On-line rating (discussion) — Tournament Committee

SS-D

18 years ago

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I suggest creating a Player Rating for those who play online via HAMACHI
What is the optimal way to do this and is there any point

Added after 22 hours 0 minutes
Feel free to leave your thoughts on this topic and suggestions

DEAR LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, PLEASE, TO SAVE TIME IN CREATING THE RATING, LEAVE YOUR DATA FOR THE RATING (ICQ) IF YOU WANT TO SEE YOURSELF THERE

ADDED ON 09.11.2007.

Score calculation formula (demo version) in case of victory.
1. Formula for calculation if the opponent has a higher rating (rank)
_________________________________________________________________________________1/8
S=(10+2*log(Pplayer-Popp)-(N1-1)/3+N2/3)/ (N1) *5

2. Formula for calculation if the opponent has a lower rating (rank)
_________________________________________________________________________________1/8
S=(10-2*log(Popp-Pplayer)-(N1-1)/3+N2/3)/ (N1) *5

In case of defeat, I think... :smile34:
(for activity, and as an incentive)

Explanation of the letters:

S - points for victory
Pplayer - your player rating from the table
Popp- opponent's rating from the table
N1- number of victories over this opponent
N2- number of losses to this opponent

I explain the terms and all that:

10+starting from 10 points, then everything is multiplied by 5, so for the first game you get 50 points for a win, multiplied by 10 to get rid of tenths in other terms.
-2*log(Pplayer-Popp) - this is a penalty (negative) if you play against a lower-rated player, fewer points will be awarded for a win, the lower the opponent, the larger this expression becomes.
+2*log(Popp-Pplayer)-this is a bonus if you play against a higher-rated player than you, correspondingly, the higher the opponent, the more points are added.
-(N1-1)/3-the more wins you have against this opponent, the fewer points will be added with each subsequent victory, "-1" so the first victory is not counted.
+N2/3-the more losses, the more points for a victory.
/ (N1)6th root - to increase the tendency of points decreasing for each subsequent victory (to the 6th power so it wouldn't be too strong)
this term needs consideration whether it's needed

It's visible that when N1=20 points can smoothly go into negative :smile48: )))
Therefore, I think the limit on victories against one opponent should be 20

Well, or we need to think it over more.
Of course, if the spread is normal, then 20 won't come that quickly, but if it does (for more than half), then this number can be reset to zero or an additional coefficient can be introduced (we'll see).

SAY WHAT YOU DON'T LIKE

Example table

Arranging games

Table
Rank	Player nickname	ICQ	HoMM3 version	Wins	Losses	% wins	Points
1	NICK			58	145
2
3
4
5
6

SS-D

18 years ago

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Purpose of the rating - a rating of players in Heroes of Might and Magic who play not in tournaments, but among themselves every day.
Meaning - to know the current rating of a player in Heroes of Might and Magic online on a given day.
Why - 1. to know who you are playing against
2. to choose a player of a similar level to play with
3. to try to beat a player who is higher in the ranking
4. to have the desire to climb higher in the ranking
5. it will be useful in an official tournament - to know the player (his strength), which will eliminate possible underestimation and, as a result, a stupid loss.

SS-D

18 years ago

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On this page, you can leave your contact information to be included in the ranking list (NICK + the network where you play HAM + ICQ).

This will be a lengthy process, but I think everyone will want to see themselves at the top.
The ranking will be in the form of a football table + win percentage.
As an addition, there will be a list of each player's victories over strong opponents (achievement).
The calculation of points will be complex.
POINTS will depend on who you play, of course, and how often + games with the same opponents will be valued less and less each time (this probably won't apply to strong opponents, we'll see).

I don't see any suggestions, so I'll have to make decisions on my own.
and accordingly, unforeseen issues will have to be addressed during the process, not beforehand.

In reply to SS-D

Ley

18 years ago

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SS-D;124133

Purpose: 1. To know what kind of player you're up against.
2. To choose a player of a similar level to play against.
3. To try and defeat a player who is higher ranked.
4. To increase the excitement and climb higher in the rankings.
5. It will be useful in official tournaments – to know the player (their strength), which will prevent possible underestimation and, as a result, a foolish loss.

1. - "What kind of player?" :D And what are the rewards under the avatar for?
Besides, players who have participated in at least 2 games already have a more or less good idea of what each other is capable of...
2. - It's not difficult to see the level of play from the games that have already been played, i.e., if a person wants to play with someone of equal skill, it's already known, and agreeing on games should be done via private message.
3. - What about participating in online tournaments? - Sooner or later, you will meet a stronger opponent ;)
4. - What is "excitement"? Maybe you're talking about intrigue?
5. - And here's how you put it: "players," online and offline, cannot be compared in any way – these are completely different things, IMHO.

Sincerely.

In reply to Ley

invisible

18 years ago

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Besides, players who have participated in at least two games already have a more or less clear idea of what each player is capable of...

Two games is not enough.

And the way you put it: "comparing online and offline players" is simply impossible – they are completely different things, IMHO.

What does one have to do with the other? Read the first post carefully:

I suggest creating a Player Rating for players who play online via Hamachi.

Personally, I see the point of such a rating in that, firstly, it provides excitement. That is, you won't have to wait for the next tournament to satisfy your competitive interest. You just play, and all games will be counted. Something similar exists on many resources.
It's better to play thirty games and take third place in the rating than to get a medal under your avatar once a season or a year and walk around with your head held high. More games, more experience, a higher level of play. And the rating will be a kind of incentive. And there will be no need for some to beat their chest and say that they are super-duper players and will beat everyone, and are even afraid to play against anyone because they are afraid for their opponent :), while not having played a single game. You look at the rating and immediately see (at least approximately) what each player is worth.
SS-D, don't ask, just do it, and there will always be those who want to participate. But before you start, think about it, because it's not easy to do. But if you are sure that you can handle such an event, then it is worth trying. If you are serious about doing this and maintaining the rating yourself, then go ahead. If after some time you get tired of it and stop doing it, then it is better not to start. In any case, first, browse the forums and read how it is done and what is needed for it. Because creating something like this is many times more difficult than running a full-fledged online tournament. Because you need to constantly monitor the rating, resolve all sorts of controversial issues, calculate it, and much more.
And also, there is no need to put this to a vote. There will be nothing but spam here. If you want, write to me in a private message, and I will give you a couple of links to a couple of resources that have something similar. And you can decide for yourself whether it is worth starting to do this or not

In reply to invisible

Alex_R

18 years ago

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invisible;124511

It's better to play thirty games and take third place in the ranking than to get a medal under your avatar once a season or a year and walk around with your head held high. More games, more experience, a higher level of play. And the ranking will, in a way, be a stimulus. And some won't have to beat their chests and say that they are a super-duper player and will tear everyone apart, and are even afraid to play against anyone because they are worried about their opponent :), while not having played a single game ;). You can look at the ranking and immediately see (at least approximately) what a player is worth.

1. I disagree with this, to put it mildly... in such matters, you should write "It's better for me..." otherwise, it turns out that you are speaking for everyone...
2. I understood the hint, even though I don't beat my chest and shout that I am a super-duper player and will tear everyone apart, but I walk around with my head held high, but you messed up... because we only had one online tournament for Heroes 3, and I am currently the only one who fits the characteristics you listed:

invisible;124511

a medal under your avatar once a season or a year

In reply to Alex_R

invisible

18 years ago

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I disagree with that, to put it mildly... in such matters, you should write "Better for me..." otherwise, it turns out that you are speaking for everyone...

Of course, I wrote my own opinion. But if you take into account the fact that on one portal alone, more than seventy people play Heroes for ranking, then it turns out that "Better not only for me..." ;)

I understood the hint, even though I don't beat my chest and shout that I'm a super-duper player and will beat everyone.

You didn't understand the hint, because I wrote:

beating my chest with my fist and saying that I'm a super-duper player and will beat everyone, and I'm even afraid to play with anyone, because I'm afraid for the opponent, while not having played a single game (I forgot to add - on this resource).

I meant another player ;).
And about the awards under the avatar, I wrote based on Ley's statement:

What are the awards under the avatar for?

And I didn't even think about writing anything about you. Why do you always see negativity towards you in my words?
I will delete this post tomorrow!

SS-D

18 years ago

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Thanks, guys, for your feedback.
INVISIBLE, I see that you see everything and understood me.
I won't refuse help with links; if you can, write them here for this purpose, as it makes it easier for me to discuss.
The task is complex, I agree, but I think I'll automate it later (I'll figure out how), the main thing is to start.

As for you, LI, you are also right in some ways, but still:
not all good players have awards (for various reasons).
You haven't played with everyone, so it's not easy to say with whom it will be more interesting to play. Yes, you've played with some once or twice, and you know them, but others... and so on.

I think there are definitely advantages to having a ranking system.
But the disadvantages need to be worked on.

Added after 18 minutes
I'm CASTING a LINE, let's think.

The ranking depends on (points):
1. The number of games (obvious).
2. The opponent you play against (strong, weak, the same).
3. Activity (more is good, and points are also awarded for losses).
4. Agreement or refusal in battles.
5. ... (we're thinking).

TRUTH IS BORN IN DISPUTE...)))))

In reply to SS-D

Alex_R

18 years ago

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SS-D;124555

Added 18 minutes later
[/U]I'M CASTINGMY LINEthink about it

Rating depends on (points):
1. Number of games (obvious)
2. Opponent (strong, weak, same opponent)
3. Activity (more is better, and points are awarded for losses)
4. Acceptance or refusal of battles
5. ... (thinking)

As for casting the line, take the system from Heroes of Might and Magic and change what you don't like... or discuss this issue with players from Heroes of Might and Magic (Vigo and vitalic) – they definitely know this system and will surely give you some advice if they can't help.

SS-D

18 years ago

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I'm looking at it, and something doesn't seem right.

In reply to SS-D

Alex_R

18 years ago

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SS-D;124593

I'm looking at it and something doesn't seem right.

So, you can't figure out what you don't like, or what?
P.S. It's easier to invent a bicycle if you don't have a blueprint ;)

In reply to SS-D

Ley

18 years ago

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SS-D;124555

Thanks, guys, for your feedback.

No problem... We'll share our thoughts, and it's too early to call this idea, which was put up for discussion with the aim of improvement, just "fluff"...

SS-D;124555

The task is complex, I agree, but I think I'll automate it later (I'll figure out how), the main thing is to start.

Regarding the comparison of rating calculations, check out the topic: "rating of ONLINE tournaments". If necessary, I can send you something to your inbox - you can take a look and see if you like it or not...

SS-D;124555

As for you, LI, you are also right in some ways, but still
not all good players have awards (for various reasons).

(if you've started writing, then write "Lei") Undoubtedly. But it is also undeniable that those who have them have good knowledge and an approach to the game itself. ;)

SS-D;124555

[U]I'M THROWINGA LINEthink about it

Rating depends on (points):
1 Number of games (obvious)
2 Who you play against (strong, weak, the same)
3 For activity (a lot is good, and points are also awarded for losses)
4 Agreement or refusal in battles
5 ...... (we are thinking)

Why not combine a couple of points? :) But personally, I'm against rating for activity; everyone gets busy sometimes...

In reply to SS-D

invisible

18 years ago

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SS-D;124593

I'm looking at it, and something doesn't quite sit right.

:D I knew you'd say something like that=)))
Actually, doing something like this is very difficult, especially alone. It takes a lot of time for all of it. That's why I asked at the beginning: are you ready for this, and can you handle it?
You can discard and change some things from what you're reading, that is, simplify it. But if you simplify it too much, there may be disputes and misunderstandings in the future regarding a particular point. Therefore, if you're going to do it, you need to do it seriously. If not, it's better not to start. IMHO.

In reply to invisible

Ley

18 years ago

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invisible;124511

2 games is not enough.

Well, I meant that even if you lose after 2 games, you will still see those who made it further, the stronger players.

invisible;124511

It's better to play thirty games and take third place in the ranking than to get a medal under your avatar once a season or a year and walk around with your head held high.

Are you saying that absolutely anyone can get such a medal? Could it be awarded randomly? In my opinion, this doesn't show the level of skill.

invisible;124511

The ranking will be a kind of incentive. And there will be no need for some to beat their chest and say that they are a super-duper player and will beat everyone, and are even afraid to play with anyone because they are afraid for their opponent :), while not having played a single game ;). You look at the ranking and immediately see (at least approximately) what a player is capable of.

You are talking about newcomers..., i.e., they will, in any case, shout similar phrases - the ranking shows that a player is strong, but to see that he is stronger than a newcomer, you need them to play together, right? Otherwise, you can't prove anything.

invisible;124511

SS-D, don't ask, just do it, and there will always be those who want to. But before you start, think about it, because doing this is far from simple, but if you are sure that you can handle such an event, then it is worth a try.

I definitely agree with that. Good luck!

invisible;124511

Because doing something like this is many times more difficult than running a full-fledged online tournament. Because you need to constantly monitor the ranking, resolve all sorts of controversial issues, calculate it, and much more.

Organization has its own complex aspects and nuances, it's also a laborious process ;) and I don't even know if they can be compared...?

In reply to Ley

invisible

18 years ago

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Well, I meant that even if you get eliminated after two games, you'll still see the players who advanced, the stronger players.

Sorry, I'm not thinking clearly right now – I barely slept last night (damn heroes :D), so I misunderstood. I meant that two games aren't enough to understand a player's true skill level. You'll get a general idea of their skill, but it will only be approximate.

Are you saying that absolutely anyone can get such a medal? Could it be awarded randomly? Doesn't that indicate skill level?

I got a little carried away here, or rather, I didn't express myself accurately. Undoubtedly, getting a medal is difficult, and not everyone can do it. Tournaments vary, as does the way the winner is determined. In some cases, it might just be a bit of luck, or the opposite. But if you take, for example, a rating for a season, and a player who has played, say, 50 games in a season, winning 45 of them and taking third place in the rating. IMHO, the second example more accurately reflects the player's skill level. Because in tournaments, there are many technical wins/losses that don't reflect the strength of a particular player. Here's a clear example from a seasonal tournament: a player with the nickname Amstr will take last (or second to last) place in the tournament. And few people will pay attention to the fact that he only played one game, and the rest were technical losses. Nevertheless, in the rating on the portal, he is in third place out of 71 based on real games, because there are no technical wins/losses in the rating. So, which shows the player's true strength: real online matches or technical losses?

You're talking about beginners..., i.e., they will more or less say similar things – the rating shows that the player is strong, but to see that he is stronger than a beginner, you need them to play together, right?

Of course, and not just one game!