best – so what next? Is it a perfect game for perfect people? Compare the original and current versions of Bay. At some point, a person will realize that there is simply nowhere to strive for. But in SoD, you get a morale boost at the most crucial moment in battle, and you're happy. You resist an enemy gnome at the most inappropriate moment, when you're counting every hit, every point of mana – you get angry. You catch cheaters, you curse the game, even though you can't live without it. You grumble that if it weren't for (and then a whole list of the game's shortcomings), I would beat everyone... And many of the TE players remained precisely because SoD exists – you can criticize it and learn from it. So, SoD is always the foundation of the Heroes community; as long as we don't kill it, we will live in this world, where we can always return, gain strength, and move on. TE is a search, and we also need it; it's the implementation of new ideas, concepts, and experiments. TE-Lite is criticized by both sides, but for now, it's the compromise that can satisfy everyone at the current stage. With respect.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#145 10/15/2009 4:07 PM UTC

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Volodymyr, I can list quite a few points where TE-full is worse than SOD (and TE-light): what makes TE fundamentally worse for me – and what diminished the game and destroyed the gameplay drive – is the identical starting armies, which often turns the first week into a tedious grind. For example, the standard setup is completely unplayable for me in TE. 2 - Specialists in monsters; now, you mostly have to play with them. As a result, mages have completely disappeared from the game. 3 - For Inferno, the only effective strategy is demonology. This isn't everything, of course, but it's enough for now. RP-3 rules completely transform the game into something else. The general idea is that the games become very similar to each other. And that doesn't appeal to me at all. The only important plus for me in TE-full is the opportunity to play with strong players. P.S. Wowa, please don't comment on my post; all your arguments are not very original, and your position is quite clear anyway.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

In reply to Oelm

Registered: 11/27/2007

Posts: 5,099

#146 10/15/2009 4:20 PM UTC

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Oelm

Starting with identical armies turns the first week into a tedious and frustrating experience.

This is the only valid argument. I've thought about it many times...

For example, the CM template is completely unplayable for me in TE.

I don't think that's a significant drawback...

2 - Monster specialists, now you mostly have to play as them.

"Monster specialists"... haha...
- Honey, were you unfaithful to me?
- Only once.
- With whom?
- With a football team.

Compare the range of heroes you start with in TE to the range you start with in SoD. The difference is probably about twice as much.

As a result, mages have completely disappeared from the game.

1) Why did they disappear?
2) Were they even there in the first place? (not counting Solmyr and his colleagues)

For Inferno, the only effective strategy is demonology.

Considering that there is no effective strategy for Inferno in SoD, I think this is more of a plus.

RP-3 rules completely transform the game into something else. The general idea is that the games become very similar to each other. And that doesn't appeal to me at all.

On CMs, definitely. But with a wide range of templates, absolutely not. I haven't even played on 8mm6 lately; I always play on different and rare templates. And I play both full-random and 200% start.

Every time, there's a lot of information to think about. I don't think that years of playing CMs gives you even a semblance of this.

The only important plus for me in TE full is the ability to play with strong players.

Well, that's exactly what initially drew me to TE. Let's just say it's factor number one.

In reply to StickyFingaz

Registered: 10/13/2008

Posts: 1,150

#147 10/15/2009 4:24 PM UTC

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StickyFingaz

omg
because of 2 SoD lovers, another qualifier from Moscow won't be held; either play like the majority, or don't play at all

Let the "SoD lovers" decide for themselves whether to play it or not, ok? And whether to hold a separate tournament.
To avoid being accused of some kind of "conservatism," I'll say that I played TE, albeit very little; my impression is that they are basically visually similar, but in essence 2 completely different games compared to SoD (TE-full, meaning), and each is good in its own way, but in my opinion, you have to grind harder for TE...

Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)

Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51:

In reply to КостяN

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#148 10/15/2009 4:41 PM UTC

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Wicc, - what does "grinding" in skill-based maps have to do with it? I have a normal attitude towards the variety of templates. I just get annoyed when people write that skill-based maps are the most boring and unbalanced of all templates (usually, these people belong to the category of those who like to restart until they're blue in the face, and then, in case of bad luck, try to get out of a difficult situation). In my opinion, the balance is often, for example, dumber and more unbalanced.

By the way, the arguments I wrote were largely subjective, for myself, so to speak. Why argue not on the merits (about skill-based maps), but simply because you have a different approach.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

In reply to StickyFingaz

Registered: 4/1/2008

Posts: 486

#149 10/15/2009 5:02 PM UTC

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StickyFingaz

omg
people who haven't realized that there will be no compromise between the conservatives and the TE techs are fools
stop this meaningless argument that has been repeated a hundred times
another selection from Moscow will not be held because of 2 SoD enthusiasts; either play like the majority, or don't play at all
For god's sake friends, it is exactly for this reason that you will have competition, because pouring everything into one and the same thought-out plan isn't sporting... and if I see that all resources have switched to "te" then I'll have to do it myself.... but for now, boom, those who were once like you will crush you. I'll learn a few templates so I can play them against you in SoD. Because honestly, they are all one and the same pathetic thing.

Registered: 8/19/2007

Posts: 840

#150 10/15/2009 5:17 PM UTC

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2 Vic. I might be talking nonsense, but still. Have you ever wondered why there's such a desire for different starting conditions all the time? Isn't it because of the boring monotony? I don't think Alex or Forest are happy that they had to start with 10 dwarves and 4 lizardmen, with no reserves. But such starts add a twist. It's wonderful to see how a strong player tries to find a way out, figures things out, and looks for solutions. They remember that there's the "Forgetfulness" spell and so on... that's interesting. But reading something like "on day 121, I took the Consul 3, on day 122 I have 20 ducks, and the endgame is quite easy" isn't very interesting. It gets boring. Yes, it's a great skill, yes, it's a great pace, yes, try to repeat it, but why are even you looking for variety? Even 8mm6 no longer satisfies you. So, it's a great game, SoD is also great. It's just more popular right now. Why don't you play SoD? Is it because it takes too long to transfer troops? Or because the early game is slow? Or because someone has 150 troglodytes, and someone else has 10 dwarves? You're a strong player, your skill would allow you to compete on equal terms. Are you afraid of losing? I really can't understand why someone like you would think that.

Added 3 minutes later
Very rational and intelligent people argue so much about which version is worse and which is better... It seems strange to me. As you said, "it's life, baby, it's not that simple, and you have to overcome difficulties!" Not a direct quote, but that's the gist of it.

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

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