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Offline Kamikaze
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#16
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The map is excellent, the balance is 100%. It's very interesting. It's exactly the kind of map needed for online play. When I played it in Heroes 8, I didn't like it for some reason. One drawback: we played it in the Autumn 2007 tournament with Dudzh and spent 10 hours of real time on the game. Next time, I'll think about whether it's worth getting involved in such an UNDERTAKING! But if it's the final match, then it's perfect!

Индивидуальный и клановый рейтинги Heroes World
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Offline Fireball
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#17
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Message from K0Lb@zzeR
I would like to ask the participants of this tournament to share their thoughts about the map here.
In my opinion,
the map itself is quite nice and well-made, but it feels a bit empty in places. The weakest part of the map is definitely the quests; I didn't quite understand what their purpose is, both in single-player and online modes. However, I liked the exploration aspect. The portal system, the small amount of water, the penalty surfaces, and the roads – all of it fits well.
As practice has shown, the map is well-suited for single-player; it offers many more development paths than it might seem at first glance, and they are all quite different, which is the most important thing. But it's not entirely clear why the starting diplomacy was removed for the tournament. As a result, we had to spend several (on average) hours digging through a lot of heroes. It was quite a test of endurance. The large number of potential battles at the limit made the map quite difficult, perhaps even too difficult for a regular tournament (which is why not too many people submitted their final results), but we don't seek easy paths, and for a larger tournament, we can make it even more challenging.
The map is also well-suited for a long online game, but you need to start with a fort and ban Diplomacy. And, perhaps, Necropolis should be banned as well.
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Offline AmberSoler
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#19
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Fireball;117718
But it's not entirely clear why the starting diplomacy was removed for the tournament. As a result, I had to spend several (on average) hours sifting through a bunch of heroes. It's like a test of endurance.
I completely agree - if the goal was to remove diplomacy from the game, it should have been banned as a secondary skill in the map settings - and that would have been clear... But as it is, a real workaround still exists, it just takes a lot of time, which is not efficient for offline play.
Сначала было слово...
FizMiG v.2.0 *** Очередное обновление справочника! *** http://vk.com/fizmig

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Offline K0Lb@zzeR
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#20
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Fireball;117718
In my opinion,
the map itself is quite nice and well-designed, but it feels a bit empty in places. The weakest part of the map is definitely the quests; I didn't understand their purpose, either in offline or online play. However, I liked the exploration aspect. The portal system, a bit of water, penalty surfaces, and roads – everything fits the theme.
As practice has shown, the map is well-suited for offline play; there are far more development paths than it might seem at first glance, and they are all quite different, which is the main thing. But it's not entirely clear why the starting diplomacy was removed for the tournament. As a result, I had to spend several (on average) hours digging through a bunch of heroes. It's like a test of endurance. The large number of potential battles at the limit made the map quite difficult, perhaps even too difficult for a regular tournament (which is why not too many people submitted their final results), but we don't seek easy paths, and for the World Cup, we can make it even more challenging.
The map is also well-suited for long online games, but you need to start with a fort and ban Diplomacy. And, perhaps, Necropolis should be banned.

I would like you to post your Walkthrough of this map on the 8th stage of the World Cup. Many will be interested in reading a possible development scenario on this map.

The map version used in the tournament was not the latest, but that was my oversight (I didn't update it in the thread in time).
Regarding diplomacy... the map was created specifically for the final of the online tournament, which is organized by Adelaide... and all the changes that satisfied the tournament rules were made to the map, i.e., the map was tailored specifically for this tournament. But for some reason, no one played it in the spring, but I think it will happen in the fall.

I disagree about the fort... a well-timed fort will determine a significant advantage on the map at the beginning of the game (this is true for online play).

Sincerely, K0Lb@zzeR
:smile13: [ТУРНИР] "Гонка за Лидером" :smile13:
:smile28: [M] "Я и моя тень" - "I am and my shadow" :smile28:
:smile16: "Быстрая смерть" - "Fast Death" :smile16:
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Offline ewgeniy
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#21
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The map is excellent, the balance is 100%. It's very interesting.
I agree.
This is exactly what's needed for online play.
But I disagree... personally, I think a map shouldn't have perfect balance or symmetry... there should be at least some element of randomness.

One drawback: we played it in the Autumn 2007 tournament with Dudzh and spent 10 hours of real time on the game. Next time, I'll think about whether it's worth getting involved in such an ENDEAVOR!
Yeah, we had the same thing with Uranus 9...
В. Уэйтс©
Но поскольку я нищий,
у меня лишь есть мечты.
Я разостлал свои мечты пред вашими ногами.
Ступайте бережно, ибо вы ступаете по моим мечтам.

временно ушел с форума, переодически заглядываю. кому нужен пишите в скайп ewgeniy1985. в аське 384385000 очень редко.
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Offline invisible
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#22
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Oh, finally, I can ask the map creator directly about his "creation" :)
I played a bit on this map. My impressions: the map is good and quite playable, BUT:
1. It's very long in terms of gameplay time, and it's a bit stressful and lengthy for online play. As they say, you'll be playing until morning.
2. There are too many quests, just too many. You still won't be able to complete them all in a duel, especially the one at the bottom of the map, near the Azure Dragons. By the time you develop and collect the most useful quests, it's already time to attack your opponent, or he'll come to you. Even without these quests, the game lasts more than 2 months. You can finish it in less time, but then it will be a game without quests.
3. For me, the most important question is: why are all the starting skills of the red player's starting hero replaced with Expert Wisdom? Why, if the 3rd tier doesn't appear until the second month? It turns out that there's no point in choosing a hero at all – they will all be like identical twins, only with different names ;) Oh, almost forgot, the blue player doesn't have this privilege; that is, his starting hero has normal secondary skills. Is this how it's supposed to be? If so, why? :smile32:
You've certainly made the Sniper a formidable opponent :) I would rather face 5-9 Angels than 55 Snipers. It's very difficult to defeat them with slow-moving units without tactics. Difficult, I mean, in the 2nd week, starting without forts. And it's boring to stay in the same place for 3 weeks, especially if you've already cleared your entire territory.
Whatever the case, the map is good – well done. How much time did you spend creating it? The fact that we (and I in particular :) ) are criticizing it here is normal. It's impossible to create a perfect map on the first try. Every map needs to be tested extensively with different factions, and then the flaws will become apparent. I would add a witch hut with tactics or a dwelling for fast monsters to block the snipers, or a pylon with a teleport spell to the starting wisdom, somewhere near the castle. This would add more variety to the starting strategies.
Yes, and one more thing: although it's most difficult for the Necromancer to defeat the Snipers, playing against the Necromancer on this map is pointless :). More than 3000 skeletons means the game is over.
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Offline Fireball
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#23
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I would like you to post your walkthrough of this map on stage 8 of the campaign. Many people would be interested in reading a different version of how the events unfold on this map.
You could place a link to the topic about stage 8, where the walkthrough has already been posted, or to a separate topic about walkthroughs, which VDV Forever will probably create. You can copy it into this discussion or use any other option. Do as you see fit.
I disagree about the fort... a well-timed fort will determine a significant advantage on the map at the beginning of the game (this is true for online play).
I just got the impression that on this map, the main shortage is wood and stone, rather than valuable resources and money. And the castles that can take them as a starting bonus will have some advantage. And if both castles are like that, then the lack of a fort will only slow down the game. But that's just my opinion.

I would add a witch hut with tactics or dwellings for fast monsters to block snipers somewhere near the castle.
It's already there; it's a conserve. Just not 1 angel.
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Offline invisible
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#24
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But it exists, this "can of sardines." Just as long as it's not just 1 Angel.
Well, you know, I don't know which is easier to break through: 55 snipers or a "can of sardines" with at least two Angels, which is standing on grass in the second week, playing on 200% difficulty and starting without forts. ;) Let's say, even if you manage to do that (I doubt it), two Angels won't kill 15+25+15 snipers, especially since they won't reach them in one turn without tactics and will be shot down in the first round. :) And if the "can of sardines" has three Angels? That means you've lost, because 150 griffons on grass at the start is a lot.
I just got the impression that on this map, the main shortage is wood and stone, not valuable resources and money. And castles that can take them as a starting bonus will have some advantage. And if both castles are like that, then the lack of a fort will only slow down the game. But that's just my opinion.
I completely agree. Stone and wood are worth their weight in gold, and the lack of forts just prolongs the game by a week.
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Offline Fireball
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#25
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Let's go through it step by step.
Well, you know, I don't know what's easier to break through: 55 snipers or a Castle defended by at least two Angels, which is on the second week, playing on 200% difficulty and starting without any Forts.
Yes, let's consider the 200% difficulty without Forts.
Well, let's say even if you manage to do that (I doubt it),
It depends on which Castle.
Playing as Necropolis, on this map, by week 2, you have 11 Vampire Lords (which is clearly too many for a Castle), who can kill Griffons without any losses on the approaches to the Castle. The hero can easily visit the Guild and have Stone Skin, Shield, and Bloodlust. With at least one of these spells, 11 Vampire Lords can take a regular Castle on week 2 without losses, and if you manage to find Attack or Defense spells, it's even easier, and don't forget about the 6*1 skeletons, which can be used as cannon fodder. The main thing is that the Griffons don't have high morale on every turn. If there's a group of Royal Griffons, which is always known before the battle, it's a bit more difficult, but it's quite often played.
then 2 Angels won't kill 15+25+15 snipers, especially since they won't reach them in one turn without tactics and will be shot down in the first round.
But here you are definitely wrong; the Angels from positions 2, 4, and 6 can reach the snipers. 11 Lords and 2 Angels can break through the garrison without losses (again, if the snipers don't have extremely high morale, then the Angels might fall). And the hero might also have Haste, so the Lords can reach them as well.
And if the Castle is defended by three Angels? That means you've lost, because 150 Griffons on the map at the start is a lot.
Yes, in reality, it's not possible to take it on week 3, only in theory, but on week 3, everything will be fine; you can wait, capturing dwellings, mines, Gnomish Stronghold, a Tomb, and killing everyone on the map.
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Offline Yser
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#26
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I don't know what you found appealing about this map, but in any case, it's the result of human effort, and that should be respected. There shouldn't be such a perfect balance. K0Lb@zzeR, I respect you, but I create more interesting maps myself. Here's a map made by hand: . Maybe you'll like it:o
Нам хорошо иногда, Богу - всегда.

Счастье - на стороне того, кто доволен :)
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Offline invisible
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#27
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But here you are definitely wrong; angels from positions 2, 4, 6 reach the sharpshooters.
on non-native ground they don't reach, but I remembered that it's on grass and with 13 speed the angels do reach if positioned correctly.
on this map by week 2 we have 11 vampire lords (clearly not enough for Castle), which kill griffins without losses on the approach to the conservatory. The hero can quite manage to visit the guild and have Stone Skin, Shield, Bloodlust
You've probably studied this map poorly, so you think that way.
First of all, vampires with a castle in the first week on this map is something out of science fiction. And in the guild, the esteemed Kolbasser has banned the appearance of spells like "haste" and "slow" :). Horses with a castle are only built by week 2 through inhuman efforts (sometimes wood and ore need to be traded at the market to build them).
With at least one of the spells, 11 vampires take a regular conservatory 2 without losses
Well, that's understandable, but even if you manage to build 11 vampires (impossible on this map by week 2), the conservatory might turn out to be a triple, and then it's either a loss or sacrificing some hero that you'd hate to lose, because money is also scarce.
The main thing is that the griffins don't have morale on every step
One morale and that's it, because there are no artifacts for defense or attack in this area of the map.
And it's not a fact that you'll be playing Necropolis. Try playing each faction and finding the optimal strategy for each :rolleyes:
Actually, on this map by week 2 it's unrealistic to break through with any Castle :D . I got carried away. I meant week 3 ;) On the first week when playing as Castle, I only managed to build knights with a Stronghold.
Yes, on week 3 in reality it's not taken, only by myth, but by week 3 everything will be fine, you can wait, grabbing dwellings, mines, the dwarf hut, the crypt, and killing everyone at the respawn.
I wouldn't dare to tackle a triple conservatory on grass on this map even by the third week — better to try to break through the sharpshooters. Morale is a bad thing, because it's online and it could cost you the game.
There shouldn't be such perfect balance
this map is for an online tournament, which is exactly where balance is needed.
Here's a handcrafted map for you
I looked at the map for literally 3 minutes, and it's not even close to suitable for an online pair tournament. Yes, it might be interesting for a walkthrough, but not for sparring matches.
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Offline Fireball
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#28
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You probably haven't studied this map well enough, that's why you're reasoning like that.
First, vampires with a Castle on the first week on this map is something out of a fantasy novel. And in the guild, the respected Kolbasser forbade the appearance of such spells as "Haste" and "Slow".

Did you read carefully? 11 vampires is a Stronghold plus 1 from the spawning point.
And for the "canned food" quest, you need other spells, although you can also get "Slow".
Well, that's understandable, but even if you manage to build 11 vampires (which is impossible on this map on the second week), the "canned food" quest might turn out to be a Tier 3 quest, and then either you lose, or you sacrifice a hero you don't want to lose, because you don't have much money either.
Besides the tournament on this map, I played once as the Necropolis. I had 11 Lords on the 2nd week and took
a regular "canned food" quest, Tier 2, on the 2nd week without any losses.
Plus, the "canned food" quest isn't attacked blindly; you can find out a lot by reading about the guard.
Often, it's clear whether it's worth attacking or not.
One morale and that's it, because there are no artifacts for defense or attack on this part of the map.
Only if you have a full stack, and even then, not always.
In fact, on this map, it's impossible to break through to any Castle on the 2nd week. I got carried away. I meant the 3rd week.
I, on the other hand, broke through on the 2nd week (in fact, I also broke through with the Swamp on the 5th day, and I could have done it on the 4th, but that's another story), but the situation was very favorable. And the main problem is the valuable resources needed to upgrade the vampires. And on the 3rd week, the Necropolis definitely takes any "canned food" quest and breaks through the archers without losses, so he needs to be banned.
I wouldn't dare to attack a Tier 3 "canned food" quest on the grass on this map, even on the third week - it's better to try to break through the archers. Morale is a bad thing, because this is online, and it can cost you the game.
With 20 vampires on the 3rd week, only PERMANENT morale can defeat the Necropolis
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Offline invisible
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#29
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Did you read carefully? 11 vampires is a Stronghold and +1 from the spawning point.
Sorry, I miscalculated.
And for the "canned food" strategy, you need different spells, although you can also get slow.
This was not about the "canned food" strategy, but about
And the hero might also have speed, so the lords will reach their destination.
Besides the tournament on this map, I played once, and it was with the Necropolis. I had 11 lords by week 2 and took a regular "canned food" stack on week 2 without any losses.
As far as I know, you played this map offline. Taking the "canned food" stack online and offline are completely different things.
Plus, the "canned food" stack is not attacked blindly; you can learn a lot by reading about the defense. Often, it's clear whether it's worth attacking or not.
You can't distinguish a level 2 stack from a level 3 "canned food" stack if there is no upgraded stack.
Only if it's a full stack, and even then, not always.
And if there is morale, you can't win, because this is not an official game. :)
(I also managed to break through with the Swamp faction on day 5, but it could have been on day 4, but that's another story)
We are playing without diplomacy.
With 20 vampires on week 3, only PERMANENT morale can destroy the Necropolis.
I agree with that, but it's better not to attack a level 3 stack with 20 vampires, unless you have a shield with advanced earth magic. You can try on week 4, but you will be completely at the mercy of fate. :)
We got sidetracked. Everything is clear with the Necropolis, but what about other castles, for example, the Castle? I was lucky that a secondary hero was given tactics, which I upgraded to advanced and took with the loss of only a few griffins. But what if not? :) If I knew which map I would be playing, I would have taken Turis, but now it's unclear. I want to remind you that this is an online tournament, and you need to take into account morale, etc.
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Offline Fireball
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#30
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As far as I know, you played this map offline. But taking the Conservatory online and offline are completely different things.
With a computer, but without saves, to distract from the tournament, but there was definitely an easy way to win.
You can't tell the difference between a level 2 and level 3 Conservatory if there isn't an improved stack.
You can take a level 1 or level 2. With an improved stack, they are clearly visible, but without it, only a level 1 is visible. The chance of identifying them correctly is 65%, which isn't that bad. And in the remaining 35%, it's really better to wait a week.
and if there is morale, you won't be able to replay, because it's not official.
and if there is morale, you won't be able to replay, because it's not official.
And that's right!
topics. With Necropolis, everything is clear, but what about other Castles, for example, the Castle?
Castle... 60 wood to get to the Centaurs is very sad. I would take the Dungeon and the Stronghold: a bunch of Trolls that can also be blessed, Harpy-Witches, archers without a penalty in melee, and tactics. And the sand, which is so necessary, is poorly guarded there. But that's just by the way, and in general, I'm used to the official game. And there, whatever they give you, that's what you get.
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