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Posts from A program for determining luck/morality in Heroes 3!
In light of recent events in the global Heroes 3 community, particularly in offline Heroes 3 tournaments, it has become clear that the rules are not perfect and need to be revised, both on HW and on other gaming platforms, due to the fact that morality and luck can be manipulated programmatically.
In this regard, I ask all players, organizers, and individuals directly interested in the successful development of offline tournaments to carefully review this topic and express their opinions.
Based on the general opinion, new rules will be formed on HW!
Sincerely, VDV_forever
About the drop of morality and luck...
Has no one disassembled the executable file and figured this out yet? Or does the person who did this prefer to keep it a secret? :)
Anyone can disassemble.
But only an experienced programmer could understand and interpret the resulting assembly code. Even then, it's not guaranteed that they would succeed 100%.
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
2vbn: I won't make any promises, but I'll try to seriously address the issues of morality and luck. I've already worked with the spell mechanics when I tried to bring "Fear" back into the game (although analyzing the code takes a lot of time, which I'm reluctant to spend).
It has been observed that when repeating certain battles multiple times, each round unfolds identically – the morale and luck rolls, the damage dealt, and the spells cast by the spellcasting units are all the same. This phenomenon was noticed in the Griffin Conservatory. However, in battles against Titans, the Djinn cast different spells as early as the first round. I concluded that in enclosed structures like conservatories, crypts, Naga banks, utopias, etc., the battle map (let's call the entire battle process, step by step, a "map") remains unchanged when the same actions are repeated.
I would like to note some observations that I made while playing the map: When I captured a conservatory, I initiated a battle so that the Wizard would cast Mass Slow in the first round. During multiple battle reloads, I noticed an interesting pattern: if the Wizards are positioned "to the left" of the Sharpshooters (meaning they act before them), they cast "defensive" spells, such as Mass Weakness on the Griffins, Mass Stone Skin, or Shield. It's as if they are trying to reduce the damage inflicted on their own troops by the Griffins. I even conducted an experiment, changing the troop positions randomly, as long as the Wizard was to the left – they cast Stone Skin 14 times in a row! When I positioned the Sharpshooters to the left, which I used to wait in the first round, the Wizard mainly cast "offensive" magic: Bless (in most cases), Slow (less frequently), Haste, presumably allowing the Sharpshooters to fire with Bless after the wait, or to shoot down the Griffins under Mass Slow. I may have written this a bit confusingly, but I hope I made myself clear.
If this is still news to anyone, let me inform you: there is a widely held belief that morale (or luck?) can be influenced by performing certain actions in battle at specific intervals.
I completely agree with this!!! I have heard this from "old" and experienced players. I haven't experimented with this myself, because it's simply not necessary in online play. But once, I played with a player with whom we chatted on ICQ during the game. During the final battle, he told me that his morale was +1 and that, with equal armies, victory was guaranteed. I initially laughed at this, because it's just a matter of chance. But before each shot, there was a long pause (as if he was reciting a children's rhyme and pressing the left mouse button at the right word). I don't remember how many times he got the morale bonus and the outcome of the battle (it was a long time ago), but nevertheless... Until that moment, I considered this to be nonsense, but if Vitaly even says it :cool:, then who knows...:)
2 vbn: Finally, a detailed description that we've all been waiting for! I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I appreciate the amount of work that went into it. Respect!
I've come to the conclusion that in internal structures like conservatories, crypts, naga banks, utopias, etc., the battle map (let's call the entire battle process, step by step, a map) remains unchanged when the same actions are repeated.
Here's an example from another tournament: I attack a group of angels, which, as it turns out, consisted of angels and archangels. So, the archangel had a morale check 27 times in a row on the first turn))). When the army was changed and an attack was made on a different day, within the first 10 attempts, the archangels didn't move twice even once!
I think that morale is determined not only by the turns in battle, but also before the battle begins, depending on the composition of the army and the arrangement of the units.
Одна древняя легенда гласит, Что темный дракон весь мир покорит, Темный дракон - безликая тень, Теперь навсегда ночь сменит день. Он свергнет всех местных Богов, Ни сила, ни воля не сдержат его. Рыцарь, король - все одно для него, С ним в битве исчезнет и зло, и добро.
Here's an example from another tournament: I attacked a squad of angels, which, as it turned out, consisted of angels and archangels. So, the archangel's morale failed 27 times in a row on the first turn))). When the army was changed and an attack was launched on a different day, within the first 10 attempts, the archangels didn't get a second turn even once!
I think morale is determined not only by the turns in battle but also before the battle begins, depending on the army composition and the arrangement of units.
Nothing surprising! Before the battle, temporary intervals are determined, and since the computer makes moves with the same delays, if the bad luck trigger works on the first turn, it will work in 100% of cases...
Here are my observations regarding morale... On the battlefield, there are "morale" tiles... i.e., when a unit moves and lands on one of these tiles, it gets to move again... although it's difficult to check these morale tiles during battle, they are there... and as I've noticed, their location is generated differently each turn... These are my observations about morale... which have helped me save archers on more than one occasion (although they were discovered by chance... but the archers remained unharmed).
You are 100% wrong! If morale triggers, it will trigger on any cell! Personally verified in practice!! Айвенго;188778
The walkthrough is impressive! Question for the esteemed vbn: how do you determine a hero's movement range in the editor?
With your permission, I will answer for the esteemed vbn. In the map editor, it is impossible to determine the movement range, because it is always different and is recalculated every day for each hero on the map, in the tavern (+ in the tavern with the companion), or in the dungeon. There is a so-called starting movement range, which is also different for each hero; this is very well described in the Physics Manual.
Message from K0Lb@zzeR There are "morale" cells on the battlefield...
Dirty_Player;188782You are 100% wrong! If morale triggers, it will trigger on any cell! I have personally verified this in practice!!
Why are you saying I'm wrong? It does happen sometimes. For example, in the "War of the Strongest" and "Capture" tournaments, I even looked for such cells...and found them. However, it doesn't work in every battle. Therefore, this is just as valid a hypothesis about the morale mechanic as any other.
2 Vbn: I hope you're not offended by my attempt to rush you. The description turned out to be very clear and instructional overall. Thank you for your hard work. Regarding the details: vbn;188671
We have 27 snipers, which means the expert Archery skill is necessary. The first person (after gaining 1 level) who can obtain it is only Enova, since she has advanced Archery at the start. Therefore, the choice was not difficult, especially considering that Enova was given Luck.
An interesting point that is important to me. Why is betting on expert Archery more important than betting on expert Luck (Leadership)? At first glance, rolling several L or Morale checks more than offsets the additional damage gained from expert Archery. Or am I missing something? And in general, was an option considered, for example, with Myllich (expert Leadership, starting Archery at level 3)? And if so, why was it rejected? Of course, generating Morale specifically for snipers in the console is very tedious, but perhaps with Myllich it would have been possible to get Slow from the wizard on the first turn? Besides, the battle with the titans performed by Myllich would have made it possible to save the angel. After all, the wizard could cast "Haste" BEFORE the titans' turn, and then a harpy could be used to block them instead of the angel. Minus 1 to morale, of course, but this penalty disappears after the harpy dies. Or does it?vbn;188671
Now for the step-by-step description. Day 1 05) We buy Enova (followed by the Dragon mage). Day 1 18) We buy Pir (followed by the Dragon mage).
After Pir, was Moner likely put into the tavern, and not Dragon? vbn;188671
For example, it was not possible to achieve the Wizard casting Slow in the 1st round.
Meaning, the battle map was stable, but none of the initial troop layouts by slot provided an option with the wizard having Slow on the first turn. Correct? vbn;188671
16) Kilgor takes the artifacts and troops from Gretchin, the latter resigns, and Kilgor destroys Haart, losing a harpy and a couple of troglodytes, then visits the Cyclops Vault
This was the only dark spot for me in your walkthrough and, as luck would have it, you only mentioned it in passing. :) Kilgor is good, and together with Rumble - even better. But as for the troops - only 5 harpies, 4 snipers, and trogs. Did you also take a wizard and generate Slow? Or how? Please describe this battle and the losses.
vbn;188671
26) It should be noted that with 3 markets in the mercenaries guild, it was more profitable to exchange some troops for gold, and some for resources.
Most likely, there is a base price for all creatures in gold. When converting to gems, the result is rounded to the nearest whole number. I should take note of this nuance. vbn;188671
Many people here talk about generating morale using delays. If this is news to anyone else, let me inform you: there is an authoritative opinion that morale (luck?) can be manipulated by performing certain steps in battle after a specific interval of time. But it is still unclear what these delays depend on and what they equal for each specific case. But the question is quite interesting, and I would, of course, like to study and discuss it.
From what has been said, at least three interesting conclusions can be drawn: 1. The calculation algorithm for rolling L (Morale) is launched not after the mouse click, but BEFORE! 2. During the pause (from the moment the turn begins to the moment of the mouse click on the action), the game's program code repeatedly, with some periodicity, runs the calculation algorithm, giving a different result ("Yes" or "No") each time. And this result is valid until the next launch of the algorithm. 3. One can even roughly estimate the periodicity of these launches. From 0.5 to 2 seconds. Because if the algorithm were launched every 0.1 sec, we would not be able to notice or track it, and any simple counting rhyme would have an error greater than the duration of the period. For similar reasons, the period is unlikely to be 2 sec or more. vbn;188671
And I started writing about all this because I actually wanted to share another observation. When conducting the battle with the titans on one computer (Windows XP) and another (Windows 2000), the course of the battles was different, and it was impossible to achieve on the 2nd computer what happened on the 1st, and vice versa. But for the console, everything repeated regardless of which computer the battle was conducted on.
It looks very much like the issue is not the version of Windows, but the personal characteristics of each specific OS. So to speak, in the unique individual fingerprint. Including all installed applications, the configuration of the specific computer, and even the "virus bouquet" :) . This version is supported by the fact that similar suspicions existed when studying randomness in other games, not HoMM. Additionally, when reproducing the battle in the console from your save, my wizard generated different casts. With the same sniper actions (always pressing "Shield"), the wizard generated: 1. Bloodlust. 2,3,4,5 times: Haste 6 times: Slow! :smile03: :)
"...Many people here talk about generating morale through delays. If this is still news to someone, let me inform you: there is a widely accepted opinion that morale (or luck?) can be influenced by performing certain actions in battle at specific intervals..."
I don't think it's that complicated. I'm trying to figure out the second aspect. I haven't found any timer dependencies yet. Interestingly, "good" and "bad" morale are implemented in two separate procedures, while luck is implemented in just one.
Dear Eldgernon! Thank you for these interesting questions that encourage me to try and explain how and in what direction the human (in this case, my) mind works while playing a map.
I will gladly answer each of them a little later; I will try to do it today, or at the latest, tomorrow.
I would just like to note that I didn't come up with anything particularly special. I just didn't have the time. And, undoubtedly, we can discuss everything together, and we will certainly see that there were other, much more advantageous ways to play (for example, regarding the choice of Enova-Mullich).
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth; Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
AlexSpl
