Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments. Auto-translated

2 Alex R.

You and I have always had a mutual understanding; when I first joined the forum, you, Tanya, Zhenya, Loy, and Invisible helped me, a forum novice, in organizing all the tournaments, helping with everything they could, and I am very grateful to all of you. I deeply respect your uncompromising character and readiness to fight for World. Therefore, please take everything I write in the right spirit.

In principle, it is not so important whether I entered the final part from First or Third place - what is important is that there are currently very many shortcomings both in the rules and in the judging, and as can be seen, in the newly created AC body.
I am not demanding a medal or something impossible; essentially, a couple of digits in the final table would change, but it is necessary to actually figure this out, because how can the AC judges and organizers work at all if they cannot even resolve such a simple situation ....

Let's analyze the situation together. What is the alternative to the judge's decision? Let's assume that a decision is made in your favor and you are awarded two victories.
Let's break down the original situation.
1. The tour period was from June 7 to 21. Two weeks, a more than generous timeframe; players in clan wars and team games usually played a one-week tour for me, only occasionally extended. And two weeks is normal, especially since there aren't many tournaments right now, so there wasn't much overlap.
On the 20th, messages appear – yours and Vitalik's – to play. In general, on the penultimate day of the tour, 13 (!!!) days were wasted for nothing. You could have written that your opponent was disappearing and not showing up as early as a week after the start of the tour, around the 13th; no one would have considered you a troublemaker.

2. You had problems with ICQ. I did too, and many others did, but what can be done now? For example, a Formula-1 driver is running in first place, pulls into the pits, the mechanic doesn't tighten the wheel properly, it falls off... the driver is out, and the fact that it wasn't his fault, that technical problems were to blame – no one cares.

Yes, I was late; the logs show he wrote to me at 22:04, and I only replied at 22:32, even though I was at the computer earlier, but specifically fixing the ICQ malfunction and could not warn him via ICQ – and I didn't try other ways because I thought I'd restore communication faster. And since he was already playing with numOne at 22:32 – that shows he waited for me much less.

Half an hour – not everyone can wait; for instance, such waits were very expensive for me on my dial-up; I made it a rule to wait 10 minutes and then leave. We are all very different people, with different mentalities, different temperaments, different characters; essentially, the only thing that truly unites us all is LOVE FOR THE GAME. Therefore, the most reasonable thing is to show punctuality and politeness... maximum.
Imagine the situation: a person comes home after work, children are screaming, the wife grumbles: "Back at the computer playing again!". And he can't even play because the opponent isn't there. What do you think that person will be thinking about the latecomer during this time?
Vitalik, in a fit of pique or spite, could have sat down to play with numOne, and perhaps, in some way, I understand him.

But on the 3rd and 4th, I didn't understand why Vitalik relaxed and stopped playing, although the agreement remained in force and we planned to log in every day from 22:00 to 24:00 until we finished the game. But judging by the logs, it was specifically Vitalik who wasn't in a hurry.
On 3.04 I didn't write to Vitalik because I didn't see him online, and then Vigo appeared and later Vitalik was found:

Note that the tour started on June 7, essentially a month ago, yet you gathered to make sessions of 2 hours.

Then come your negotiations with Vitalik and Vigo. Well, this doesn't look like negotiations between people who are desperate to finish a game. The same is conducted lazily, about nothing; reread your post №23, where the ICQ logs are provided.

So what is the result?
- the game was dragged out for a month and still not played;
- your ICQ failed, it's not your fault, but it's not Pit's or AC's fault either;
- you were half an hour late to negotiations, again due to technical problems, but who is at fault – Pit?

So explain why you want Pit and AC to be absolutely sinless? What decision could be ideal? Give the victories to Vitalik and Vigo – no, they didn't earn them. Give the victories to you? Sorry, you didn't earn them either. Victories are what you did in the team tournament, where you clawed out and pulled through games. Now that is where you have great respect.
Reading the essence of the dispute, I would cringe, as would many on the forum, if such victories were awarded to you; it's more like a stain on a player's reputation, and if you thought about it, you would refuse them yourself.

Then what grievances can there be against Pit? He has lived on our forum much less than you, his gaming experience is less than yours, he is younger than you by age, having just finished institute. And he took on a task that was practically impossible to pull off from the start – creating an utopically ideal community of players.

I know several similar cases; sorry for digging into the past again, I have no future as a player, I won't grow any further. So, for three years Alan Prost carried the League of Heroes on his back, inventing tournaments, holding festivals, seeking funds. A seasoned, wisest, experienced forty-year-old man. Of course, he had help, but absolutely, absolutely not enough. And the result – Alan burned out, even his passion faded and the League disappeared as a third-rate resource.
Chaos in Moscow pulled the Moscow league for four years, having good financial support from the Computer Sports Federation, mass media, powerful friends (Andre, Dilvish, Phil123, Joker, Bishop, Mega pes, etc.). He pulled the League with pigheaded persistence; when he burned out, no one could take up the banner, and the community withered.

If only you knew how the Leaguers and Chaosits regret the times gone by when they had engines. Back then other people immediately became useful – some as an excellent player, some as a good judge, some as a talented report author, etc. Without an engine – everything stalls.
What use is a car without an engine?

Pit is our engine; if he burns out, then what? Who will shake the community? Many veterans have time problems; very good new blood has arrived recently, but they need to be given time to settle in and grow stronger.
Later we will regret that there was a player who organized... tried to organize.

Why am I sticking up for Pit? He's a strong guy, he doesn't need it. Simply running tournaments is a big responsibility, but besides the tournaments, Pit also carries the burden of developing online same-turn on World. If nothing appears, he will be blamed for talking so much and doing nothing. And when such a dispute occurs – all strength goes only into that. Nothing remains for creation.

And one more thing. A wrong impression might be created that Alex R is bad, and the good guys are putting him in his place. If my post among others contributed to this, then I ask everyone's forgiveness.
Because I am sure that if something happened to our forum, Alex would be the last to leave it. I remember with what passion he threw himself into the battle for our resource during condescending attacks by guests when we were few and weak, taking kicks for World.
I remember how he fought for our resource in inter-portal disputes under the most unfavorable circumstances, when many gave up.
With what passion he supported new tournaments and changes on the forum. In general, remember this when you want to judge him.

Nagan is a true genius, and there are no limits to his abilities! As intended, he will always be there to help and offer advice. I am very glad that my thoughts, expressed to Alex in the chat, are not far from his, which means they are not far from the truth. :)
But unfortunately, all people are quite proud and inflexible, perhaps a little too much...

1. The round lasts from June 7th to June 21st. Two weeks, which is a fairly lenient timeframe. Players in clan wars and team games used to play for a week per round, sometimes with extensions. Two weeks is reasonable, especially since there aren't many tournaments happening right now, so there's not much overlap.

I participated in 3 tournaments and played a season in "windows" (but that's my problem, I'm not arguing).

On the 20th, messages appear – yours and Vitalik's – to play. In general, in the penultimate day of the round, 13 (!!!) days were wasted. You could have reported that your opponent was missing and not showing up after a week from the start of the round, around the 13th, and no one would have considered you a troublemaker.

Well, communication was mainly through PMs, as we couldn't catch each other on ICQ, although we were probably both online. On weekdays, we didn't even expect to play, knowing each other's schedules.
On weekends, I specifically set aside time during the day to play and waited in vain for Vitalik. I couldn't reach him on ICQ, and it turned out that Vitalik rarely checks his PMs and only read them late. Naturally, I couldn't set aside that time again and was only willing to play at my usual time. And knowing that there are always players who don't fulfill their obligations in each round, that was somewhat reassuring. And, of course, no one rushed to complain because, in essence, they realized that they were to blame for not being able to agree, but they still wanted to play (at least I did).

Half an hour – not everyone can wait. For example, such waiting periods were very expensive for me on my dial-up connection. I made it a rule to wait 10 minutes and then leave….
…Vitalik, in a fit of pique, might play with numOne, and I can understand that to some extent.

And I understood that then, although I was hardened by the SOY tournaments, where the acceptable delay time was 1 hour for everything. (Adelaide strictly monitored this and wrote it in the regulations).
And after that incident, I warned Vitalik that if we agreed on a time, I would be there, but I might be late by up to half an hour. As it turned out, he took this well, and we either waited for me or I waited for him. But it didn't work out more than twice... well, he took a break – went out instead of playing, okay, one day later or earlier, I won't complain to Pit about that, especially since the first time it was like I was late, so we're even. The next day, he was late himself and asked if we should continue, and then he wrote that he wouldn't be available today. And then the situation repeated itself: I showed up, but he didn't wait for me... how embarrassing for me, I'm already ashamed that it's been almost a week since we made our first attempt, and we haven't finished the game because the deadline has passed, and Pit was promised something, although I did everything I could to fulfill the promise. And you say that there's no eagerness to play. I was ready every day. And I periodically informed him about the progress of the negotiations, and he portrayed me as a fool in his post, saying that we were silent and that he was deceived again. He even talks about some logs in which I was delaying the game with Vitalik and hiding from Vigo? Ask him, "Why did he write that?"

So, what's the result?
- The match was delayed for a month and never played;
- Your ICQ was malfunctioning, it's not your fault, but Pit's and AK's aren't either;
- You were half an hour late for the negotiations, again due to technical problems, but is Pit to blame?

And I'm not blaming him for this, and I partially apologized to AK when I realized that the problem was with Pit, and the others were just following his lead.
I just replied to Pit's post with a solution to this problem and asked why it was like that. I disagree – he wrote a post instead of clarifying the situation, in which the facts were distorted and there were unfounded accusations against me.

What could be an ideal solution? Give the victory to Vitalik and Vigo – no, they don't deserve it. Give the victory to you? Sorry, you don't deserve it either. After reading the essence of the dispute, I would frown, as would many on the forum, if you were awarded such victories. It would be a stain on your reputation as a player, and you, after thinking about it, would probably refuse it yourself.

An ideal solution in the match with Vitalik is indeed difficult to achieve. I believe that I don't really deserve the victory you're talking about, but to give "0" to everyone is also unjustified. I think that I deserve 1 point more than Vitalik, and AK could at least award 0.5 points to me and Vitalik, but giving "0" to each = erasing a month of nerves.
As for the game with Vigo, which they attributed to me – I don't even understand that. After the round ended, I told Pit that Vigo didn't show up for the agreed match – it's pointless to continue, and Pit replied that he wouldn't give me a technical victory... there are many defaulters, so play.

Pit is our engine.

I know he's the engine and tried to help balance the wheels that are going in different directions, but I met resistance from him, and I don't hold any grudges, although I still can't understand him, he doesn't respond on ICQ.

We always had mutual understanding.

I hoped you would respond in this thread, but I was embarrassed to ask, as I understand that it's all unpleasant. And I understood that you would at least be neutral. ;)
But understand my position too:
I'm not making a big deal out of this for the sake of these 1.5-2 points...
...the final stage has started. The players are almost the same for me, some may not have played with them, but I'm going to face Vigo, Vitalik, Mizrael again. Despite the fact that we played the very first games of the round easily with Mizrael, this time he made it clear that it would be more difficult to agree, especially for me. In addition, I recently found out on ICQ that it will also be almost impossible to agree with numOne, and of course, there will be Wlk777.
So, just by seeing how Pit, as an organizer, resolves issues, and how AK resolves controversial moments, a picture emerges of at least five "0"s next to my nickname. And that's even before I know what time LeBron, Javdet, and Britvachka play, although I managed to meet two of them online. And Pit also promised that there would be no technical victories or technical defeats in the final... so what does that mean? Will I or someone else be forced to play? Or will AK make some other decision? Maybe they will disqualify me as the most inconvenient opponent for most at the end of the tournament according to the Berger Coefficient principle? Because that's what's happening... and why should I suffer – it will be one unpleasant experience from the tournament and from the game. Yes, the game lasts for six months, and if there is a desire, you can set aside special time, but not for 6 games out of 9. And even if everything is disciplined on the other side, there will definitely be at least one snag – the stakes will increase, and they will strive to win points more fiercely. And now I'm even thinking, what's the point?
Playing in the interportal is interesting, but it's no longer worth that price for me. It's just frustrating to waste time, that I put all my efforts into this tournament, even at the expense of two other tournaments that I could have finished. And it's frustrating that, as always, the problem was swept under the rug, and the costs accumulate in the general heroic atmosphere and will continue to accumulate because this problem will resurface... even without me... :)


The same request applies to Nagano!

2 Neznayka.
What the heck. :p

2 Alex R.

But understand my position:
I'm not exaggerating all this just for those 1.5-2 points…

2 Alex R.
Just thank you. The problem is that a small issue has turned into a big dispute. I'm sure Pete also wants to end this pointless topic. Let's forget about the qualifier; it's over. Let's talk about the final.

…and so the final stage has begun. The players are almost the same as before, some may not have played with them, but I will have to face Vigo, Vitalik, and Mizrael again. Although we had an easy game against Mizrael in the first round, this time he made it clear that it would be more difficult, especially for me. Also, I recently found out in ICQ that it will be almost impossible to come to an agreement with numOne, and of course, there's Wlk777.

Again, let's break everything down as it should be.

About the evening games. In half a year, you will definitely have time to play not at night, and you will definitely know about it in advance, at least 3-4 days beforehand. Contacting your opponents takes about five minutes, even if it's offline; you'll find at least one. And so, nine times. Pavel Dubrov would play these games in a week with some effort.
Opponents probably played at night before, and someone will definitely agree (again, in half a year). In general, it's not difficult to come to an agreement by mutual consent. The problem is if personal grievances arise. Let's continue to break it down.

Mizrael. I personally know at least a hundred players, and in terms of sportsmanship, Misha Mizrael is one of the best. If there are problems with him, it's really bad because you have to try hard to annoy him. But the least you need is to fight with Misha; I'm sure if you write him a normal post, he will also respond normally because he's a gentleman, even though he suffered for it.
If you have problems with him, write, and we'll think about it.

Vitalik and Vigo. Notice that Kverty supports you; he's the leader of a large clan, and he also doesn't want an old forum member, a forum patriot, to be an outcast on his own forum. Can the most charismatic leader talk to his clan members? Probably yes, and the issue will be resolved positively.

Who else? LeBron, I think? In general, he makes a very positive impression as a player and as a person; he is not characterized by vindictiveness or resentment.
And I don't believe that in half a year, you won't come to an agreement with numOne even once; he also shows himself to be an adequate player.

Who else? Wlk777? I can't help with that.

In general, you haven't had problems with games before, and believe me, you won't have them in the future if you approach communication with people thoughtfully.

I think I deserved the 1 point more than Vitalik; at worst, AK could have awarded 0.5 points to me and Vitalik, but giving 0 to each = erasing a month of nerves.

I believe you spent a lot of nerves. Again, a friendly piece of advice: take a short break from the game. A month, to come to your senses, rest. Then, in the fall, with the influx of tournaments, you'll be back with new strength. When you're stressing yourself out, the game isn't enjoyable.

I know he's the driving force and tried to help balance the wheels that are going in different directions, but he met resistance from him; I don't hold a grudge against him, although I can't understand him yet; he doesn't respond in ICQ.

I can agree with you on everything except Pete. He started a big project, spends a lot of nervous energy, and then there's this dispute. It's harder for him now than for you. I just imagined that if something like this was written about me, it would be very difficult for me to run tournaments. Remember the dispute with Peterius? And he won't have any warm feelings for you, and he probably doesn't want to write to him in ICQ either.

But still, Peter is not vindictive; you will forget about the conflict, and he will forget about it too; at least, he won't give in to emotions as a judge and organizer, but he will treat you like the other participants, and that will be enough.
You will both save your nerves. If you can overcome yourself and end the conflict with Pete, then I respect you. And I respect Pete for not giving in to emotions.

That's all for now.

I'd like to share my opinion... I don't think it's fair to accuse Pete or others of bias. It's just that the judging isn't at the highest level yet, and there are many unclear situations that judges sometimes don't have the time, desire, or patience to sort out. But Alex_R is also right in his own way; some people would have stayed silent, but he didn't. For example, in my case, I didn't manage to sign up for the tournament (or rather, I couldn't play for a couple of months due to family matters), but when more than half of the tournament had already passed, Pete still accepted me, without promising anything. We started playing... With the kind agreement of A.S., we started playing against him instead of his opponent who had withdrawn. We played for a week on Jebus, and it took several hours. Then, either a session or other problems (internet, unwillingness to play, or something else) prevented A.S. from finishing the game. For example, I don't think it was right to give Tech Win to A.S. since the game didn't take place. But why did I even start that game in the first place? I don't see the point... and why should I look for him and ask him to play? The situation is ambiguous here. I would have had 4 points, just like: 21__numOne________________4.0__29.0_
_______30__Mizrael _______________4.0__29.0_
________6__Pit_for_LM ___________4.0__28.5_
_______10__Erdem _______________4.0__27.5_
_______22__SEM_56_______________4.0__22.5 True, I later had to play against A.S. again, and he withdrew from the tournament, and I got a Tech Win there too, but if things had been different from the start, I would have played against another player. As they say, I didn't make any demands, since they accepted me anyway after 4 rounds had passed. But if they already accepted me, then the rules should be the same for me as for everyone else, and the rights too. It would have been possible to schedule some additional games or something else. I'm not claiming anything; it's just an example that not everything is perfect with us. And every player has the same rights. And there's no need to say that one person is good because they stayed silent, and another is bad because they didn't.

In this case, I believe that Alex_R deserves a more in-depth understanding from Pit.

A 0-0 was given because, despite the immense desire of all players to reach an agreement and play, there was no result. A draw was not given because the players themselves could not agree on a draw. Giving victory to one of them was impossible, as it is impossible to weigh whose desire to play was greater by a fraction of a milligram or who among them was even slightly more in the right. The pointlessness of this dispute is depressing. I see no constructiveness. One thing I am sure of: it's time to end this. If it is fundamentally important for the forum to change the result, we can wait for Vitalik and Vigo to return, create two separate threads, let each participant in the dispute post all their materials, and hold a general vote over the course of a month (1-1, 0.5-0.5, 0-0, 0-1, 1-0, 0.3-0.7, etc.). Then everyone will be able to delve deeper and reach a decision.

Yes, I received not a single message in ICQ from Alex; usually, I reply to everyone daily. He probably has problems with ICQ again.

My negotiations with vitalic (shortened version):

vitalic ?(25/06/2009 16:34):
actually, I called Alex in private as far back as last week and suggested playing even in fragments—however he can
vitalic ?(25/06/2009 16:34):
but so far there's silence from him

vitalic (21:10:10 28/06/2009)
hi, the weekend is over, didn't catch Alex((
vitalic (21:10:38 28/06/2009)
I suggested to him playing a little bit throughout the week, since he can only start from 10 PM, he was waiting for the weekend...
vitalic (21:24:52 28/06/2009)
sorry, I'm really trying to get him into the game—I have his ICQ logs, and it's also strange that he supposedly pinged me here in ICQ—but there are no messages, anyway I'll keep trying
Pit (21:26:20 28/06/2009)
And did you manage to agree on the weekend?
vitalic (21:27:08 28/06/2009)
yes
vitalic (21:27:18 28/06/2009)
he's been gone all day today
vitalic (21:28:40 28/06/2009)
yesterday I waited half the day—wrote in ICQ, he wasn't there, he sent a private message on the site saying he couldn't reach me in ICQ, I turned on Hamachi, gave him network access, gave my mobile number so he could send a message, but he was gone again—looks like he didn't wait and yesterday evening he was completely absent; he can play from 10 PM—anyway it's strange, maybe he left town
Pit (21:41:19 28/06/2009)
maybe you should set a specific time for the game then?
vitalic (21:41:39 28/06/2009)
let's do it!
vitalic (21:42:01 28/06/2009)
he and I agreed on the weekend and something didn't work out((
vitalic (21:43:06 28/06/2009)
I write to him practically every day
vitalic (21:43:14 28/06/2009)
and there is correspondence from work too

Pit (22:37:58 28/06/2009)
Pit (22:37:43 28/06/2009)
Hi! Vitalik asks to set a time for your game. He can play on workdays from 20 to 24 (MSK) or on weekends from 9 to 24 (MSK). Please choose a day and time convenient for you and let me know—I'll post it on the forum. You have one week left for the game.
Pit (22:43:06 28/06/2009)
Sent a PM too—I'll check the forum to see when he receives it

vitalic ?(30/06/2009 13:31):
hi, Alex appeared today
Pit ?(30/06/2009 15:21):
yes, I asked him again, he hasn't replied yet. I suggested that he either post on the forum, or at 21:00 today I will assign you Wednesday from 22 to 24 with completion at the same time on Thursday and Friday.

Pit (22:39:37 30/06/2009)
good evening! Are you playing?
vitalic (22:39:52 30/06/2009)
he just arrived
vitalic (22:40:23 30/06/2009)
we agreed on tomorrow, I've already sat down to finish playing with numOne
Pit (22:41:14 30/06/2009)
okay, good

vitalic (20:14:45 10/07/2009)
I offered him a draw myself, I don't need the tech win
My negotiations with Alex_R (shortened version):

Pit ?(19/06/2009 8:14):
Hi! When will you play in Best and Seasons? It's about time... Three days left in Best, and in Seasons you should have played 2-3 games already...

Pit ?(22/06/2009 10:21):
why can't you agree with Vitalik?
Alex_R ?(22/06/2009 10:26):
I don't know—maybe my messages didn't go through... from today I'll be bombing the debts in both
Alex_R ?(22/06/2009 10:26):
in any case, around July 10th I might leave and therefore everything I don't manage to play—tech loss.
Alex_R ?(22/06/2009 10:27):
regarding SOY, in the next couple of days I will definitely play one or several games
Pit ?(22/06/2009 10:27):
try to play
Alex_R ?(22/06/2009 10:28):
but with Vitalik it will be harder—even when the connection is restored, the time is very inconvenient

Pit (22:37:43 28/06/2009)
Hi! Vitalik asks to set a time for your game. He can play on workdays from 20 to 24 (MSK) or on weekends from 9 to 24 (MSK). Please choose a day and time convenient for you and let me know—I'll post it on the forum. You have one week left for the game.

Alex_R ?(30/06/2009 9:55):
I can play on weekdays and weekends from 22:00 MSK to 5:00
on weekends I can additionally play from 12:00 to 16:00—but it doesn't always work out, this weekend I pinged him during the day when he was online—but he didn't answer, wrote a PM on the forum—but he only replied the next day

Alex_R ?(30/06/2009 12:28):
let's try to play in a couple of sessions, but how do we format this?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:28):
tell me when you start
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:28):
today?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:28):
tomorrow?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:30):
I'll then inform him and write the exact game time on the forum
Alex_R ?(30/06/2009 12:32):
by the way, what about substitutes?
Alex_R ?(30/06/2009 12:32):
will you replace Vigo in round 6 or does he get a tech loss?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:32):
won't work
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:32):
if you also can't agree, then 0 points for both
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:36):
did you try to agree with him?
Alex_R ?(30/06/2009 12:36):
with Vigo? haven't written yet—he decided that for himself right away
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:36):
well try
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:51):
so what did you decide?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:51):
should I set a game time for you and Vitalik?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 12:52):
or will you not play round 5?
Pit ?(30/06/2009 13:12):
basically—decide, and then either decline round 5 on the forum, or I'll post around 21:00 this evening—I'll assign you time with Vitalik from 22 to 24 hours—Wednesday, with completion on Thursday and Friday also from 22 to 24 (MSK).
Alex_R ?(30/06/2009 13:46):
agreed for this evening, and then we'll see how it goes—we'll play/finish playing
Pit ?(30/06/2009 15:25):
ok, good luck!

Alex_R ?(01/07/2009 23:51):
Good night ... we connected today and played both of his restarts and one of mine ... decided to postpone until tomorrow while it's not too late ... if anything, maybe we'll play fully tomorrow or at the latest finish it the day after

Pit ?(02/07/2009 10:44):
write to him in ICQ every day specifying the time—suggest daytime on weekends—that's a universal time—and then give me all the logs
Alex_R ?(02/07/2009 10:46):
I can't do it every day—I have a bunch of other games, I'll write in the evening after the game with Vitalik and when I'm free on weekends and that's it ... I don't want to harass him either ... it doesn't feel quite right for me to be begging him to play with me
Pit ?(02/07/2009 10:47):
the main thing is—suggest the weekend to him.

Pit ?(06/07/2009 9:42):
Hi! how are the games with Vitalik and Vigo doing?
Alex_R ?(06/07/2009 9:43):
hi
Alex_R ?(06/07/2009 9:43):
yeah, some nonsense again
Alex_R ?(06/07/2009 9:45):
I agreed with one and the other, both knew which day I was playing and with whom, in the end neither showed up ... moreover yesterday I was supposed to play Vigo, arrived at 19:00 and while Vitalik was online—decided to play with him ... but he didn't answer, and then at 23600 sent a message that he wasn't near the computer ...
Alex_R ?(06/07/2009 9:48):
basically we played two evenings with Vitalik and other times it didn't work out ... I actually didn't always arrive at 22:00 ... sometimes I was late by 30-40 minutes, but he was either already playing someone else or wrote that it was too late today, and for the specifically agreed time I found out through Vigo that Vitalik was visiting guests and wouldn't play ... by the way, that's when I saw that Vigo set his status in Metroland as ready to play ... and I suggested it to him, and he wrote something like:
"nah forget it, I'll just quickly run a game with someone and go to sleep ... let's do Sunday with me"
In the end, he didn't show up on Sunday

Pit ?(06/07/2009 17:34):
And what can be done? The round 5 draw was a month ago. Your deadline was extended twice. There are debts for round 6 too. And round 7 needs to be drawn because the guys are leaving—they asked. They all play on time, it's not their fault. He says you don't show up at the agreed time, and you say the same. What other decision can be made?

Discussion with Dirty_Player:

Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:02):
Vigo says that Alex sets harsh conditions. Like he only plays after 22 MSK
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:02):
For example, I definitely wouldn't be able to play with him
Pit ?(09/07/2009 17:03):
and on weekends?
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:03):
Same!
Pit ?(09/07/2009 17:04):
he wrote that he can play during the day from 14 to 17
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:05):
Vigo says that 14-17 MSK suits him
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:06):
Vigo is ready on weekends
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:07):
Says he's ready to play during the day too
Pit ?(09/07/2009 17:07):
Should I write to Alex that we are setting Saturday and Sunday 14-17 MSK?
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:07):
Let's do that
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:07):
I'll write the same to Vigo
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:09):
Vigo just caught Alex in ICQ and is suggesting he play!
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:12):
Now Vigo said that Alex didn't answer his suggestion, but simply disconnected from ICQ. Is this true?
Pit ?(09/07/2009 17:12):
yes
Pit ?(09/07/2009 17:12):
just now
Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:16):
Vigo ?(19:58):
well I might be joking, but if you decide—I won't argue! it's just stressful for me to play with him this marathon until 6 AM exhausts me, I already gave him a game in the team event, that's enough

A more complete version of these negotiations is in the attached file. I can personally provide Neznayka with as many more. Probably, I didn't delve deep enough...

Let's wait for Vitalik and Vigo to return, create two separate threads, let each participant in the dispute post all their materials, and conduct a general vote.

Most likely, we'll have to wait for them, because I see that you're not listening to me.

Yes, I didn't receive a single message from Alex on ICQ; I usually reply to everyone daily. He probably has problems with ICQ again.

Interesting move... I have a message saved in my history; I sent it to you when you were "away." There can't be a physical problem with the old one, as I deleted Qip online. Well, never mind; if you don't want to talk, I won't force you. Now, let's get down to business:

I read your conversation with Vitalik, and there are 3 tricky points.
Point 1
In your previous post, you wrote:

The next day, they finally started playing, postponed it, BOTH promised to finish, and then went silent.
Neither of them reported for the next 4 days that they couldn't agree.

I replied, providing logs confirming that we communicated about this, and your logs also confirm that we exchanged messages on July 1st, July 2nd, and finally on July 6th.

Point 2

The deadline for the round and the two extensions has passed, silence.

See above, and our logs. On July 6th, I gave you a complete breakdown, stating that on July 1st and July 2nd, we played with Vitalik; on July 3rd and July 4th, he didn't show up; on July 5th, Vigo didn't show up, and Vitalik couldn't make it. I was ready to play all 6 days, but it only happened twice, not because of me.

Finally, on July 6th, a 0-0 score was set. No, the players didn't believe that the decision was final.

Of course, I didn't believe in such "luck," especially since I explained the situation to you.
You made the following conclusion:
Pit ?(06/07/2009 17:34):
What can be done? The 5th round draw was a month ago. You were given two extensions. There are also debts in the 6th round. And the 7th round needs to be drawn, as the guys are leaving - they asked. They all play within the deadline; it's not their fault. He says that you don't show up at the agreed time, and you say the same thing. What other decision can be made?
If one side says one thing, and the other says another, logs are usually requested, and the situation is clarified.
But what surprises me even more is that you DIDN'T WANT to investigate, because the logs you provided show that you and Vitalik HAD NO messages from June 30th to July 10th.

Pit (22:41:14 30/06/2009)
okay, fine
vitalic (20:14:45 10/07/2009)
I offered him a draw myself; I don't need the win.

, which means he COULDN'T tell you that I didn't show up for the game... and besides (as my logs show), even if he did, it would be a lie.
Aren't you setting up Vitalik right now?
Point 3

Vitalik - I want to finish or draw. Alex - I want a technical win because I'm leaving. They couldn't even agree on a draw...

Judging by your logs with Vitalik:
vitalic (20:14:45 10/07/2009)
I offered him a draw myself; I don't need the win.
He's not demanding a technical win because he understands that he doesn't deserve it, and this also indirectly confirms that he doesn't think I was avoiding the game.
He wanted a draw, which means there was no reason to delay.
And after July 6th, I caught Vitalik on ICQ twice, even though the score was "0-0" for both, because I WANTED TO FINISH the game.
On July 7th, as usual, I messaged him, but he couldn't make it, but we agreed on July 8th. He didn't show up on July 8th.
P.S. Pit, I didn't tell you that "I want a technical win because I'm leaving."
That just sounds stupid.
I just made sure that, in my absence, you would have all the necessary information from me about the matches with Vitalik and Vigo.

After reviewing the unpublished logs of Vitalik, I realized that after July 10th, you did discuss this, and only then did he tell you about my alleged avoidance in the form of being late, but this in no way justifies your final decision on July 6th to give us both zero, but rather means that you should have passed the case to the AC.
I just don't understand why the AC decided to leave it as is? After all, the logs show that:
- Vitalik was avoiding it, as I was ready to play and offered 8 times, of which at least 5 times were agreed upon... 2 successful and 3 rejections
- "lateness," which Vitalik complains about, is a concept not covered by the rules; some wait 10 minutes, some wait 1 hour, and some wait forever...
Let's assume that on the first day of our agreement (June 30th), being 30 minutes late = my absence, but immediately we discussed this, and all subsequent meetings should have taken place according to our agreement:
Alex (21:35:07 30/06/2009)
I can't promise to be on time... I don't play until after 10 pm...
vitalic (21:35:31 30/06/2009)
I understand, but will you be there for sure?

He said he would, so he would.
He stated the time he would be ready to play, 9 pm Kyiv time = 10 pm Moscow time.
21:29:33 1/07/2009 (played)
21:21:56 2/07/2009 (played) vitalic (21:22:17 2/07/2009) 30 more minutes and we're on
20:55:08 3/07/2009
21:50:52 4/07/2009
19:14:42 5/07/2009
20:59:24 7/07/2009
21:37:13 8/07/2009


Now, regarding the match with Vigo.
Again, I didn't hear an apology from you that you deceived me here as well. And I also don't understand your meaningless and unfounded stubbornness.
Messages from Vigo within the round deadline:

Unfortunately, the time of the game for my opponent (Alex R) doesn't suit me at all!
If a replacement is not possible, set a technical win.

You didn't make a replacement, you didn't set a technical win, that is, you ignored it... let them agree and play.
On July 3rd, I caught him online, but he refused; we agreed on July 5th.
(You knew about this and say that you were waiting for the result.)
Vigo didn't show up; the next day, I was talking to you about the fact that Vitalik was avoiding it and told you that Vigo also didn't show up at the agreed time. The deadline passed; Vigo's desire to have a technical win was confirmed, and you ignored this again, saying that there are many debtors, agree until the end of the next round. I didn't receive anything from Vigo, and he didn't tell me why he didn't show up for the game.
And now, regarding your logs when Vigo offered me.

Dirty_Player ?(09/07/2009 17:12):
Now Vigo said that Alex didn't respond to his offer and simply disconnected from ICQ. Is that true?

Let's look at the date and time! On the 4th day after the end of the round, Vigo decided to offer, but...
...at 5 pm, my workday ends; obviously, I was at work with ICQ on, and I might not have noticed this message, and when I left work, I naturally turned off the computer. At home that day, I was packing my things and didn't want to play with anyone anymore, and in the evening, I went in to send all the information to Pit.
And so it turns out:
Vigo's initial agreement to a technical win + confirmed by 2 REJECTIONS within the round deadline AGAINST one attempt by Vigo to offer me to play on the 4th day of the round extension
... and the AC decides to give both zero?!

Regarding the Alex vs. Vitalik match: the decision was made correctly, and I don't see any other option, even after reviewing all the logs. The organizer made concessions and extended the round after there was no information available within the allotted time. Only after a new round was scheduled did the uproar begin. They didn't even play the 7th round... apparently, they were too eager. Regarding the Alex vs. Vigo match: perhaps Vigo should have been given a technical win, as he requested it himself.

Unfortunately, my opponent's (Alex R) playing time doesn't suit me at all!
If a replacement is not possible, give him a technical win.

However, after an agreement was already reached, this message, in my opinion, loses its relevance. The decision may not have been entirely correct, as the first option is more valuable than the second, and perhaps a technical win should have been awarded based on this post. But it's not right to blackmail someone with late-night deadlines and demand a victory. What will you achieve if the decision is changed? And most importantly, the organizers and the arbitration committee operate entirely on a voluntary basis and don't receive a single penny. Whether it's good or bad, they are at least doing something. So, respect other people's work, or you will be left without tournaments, and that's it. Is that what you want?

I understand Vigo, who doesn't want to (or can't) play at night, and to avoid arguments, agrees to technical support. I would do the same in his place. But I don't understand Alex, who, excuse me, is being demanding and insisting that they play with him at night, and I understand AK, who is putting an end to this blackmail. If I said anything wrong, I apologize; I just said what I thought.

The next day, they finally started playing, postponed it, BOTH promised to finish it, and then went silent. BOTH deceived me. Neither of them reported within the next 4 days that they couldn't agree.

I replied to you by posting logs confirming that we communicated about this issue, and your logs also confirm that we corresponded on 07/01, 07/02, and finally on 07/06.
Pit, why are you lying in front of everyone?

Yes, here are the logs:
Alex_R ?(07/01/2009 23:51):
Good night... today we connected and played, both after his restarts and one of mine... we decided to postpone it until tomorrow, if possible, we might play the whole game tomorrow, and if not, we'll finish it the day after.

We did communicate, yes. But where is the information that you couldn't agree? Here, it says that everything was fine. There were also no requests from Vitalik to come to an agreement.
Where is the lie?

Message from Pit for LM

The deadline for the round and two extensions has passed, no response.

It meant that I didn't have any information about the game until Monday. I wanted to see a report about the game.

look at the logs, both mine and yours, on 07/06 I gave you a complete breakdown, stating that on 07/01 and 07/02 we played with Vitalik, on 07/03 and 07/04 he didn't show up, on 07/05 Vigo didn't show up, and Vitalik couldn't either. I was ready to play for all 6 days, but it only worked out for 2, but not because of me.

But why didn't you tell me about this earlier, and waited until the end of the round?

But what surprises me even more is that you DIDN'T WANT to sort it out.

And I don't understand what you're trying to achieve.

I think that I don't really deserve the wins.

In most similar situations, I would agree to a draw, but here, based on my assumptions, Vitalik should have scored the same number of points as me, which would ultimately be unfavorable to me. I wanted to either win or lose, which is what I wrote to him, refusing a draw.

but to give a "0" for everything is also unjustified.

How should I understand this? Explain, please, what you want. If you don't know what you want, why should I want to sort it out?
As a player, I don't understand your demands for those wins. And I don't like it. I don't run away from games or opponents. If I don't want to or can't play, I honestly say so and ask for it.
Dirty_Player and I made our decision about your games during the tournament. Then we discussed it in the AC. There are 5 other people in the AC besides us. Contact any of them with a request to review the case. At their request, I will provide everything I have. I will no longer argue with you. I'd rather play with someone else; I have 4 tournaments again.
And one more request: please decide by Monday whether you will play in the final or not, and post about it in the final thread.

The judging is simply not yet at the highest level, and there is a lot of confusion, which the judges sometimes do not have the time, desire, or patience to sort out.

For proper judging, rules are needed first and foremost. In any area of human activity, there are many charters, laws, regulations, etc., that govern every detail.
Besides Adelaide's attempts more than a year ago, we practically have nothing in this direction yet. That's why I'm working on the Tournament Rules, to take into account as many controversial situations as possible and to jointly decide what the judge should do. Now, any decision raises questions, as the judge can only be guided by his intuition and his ideas of fairness. And ideas of fairness and decency are different for everyone. Therefore, it is quite natural that there will be dissatisfied people. I hope that in the future, any decision of the judge will immediately be supported by a quote from the Rules.
I do not have the opportunity to devote myself to Heroes around the clock. The Tournament Rules are under discussion; thank you to everyone who is participating in it. We are moving forward little by little; there is not enough time for everything at once.
For the past month, the AC has been working on the Rules for resolving situations of unfair play. This is now one of the most pressing issues. We tried to take everything into account; let's see how it will work.
Also, the AC is currently, based on this Rule, reviewing several games with suspicions of cheating.

Added after 10 hours 28 minutes
I deleted the last posts; the controversial issue turned into a squabble that has nothing to do with the matter.
The AC has made a decision and will not reconsider it.
Calm down, gentlemen. I'm closing the topic for a week.

I was thinking about this. Maybe everyone will criticize me now, but...
A permanent ban in Might & Magic: Heroes shouldn't be a lifetime sentence. Everyone should have the right to a second chance. If someone tried to cheat and failed, then realized their mistake and repented, maybe a one-year ban would be enough. And if the person learns from their mistake, improves, and shows remorse, why not give them a second chance? Even in criminal law, they usually don't give lifetime sentences.

I was thinking about this. Maybe everyone will criticize me now, but...
The "Cheater of the Month" ban shouldn't be permanent. Everyone should have the right to a second chance. If someone tried to cheat and failed, then realized their mistake and repented, maybe a one-year ban would be enough. And then, if the person learns from their mistake, improves, and shows remorse, why not give them a second chance? Even in criminal law, they usually don't give life sentences.

I agree. Everyone deserves a second chance... my opinion on this is in my signature.

Even in criminal codes, they usually don't give life sentences.

Yes, but the record of him having "served time" doesn't disappear; it remains with him for life. That is, after serving only a year, he has to write "convicted" in all questionnaires for the rest of his life...

So, think for yourselves, decide for yourselves. (c)

Good luck.

The CML should not be imposed for life. Everyone should have the right to a second chance. So a person tried to deceive the people, it didn't work out, he came to his senses and repented. Maybe it would be enough to only impose it for 1 year? And then if the person comes to his senses, reforms, and repents, then why not give a second chance? Even the criminal code usually does not impose life sentences.

We actually already discussed this, and this issue is implicitly resolved in the rule about handling cases of unfair play.

...any HeroesWorld user (not necessarily a game participant) can contact the AC (to any of its members) with suspicions of cheating, if the game/games were played on any other resource in any online HOMM3 tournament between HOMM3 players registered on HeroesWorld.

Here we discussed the statute of limitations for saves. I suggested examining games played within the last year. But the AC members considered that unfair play is not subject to a statute of limitations. Kostya, you yourself spoke about this during the discussion.
And regarding punishment:

the accusations are substantiated, the accused is declared an unfair player, the topic is closed, a detailed summary on this topic is posted on HeroesWorld, and a decision on punishment is made in coordination with the administration. If a player is awarded a Black Mark of Cheater, the AC no longer conducts case reviews for this user. The presence of a Black Mark under the user's avatar blocks his access to all tournaments organized by the TC.

After a year, we remove the CML and immediately receive for review saves from 2 years ago, which we are obligated to consider?