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In reply to =Lizard=
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#33
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=Lizard=
I also disagree with Merlin's (and some other people's) position that Hota is just another game, like VT, but it's closer to the truth.
But what does truth have to do with it when we're talking about subjective perception? Or is the truth that someone disagrees with someone else? The truth is that Hota is a game built on someone else's engine (greetings to the copyright holders). And some people like it, and some don't. And it's not the same game. It's a version of the game. I repeat, many of the decisions are brilliant, such as the "unlocked" roads and the working negative luck. But adding some random things to the map, redrawing Vey, orcs, spearmen, changing the normal green color of the battlefield to some "poisonous emerald"... Introducing dozens of new objects... Too many things personally bother me. If you don't like it, don't play it. That's the whole truth.
=Lizard=
If you don't like the examples from music, I've given examples from sports many times. Football in its "original" form was without offsides. Basketball was without a 3-second zone. And so on. Does that also mean they are variations on a theme? "Different games"?
Yes, variations on a theme. Because we're not talking about changing the rules of football. But about two different types of football, if you will. European and American. Or an even more accurate sports metaphor. Russian billiards and snooker. (Someone named Vigo is getting excited somewhere...)
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#34
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kamukag3e
Question to all players: Why do all true SoD players not play HotA at all, while true HotA players (or whatever you call yourselves) play with SoD?
Because I can :)
Well, if I were to be a bit more detailed, considering "no-rules battles," the nerfed HotA Necromancer and everything related in any way to necromancy, + different flight/DD mechanics (flight is fixed, but only partially) + changes in city build-ups + absence of SoD bugs (generation of shifted artifact guards/passages :smile04: yes, yes, it's impossible without that, because if there is anarchy, then it's total anarchy :) ) + .. actually, many more things could be listed, including even the design; in short, everything mentioned above removes any thoughts of anarchy (or any other no-rules template) on HotA.
Now, as for other templates.
Personally, sometimes I really crave romance — AoTD+KS). And the desire to spend a long, tedious time playing Necromancer like a pro also arises. In those cases, it's time to try some Excel-sheet style play.
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In reply to Benis_xDD
#35
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Benis_xDD
It's precisely all these bans on red rushing, Grail restrictions, upgrade bans, the prohibition of bypassing guards, visiting objects without breaking through defenses, plus all the resulting chaos and awkward situations... that aesthetically really bother me.
Rules are necessary, and as far as I know, there are also rules in Heroes. Red rushing has been banned for about six months now, and the other restrictions are precisely for balance and are necessary. And these restrictions didn't appear overnight.
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to MerlinTheMagician
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#36
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MerlinTheMagician

If you don't like it, don't play it. That's the whole truth.
I completely agree with this. These are golden words.
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In reply to kamukag3e
#37
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kamukag3e
A question for all players: Why don't all hardcore HotA players play Shades of Darkness at all, while hardcore SoD players (or whatever you call yourselves) play with SoD?
Nodl
That's a strange question. I'm a "hardcore HotA player" and I don't play SoD at all. I just don't like many of the things that are present in SoD, but have been fixed or reworked in HotA.
kamikaze, you can see that this is the most accurate answer to your question, and the question itself contained an error in perception. The only difficulty here will be believing that hardcore HotA players actually exist. Moreover, it's possible that they are not the people you thought were hardcore HotA players.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
In reply to kamukag3e
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#38
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kamukag3e
Rules are necessary, and as far as I know, there are also rules in HoMM.

In HoMM, there are still rules, for now. And there are very few of them left.
kamukag3e
Red rush was canceled about six months ago, and the remaining restrictions are precisely for balance and are necessary. And these restrictions did not appear overnight.

It's great that Red Rush was canceled; so many frustrating situations and stupid defeats happened because of it!
But there was never any talk about rules being unnecessary. I'm talking about the fact that the way they are implemented causes me to reject them. And I think not only me.
Recently, Sector and Toganash had a very unpleasant situation in the Mirrors. Or remember our game on the Small Map, where I flew over the Guard Tower with wings, and we spent 20 minutes trying to find a rule that would allow or prohibit such actions. And, by the way, we didn't find anything definitive. I choose not to play HoMM with such rules!
Some people don't play HoMM because they don't like the new graphics, but I don't like the unwritten rules and blatant workarounds.
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wygrał? wygrał. -Szopa666
In reply to kamukag3e
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#39
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kamukag3e
Rules are needed, and in Heroes, as far as I know.
So, in Heroes, everything is implemented correctly from a programming perspective. Let's skip the mechanics of using air control, as mentioned earlier. The algorithm should control the capture of an object only after the guards have been defeated and allow for fair manipulation of the object (simply: not taking resources lying on the path, but immediately "flying" to the object). The principle is that everything that is not prohibited is allowed (and what is prohibited is prohibited programmatically; I apologize for the tautology) – this is crucial in this matter.
kamukag3e
The other restrictions are precisely for balance and are necessary.
But in SoD, complete chaos reigns. Sometimes I read about controversial situations in the forums, and it makes me uneasy, not because someone is cheating outrageously, but because of the thought that in such situations, where people have no desire to engage in unfair manipulation, mutual distrust can simply destroy friendships.
It's all very sad. Although, of course, this can happen in Heroes as well, simply due to the possibility of stream sniping or using third-party programs. And if you can get rid of the first, no one is currently immune to cheating. I hope that one day we will be able to observe Heroes games that are isolated from this problem.
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#40
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puzzo, you have mutually exclusive paragraphs. What you described – "and this can happen" – streamsniping and cheating are two extreme forms of unsportsmanlike conduct that preclude any possibility of friendship from the outset.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
In reply to Nodl
#41
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Al Feyn
kamikaze, don't you see that this is the most accurate answer to your question, and the question itself contained an error in perception?
The only difficulty here will be believing that true "Hoto" players actually exist. Moreover, it's possible that these are not the people you thought were true "Hoto" players.
Excellent question, if you don't like it, formulate your own on the topic.
The only acceptable answer from a true "Hoto" player was:
Nodl
I am a true "Hoto" player and I don't play "SoD" at all.
Perhaps the rest of the true "Hoto" players don't exist at all, as people who play both "SoD" and "Hoto" cannot consider themselves to be either.
Merlin's position is the most understandable; he clearly explained why he doesn't play "Hoto".
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to Grando
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#42
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Al Feyn
Puzzo, you have mutually exclusive paragraphs.
What you described as "something that can happen" – stream sniping and cheating – are two forms of extreme unsportsmanlike conduct that already preclude friendship.
There are definitely no contradictions in my words.

You didn't analyze what I wrote above very well.

The point is this:

"Friendship a priori does not imply unfair play" – that's clear as day. However, as you know just as well as I do, theory doesn't always match practice, and there are exceptions.
So, I hope you understand that there are far more ways to cheat in Sod than in HotA, where there are only two.
(Let me explain further)
Despite this, in HotA, I am well aware of cases where I suspect unfair play from my opponent. The most important thing is that there were moments when I saw how one of the players was playing, and I understood that they were playing in a way that was too illogical, and I thought, "What kind of luck would it take for something like this to happen?" but I knew that they were playing fairly.
But in Sod, something absurd can happen on every turn, and often it doesn't depend on the players, by the way, Benis gave good examples.
I hope it's clear to you now.
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#43
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No. It's not clear. The point is what?
You wrote there about the difficulty of SoD rules, that in SoD there is "complete chaos," and that reading some situations in HotA makes you uneasy – in such a situation, players may lose their friendship.
Then you wrote that this can also happen in HotA. And you gave two examples.
1) What exactly "can happen" in HotA? I assumed it was obvious that people might lose their friendship by getting into some kind of situation.
2) But the two examples you provided suggest that there was no friendship to begin with. You cannot lose something that never existed.
Therefore, the conclusion is that "this" cannot happen in HotA, or you gave bad examples.

Above, I only pointed out the logical inconsistency; for example, I don’t think there is complete chaos in SoD.

As for friendship, it is generally a complex thing that everyone understands differently;
in my opinion, the person himself is primary here, and not SoD, HotA, or "friendship"; an honest person will play honestly in both SoD and HotA, while a deceitful person will look for a chance to cheat in both,
I quite allow that there exists someone who will even cheat against a "friend," maybe just a little bit; well, if it's minor, then okay, once, and I won't do it again
There are many possible scenarios here; what kind of person, such is the "friendship"; people are ingenious at self-justification;
Any rigid worldview settled in the mind of any particular person protects itself and defends itself from anything that contradicts it, and devalues or simply refuses to understand facts that contradict it
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
#44
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Alfein, don't change the subject; less philosophy, more specifics. We are discussing SoD and HotA, not friendship and cheating.
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to Grando
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#45
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Al Feyn
no. it's not clear. here is the>
You wrote there about the complexity of SoD rules, which are so complex that reading some situations in the AK makes one feel uneasy—in such a situation, players could lose their friendship.
Then you wrote that this can also happen in HotA. And you gave two examples.
1) What exactly is "this" that is possible in HotA? I considered it obvious that—yes, it's possible for people to lose their friendship by ending up in a certain situation.
2) But the two examples you provided suggest that there was no friendship to begin with. It is impossible to lose something that wasn't there anyway.
Hence the conclusion—"this" cannot happen in HotA.Oh, come on.

I'll say it again: friendship in theory and friendship in practice do not necessarily coincide.

"But the two examples you provided suggest that there was no friendship to begin with"—really? If I say there was a friendship, then there was; if you aren't aware of examples of this bond disappearing between two people—then you are the lucky one. Otherwise, judging by what you wrote, it seems you're trying to get details about that friendship from me, or rather "proof," and that is just ridiculous—I will not disclose such personal information without the permission of both players. This is the answer to the 2nd point. You should definitely understand this)

As for the SoD rules—that's easy, right? Again. Rules. They aren't just complex; they can be absurd and multifaceted, and so to speak, not everyone is ready to solve an equation on their turn, especially considering the fact that sometimes the solution has two roots, or even more)
And
(combining this with the answer to the first point)
there are situations where, regardless of how well people feel about each other, their opinions regarding a developed situation, their understanding and, essentially, the application of rules to a specific situation differ, and there is no ambiguity here. What does HotA have to do with this? The fact that in both SoD and HotA, misunderstanding of one player's game actions by another can arise.
Again, in HotA this will be possible after analyzing the match, but in SoD, because of the rules, it can happen right during the game. That is, to determine whether one can play "this way" here or not, a person might spend a very significant amount of time, and in the end, their analysis of this game situation will differ from the opponent's.
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#46
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Kamikaze, at least first figure out what the topic is here before pointing others toward it.
If you yourself notice nothing but SoD vs HotA - that doesn't mean there is nothing else besides this line of discussion (the last two lines).
Puzzz0
"But the two examples you provided suggest that no friendship existed anymore" — really? If I say there was a friendship, then there was; if you are unaware of examples where this bond between two people disappeared — then you're the lucky one..
One question - are you aware of a specific situation
1) in HotA 2) when a friendship between two players disappeared 3) as a result of one of them stream sniping or launching some program that gives an advantage and 4) are you absolutely sure that at the moment point 3 happened, this friendship existed on both sides
Is this exactly what you mean? (obviously, no need to tell the details of the situation, I just want a definitive Yes/No clarification)
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
#47
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Oh, sorry if I wrote something incorrectly. I just thought that discussing SOD and HotA is much more interesting than reading your elaborate philosophical essays.
艰难获胜 herolwy