Posts from Discussion: 8MM6 template.

I don’t think it makes sense to keep this topic open for much longer. But I couldn’t think of anywhere else to post my message other than in a new topic. The main point is this: Why does everyone play with the 2sm4d3 template? Why not include the 8mm6 template as a standard for online play? I think it’s very interesting. I’ve tried playing with it several times, with 6 players, and I had a great time. If anyone has a file that I can use to generate this template consistently, please share a link. With that, I’ll take my leave.

Download the 8MM6 template

Legend:

Zone contents:

[1-8],15,16,[19-22],25,26 - many [500-3000], medium [3000-6000], few [10000-15000]

[9-14],17,18,23,24 - many [3000-6000], medium [10000-15000], few [15000-20000]

Optimal map size: XL or XL+U

Terrain of zones:

1-8 - determined by the type of city in this zone

9-26 - arbitrary

Cities: Any

Neutral monsters: Any

Comments:

Almost symmetrical template :) Designed for 8 players. Many cities and "delicious" zones. No gold mines!

Zones 18, 17, 23, 24 are approximately twice as small in area as the others.

What I DON'T like about this template:
- The first player, unlike the other 7, also starts with a mercury mine;
- Mines are scattered "unevenly" across the zones. In the mini-square of the first player, there is a noticeable abundance of sulfur and mercury mines, but you have to run far for crystals/dragon stones, and even then, you need to guess the right direction (19 -> 11 or 19 -> 12, which are no different). Playing as Castle with the main resource being crystal/dragon stone becomes slightly more difficult due to the lack of nearby mines, so you can only rely on treasure rooms. For the second player, the situation is similar, only vice versa;
- It is unclear why zones 17, 18, 23, 24 were singled out in this way when they are filled just like zones [9-14], and access to the first four is guarded twice as strongly. Perhaps the importance of the latter should have been reduced so that goodies (utopias in particular) could only be found in zones 17, 18, 23, 24.

Information taken from the website http://dreamcatcher.metroland.ru.

And they say that thoughts aren't material :) I've spent the whole day today trying to find some other playable template, because I'm already tired of the SMs. I've reviewed many templates that players from various resources use, consulted with specialists, and concluded that the 8mm6 template is just what's needed! And it turns out there is already a suggestion thread))).
I propose renaming this thread to a discussion of this template, so that based on these discussions, amendments can be made to the seasonal game rules, and we can also try to organize a trial tournament
This template is much more complex than a simple SM (2sm4d) due to the large number of zones and passages between them. But if you study it well, navigating it will be no trouble at all: by mines (certain types of mines are present only in certain zones), by neutral villages, by the location of the computers (this template is played with computers, settings are provided below), and so on. The presence of computers adds its own charm to the game, forcing the development of a slightly different strategy. That is, you might not develop the economy at all; it's easier to kill the computer at the start of the second week, and he'll build you a capitol for it :). But on the other hand, if you don't kill him in time, you might get a beating yourself :smile40:. In SMs, the whole strategy boils down to gathering as many wyverns, angels, and ducks as possible, breaking the GO and attacking the opponent. Well, if you don't want to fight the GO, you come through the secondary. In 8mm6, a lot of effort needs to be put into scouting (maybe the useless "scouting" skill will become not-so-useless;)), to orient oneself faster in choosing the right direction. The player's skill level will also play a bigger role—how they can most effectively clear various resps in chains (perhaps the turn time will need to be increased to 6 minutes; I am ALL FOR the increase)—rather than just running down one road through the secondary (like in SM) collecting goodies along the way. In other words: the 8mm6 template is more professional compared to 2sm4d, "random victories" are minimized, it's a step up a level, so to speak :). But to play on this template, an amendment to the rules is necessary, which will differ slightly from the games on the 2sm4d template, namely:
Starting Settings
humans – 2; computers – 6; teams – 0; map size XL+U
The map size might scare some people, but due to the huge number of zones, this template is generated correctly only on XL+U (on smaller maps, zones will simply overlap, so the terrain shifts will be colossal, not to mention the blocks). According to reports from players who use these templates, games often end as early as the 2nd week due to the absence of GO.
Shifted Guards
As already mentioned: this template consists of a large number of zones, transitions between them, and accordingly, a large number of guards protecting it all. Considering that guards are often shifted, it's simply impossible to determine who is guarding what. Therefore, on this template, it will be permitted to penetrate from resp to resp through shifted guards. However, guards protecting objects must still be broken as usual.
Use of Dimension Door
In SMs, there was a limit of one jump per day per hero. But if one player "takes to their heels" across the map from an opponent who has surpassed them in stats and troops, hoping to collect ducks and angels and boost their stats, then on this template, this match could drag on for a long time, as they would be running in circles after each other. Therefore, there is a proposal to limit the use of DD to twice a day per hero
Bans and Restrictions
Everything seems clear here, but we need to discuss and decide: what to do if, for example, a necromancy amplifier is built in a captured computer castle? The computer is such a jerk that he doesn't follow the game rules :). I suggest allowing the use of bans if they were violated by the computer.
Red Rush
On some sites, red rush is allowed on this template because it doesn't play a significant role here. But personally, I am against it.
All other rules will remain unchanged, but if anyone has suggestions, or perhaps I missed something, please speak up here on each point, rather than waiting for the rules to be published and then starting to criticize them :).
Thank you for your attention.
Yes, almost forgot: at this link, you will find the description and structural diagram of this template, as well as the rmg.txt, which needs to be placed in the "Data" folder:
http://dreamcatcher.metroland.ru/templates/8mm6/index.html

P.S. I have NEVER played on this template myself.
P.P.S. No one will force anyone who doesn't want to play on such a template to do so)); SMs will still be counted in the season. This is for enthusiasts, so to speak, but we should suggest to the respected SS-D that playing on this template should award more points than 2sm4d ;), because it is more difficult :p

And now for my humble IMHO; Invisible is already aware :)
My proposal is not just to allow Dimension Door twice, but to ban it entirely :smile29: Just like Town Portal and fly. control on such a map template definitely decides the game! The way the zones are connected is such that many nearby points on the map, within jumping distance, are weeks of walking distance away, and fighting control without control is practically impossible. But, on the other hand, a walking game risks dragging on for long hours, if not days :D In general, on this template, if one wishes, you can drive logisticians in circles forever. A kind of infinite recursion :smile04: Therefore, my second IMHO is to limit the game time, say, to 6 weeks, after which a mandatory final battle should be scheduled.

P.S. I personally have NEVER played on this template.
P.P.S. No one is going to force anyone who doesn't want to play on such a template)), SMs will still be taken into account in the season as before. This is more of a niche preference, but we should suggest to the esteemed SS-D that playing on this template should grant more points than 2sm4d ;), because it is more difficult.:p

I'll try to play over the weekend; it's interesting to see the template and how difficult it is.
Let's put it this way — I need to see how the computers will behave, whether they'll lag, or even resist. It's probably no secret that whoever reaches the computers first will have their chances increase manifold.
It's also interesting to look at resources with artifacts and Dragon Utopia, because saying that template 4... is balanced would be a huge stretch.

Regarding points — it's a bit more complicated there. But I think Vitalik will adjust the program if needed, although it won't be simple; you have to think about how to come up with something hhhh. But that's for later.

Added after 18 hours 2 minutes
I reviewed the template.
On HL — it will take very long, lots of terrain, many roads; I created several rends, and in each there was a portal not far from the cities. I don't even know, probably won't fit. There are enough Rs everywhere, guards are small but numerous, artifacts at each respawn are roughly the same (for players). Mines are as per the scheme.
On L — lots of terrain, adjacent resps, lots of small stuff, resources are normal, there are teleports on every res (high probability of meeting in week 1), artifacts are roughly the same. It's playable.

ГО is completely absent. Guards can be broken through with first-week armies; you can travel far.
Artifacts are protected by decent guards.
Dragon Utopia exists.
There was 1 min practice on each rend (on other resps).

I wouldn't say the template is more difficult, I think not, you just have to travel a lot. If one person has teleport or flight, you'll never catch them; there are plenty of mountains.

As it seems to me, it probably won't fit. Well, in principle, any map is playable.
Probably where you go will be important here; there are many roads and it's hard to tell where the opponent is. Guards along the roads are roughly equal.

I don't even know.

It seems to me that it probably won't be suitable.

Why wouldn't it be suitable? Well, if two people want to play on this template, or even on a custom map, that's their right. One person wrote a report, and another confirmed it. ;)

On random maps, the general trend is that the larger the map size, the more skill plays a role and the less luck does. I think it's obvious why.

Therefore, XL templates are considered more indicative of players' skill, as well as more diverse in terms of potential plot developments.

Regarding the duration of games on 8mm6 — in my personal experience, there were a few games lasting over a month (5 weeks, nothing longer), where I was running away from the opponent across the entire map. Most games ended by the 3rd week. But that is because I play aggressively and read the template well. Although, if you're not used to it, you can get confused by the abundance of roads.

XL is only 33% larger than L (144 vs 108); with double Dimension Door and expert Town Portal, reaching any point on the map quickly is no problem.

Why wouldn't that work? If two people want to play on this map, or even on a fixed version of it, that's their right. One person submitted a report, and the other confirmed it. ;)

Of course, that's perfectly fine, and I said that you can play any map.
I mean, a previously approved template. :smile44:

It will take a very long time on HL...

Well, I didn't post our game with Dream on this template for no reason. We finished the game on 125, and I specifically emphasized that! We played on XL+U!!!

I wouldn't say the template is more difficult; I don't think so, you just need to travel a lot.

The template is more complex than SM maps precisely because of the more complex structural scheme.

the larger the map size, the more skill matters and the less luck matters

+1
In general, I liked the template (including the presence of computers), so if anyone wants to play on 8mm6, I'm always ready.
I'm tired of SM maps; I'm already sick of this primitive template!

There used to be a Chaos League in Moscow. Out of the 3 allowed templates, this one was perhaps the most popular. As for the game dragging on — I disagree. A game lasts 4-5 weeks. Matches are lively. The "snowballing" effect isn't as pronounced; you have to clear the whole map. There are far more cans. Utopias are located more evenly. The game is built either on rushing (it's quite possible to locate the opponent quickly) or on development. First, you clear the nearest bot (for the red player, the nearest computer is usually brown; for the blue, it's green). Then comes hero leveling and building, breaking into hives and cans. Again, cans are harder to take than hives, so you need to improve your skill. Then come the Utopias; taking them is quite possible with a good respawn by the third week, even on 200% difficulty. The game revolves around obtaining the dimensional door — in a Utopia, a Magic Tower, or Pandora. Control is gained by whoever plays better — they simply have more chances: they make decisions faster on whether it's better to build and upgrade dwellings or go for the Magic Tower, they break cans faster, and they enter Utopias faster. Message Mizrael or Scorp and ask for a game — I think they won't refuse. Here are the rules of the old Chaos League. By the way, I saw Assu on our forum; he is one of the most experienced Chaos League players, message him, he can tell you more about this template than I can.

Games are played on version HMM3 SOD v.3.2*.

A random map is played, created with the following parameters:
size XL; 8 players; 0 computers; all team = 0; water = none; Monster= strong; Diff = impossible. Time Limit = 4 min. With Dungeon.
By mutual agreement, the map creation conditions may be changed.
Turn order is determined by lot.

The selection of starting castles is as follows:
Playing with Conflux is forbidden. Using identical castles is also forbidden.
Opponents draw lots to determine who chooses the castle first. Then they cross out castles alternately in the open. The one who chooses the castle first crosses out 2 castles, the second — 3 castles. The one who chooses the castle second starts the crossing out, then the other crosses one out, and so on, one castle at a time, until 3 remain. The choice is made from these**.
Starting hero selection.
It is forbidden to choose: Sir Mullich, Adela, Ryland, Solmyr, Cyra, Aislinn, Thant, Isra, Vidomina, Alamar, Jeddite, Deemer, Ciele, Luna. If these heroes come to you during the game, you may use them only until their level increases by 2 compared to what it was at the moment of acquisition. Upon reaching this barrier, you are obliged to remove the hero before the end of your turn***.

Starting resource is chosen at will.

After the first map generation, the starting hero and resource can only be changed with the opponent's consent.

Each player is granted the right to request a map regeneration within their first 3 turns in the following cases:
a) They are blocked (all passages are locked by monsters and there is not a single free chest).
b) Their stone or wood mine is guarded by monsters of level 3 or higher, or level 2 archers.
c) The player is given a village or more than one castle at the start.
d) If the starting hero is not level 1.
e) Once without explaining the reasons. But no more.
In cases c) and d), a restart is mandatory!
A restart is also provided if the opponents can attack each other up to the 8th day of the game.
Try to discuss all restart conditions with your opponent before the game.

If a stalemate occurs in battle, the attacking player must retreat****.

It is forbidden to use Cartographer, Hill Fort, or collect the "Cloak of the Undead King" set.
It is also forbidden to take and level up Diplomacy or recruit neutral troops. A hero who, for any reason, has obtained Diplomacy (for example, from a scholar, or you bought them that way) is equated to a forbidden hero and must be removed after they rise two levels.

It is forbidden to use 4th and 5th level magic scrolls.

In captured Confluxes, it is forbidden to place the Grail, as well as to buy level 6 and 7 troops (buying them in the Refugee Camp is also forbidden). However, it is allowed to build and use the Mage Guild university.

If a guarded artifact or Pandora is placed such that it can be taken for free, it can only be done using DD or Fly. Otherwise, the guard must be defeated first.

Using the bug to view the opponent's hero is forbidden.

Selling artifacts above their actual value is forbidden.

Using the map editor during the game is forbidden.

Violation of these rules leads to disqualification.

The organizers reserve the right to make any changes to the rules without explaining the reasons.

* In this version, the so-called Double Casting bug is fixed.

** Thus, if after crossing out 2 castles each, in the view of the "second castle chooser" there remains 1 strong and 3 weak castles, they can cross it out so that it doesn't go to the opponent. If, in their view, there remain 2 strong and 2 weak castles, they will cross out a weak one to have the opportunity to also choose a strong one after the opponent chooses a strong castle.

*** Example: You won a prison. A level 10 Deemer is there. You can use him at your discretion until he reaches level 12. Repeated purchase of such a hero is forbidden.

**** For example, if one has a stack of Stone Golems left, and the other has one Ghost Dragon, which they constantly fly with so that it cannot be attacked. When such a situation occurs in the presence of handcuffs, the attacking player loses the hero to the defender, even if this requires loading an autosave and dismissing troops.

These old, familiar Chaos League rules wouldn't work here for several reasons: firstly, they were written for a difficulty of 200% (where everything is set to zero – both money and resources). Even then, they later released a special patch that didn't give zero money, but 5000, and 5 wood and ore, because there were constant restarts if the treasure chest wasn't found in the first three days, and so on. Plus, a number of heroes were later revised or changed (like with Mühl, this was done in a special version of Soda – the Championship, where there was also a patch that disabled the necromancy skill, but at the same time, necromancers were allowed to recruit vampires and choose Galtran at the start, and, as numerous experiences have shown, necromancers stopped being a "cheating" faction that opponents were afraid to let their rivals play, and instead became just a good, strong faction that could be defeated, even if the game dragged on...). As such, the rules for the 8mm6 HL template can be taken from the Portal (where a tournament is currently being held using this template), or from Heroes.by, where only strong players play on this template. Because, as Wicc correctly pointed out above, on this template, at this difficulty level (160) and with this size (HL with an underground), the role of luck is much less important, and the factor of strong, good gameplay begins to have a much greater influence, which allows you to emerge victorious even from bad situations (which is not the case on smaller maps, where the factor of luck plays a decisive role)

I don't think we should add a bonus to the rating for playing on this map template. Some players might not want to play on it at all, and it should be a voluntary choice. Otherwise, they'll be at a disadvantage in terms of points.

I completely agree with the point system. The template isn't any more complicated. Anyone who wants to play will play, that's clear. The template itself is about mastering the construction of chains. It's not for me, so I don't bother with it too much, which is why I don't play very often. Maybe someone noticed or not - I played that template again yesterday, for about 20 minutes (I had the time), and here's what happened: on 1-1-2, I took an angel, and that was it, I just started dominating, simply going straight along the road in any direction + 100 troglodytes, complete stomp. What I want to say is that there were a couple more difficult encounters, but I didn't even look, I was afraid that they were even weaker than level 1, and that's it, with a well-constructed strategy, if the opponent is unlucky, victory is guaranteed. There's a high probability of getting lucky because of the small guards on the roads (with an angel, it's a disaster), on level 4... it's more difficult, you can't just go straight in any direction, there are more guards. Just so you know. And also, I specifically checked - I reloaded 5 times for Dungeon, and every time, without exception, it was in the underground.

I'm currently playing a game in The Eastern Era on this map. The game time is 2.2.3. I haven't even found my opponent yet... The total real time for the two sessions is about 8 hours.

This happens if no one has been given a DD for a long time. At this point, it's about persistence. One or two side heroes get small armies from secondary Castles and fight over resources. Pandoras and Dragon Utopias are very scattered; there is practically no "over-farming" as such. Magic Towers are built up to search for Flight or DD. In one game, someone built three of them up to level 5. Dragon Utopias are also searched for—they should be on this template, especially in the underworld. And expert Air or Earth vision wouldn't hurt.
If the opponent is Tower—we look where there is snow; Swamp—then we look at the swamp, and so on.
Sometimes it helps.