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Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.

Tournament Committee
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In reply to Sanin
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Offline Vatya
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#1514
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Sanin
Regarding the awarding of the victory, it's an obvious manipulation, as far as I know. Based on the current game situation, the victory will most likely be awarded to the Dark faction. I want to cite a recent example of a victory being awarded: a game in OFB against Jaris, in which I was losing strategically and had no desire to continue playing. However, the organizer told me that the beginning of the second month was too early for awarding the victory, and he scheduled an odd game twice, only agreeing to award the victory on turn 247. Why would they force players to play until the third month in one tournament, and award the victory at the end of the first month in another?
The reason is that in your example, there was still time to finish the game, which is why your request for an awarded victory was denied. However, here, all deadlines have already been missed, so for me personally (as an interested party), the most optimal outcome would be either finishing the game today or awarding the victory, or a coin toss if no winner can be determined by awarding the victory. We will analyze the game after it's finished. There is no question of replaying the game.
Ася 390383586

Осень-Зима 2013-14.
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In reply to Dark30
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#1515
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Dark30
I request that the Arbitration Committee (AK) respond, whether this precedent will be considered or not, regardless of the fact that 2 people claim they saw the pinging player after the disconnection, while the opponent claims that there was no internet connection during the entire time.

I request a clear answer regarding whether the game can continue or not.
Okay, if you insist, we can consider this issue in the AK. I will say right away that it will take some time. However, I don't understand the requirements. The judge made a decision to continue the game, and you disagree. Okay. So, what do you want? To continue from a save before the battle? There isn't one, and there is no obligation for the player to provide one at this time. A technical loss? On what basis? An award? Again, why, if there is enough time to finish the game? If the time has run out, then why should the game be awarded in the AK when there are judges? State your requirements, and then it will be considered.
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Offline Wicc
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#1516
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Dirty_Player
Okay, if you insist, we can consider this issue in the Arbitration Committee (AK). I'll say right away that it will take some time. But I don't understand the requirements. The judge ruled to continue the game, and you disagree. Okay. So, what do you want? To continue from a save before the battle? There isn't one, and at the moment, the player has no obligation to provide one. A technical loss? On what basis? An award? Again, why suddenly, if there's time to finish the game? If the time is up, then why should the game be awarded in the AK when there are judges? State your requirements, and then it will be considered.
Am I the only one who thinks Dirty initially has a biased view of this situation?
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#1517
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I am personally interested in the ping issue. Without understanding the issue from a neutral expert, it is difficult to form an opinion, especially when there is such a suspicion of unfair play from the wowa team.


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Offline Pridu
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Posts: 567
#1518
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The easiest way to check if there was a connection interruption during a game with Hamachi is to keep the Hamachi chat window open. It always clearly shows when a disconnect occurs, along with the time. Even micro-interruptions, with a connection loss of 5 seconds, are visible there.

As for awarding and those losses, in my humble opinion, you started the uproar too early. You should have given people a chance to switch and gather evidence, as in the case with Tungus.
P.S. Playing Heroes is, above all, based on the principle of fair play. Learn to trust people, but don't forget to verify.
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In reply to Wicc
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#1519
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Wicc
Did anyone else think that Dirty initially had a biased perception of this situation?
When in doubt, cross yourself. :smile16:
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Offline Wicc
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#1520
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Dirty_Player
When in doubt, you should make the sign of the cross. :smile16:
I'm okay, but the main thing is that others don't get the wrong idea ;)
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In reply to Wicc
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Offline Roger-ua
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#1521
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Essentially, neither saves nor crashes are regulated on the website. Perhaps the administrators or organizers should consider putting this up for discussion and, after a vote, establishing a certain procedure, at least for saves. Perhaps tournament matches could be played with a save before each battle (honestly, I don't even know where to find that checkbox). For this game, it's clear that no technical loss will be awarded based on these arguments, so a decision needs to be made either by the tournament judges (Amster, Bishop, Dirty) or by the administrators, either to award the win or to have the game replayed. In the case of a replay, the opponents should formulate certain requirements for the accuracy of repeating the move. In this case, the decision of the judges or the tournament judge should be announced, as Sanin is an interested party. Dirty is one of the tournament judges, and perhaps the phrase "the judge made the decision to continue" should be read as "I, Dirty, as a tournament judge, made the decision to continue." If this is not the case, then it sounds strange, and it should be specified which of the judges made the decision, perhaps the decision of the triumvirate of tournament judges is needed.
Весна 2013.
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Offline Wicc
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#1522
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First, you need to carefully analyze the save file to understand two things: 1) Is there a clear victory for one of the sides, regardless of the other side's actions (within reasonable limits)? If so, there's no need to complicate things; you can simply award the victory. 2) Is there potential for what Derbent is suspected of? In other words, does the optimal move differ when knowing about the cloak/amulet and when not knowing? If it doesn't differ, then again, there's no need to complicate things; you can suggest continuing from the last save. And only if the previous two points are not sufficient to resolve the conflict can you start thinking about other solutions.
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Offline Derbent
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#1523
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I have the impression that this particular tactic was indeed a trump card in my opponents' hands. The fact is that I often have a very unstable internet connection, and in about one out of three games, there are bound to be problems, and my opponents can confirm this, as I don't really have any close friends on Heroes of Might and Magic. In the previous game, things weren't smooth either; at a certain point, I suddenly experienced glitches for about half an hour, and I was close to a technical loss, even though I had a significant advantage. And Dark was stalling the game, both that time and this time, clearly counting on some kind of mishap, as I now think. (I have proof, by the way.)
And now I'm having connection problems again; it's the perfect time. Let him first tell us what happened that day, on Sunday, and then let's speculate about the green ham when the internet was down. Not only are they accusing me of cheating, but also of being stupid.
Yes, I don't understand programming, connections, networks, routers, and all that, but if I were a liar, I would have enough brains to turn off the Wi-Fi, claiming that the kids were messing around. (This is how our Western Heroes of Might and Magic players like to make things up.)
P.S. And saves before a battle are not as reliable as my GM1 save system after a crash, because you can lose a game, crash, and continue the game before taking the castle.
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Offline wowa
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#1524
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For now, Vik has the most reasonable and correct arguments.
We wanted something like this from AK – namely, confidence that replaying a turn won't fundamentally harm the game (although the issue of the amount of gold before the second final battle remains unresolved).
From the beginning, we were counting on continuing the game in one form or another; there was no talk of exploiting tech advantages.
And if it weren't for the whole bouquet of "oddities," plus the opponent's rather aggressive stance, we wouldn't have even brought it up publicly.
Dear opponent, understand that with frequent disconnects, it's simply the right thing to have an autosave before a battle, and it's very strange when someone complains about a bad internet connection but refuses to enable this feature, even though they know about it.
Because if you're fighting an opponent – whether it's a human or the final boss – and you disconnect, you reload from that point, which saves time.
But when you're fighting mobs, of course, in case of a disconnect, you save after the battle in .gm1, reconnect, and continue playing, and this is not some "system," but a normal practice.
And no one here wrote about intentional disconnects, right?
We won't dwell on the long silence with the internet connection enabled (in our subjective view) any further; it's in the past, let everyone draw their own conclusions
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
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Offline Derbent
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#1525
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Now, please read Dark's and my initial messages. He categorically refuses to continue the game because there is no save before the battle, demanding at least a judgment. I was the first to write, asking the judges to thoroughly analyze my move to dispel your quite reasonable doubts. And how should I react when I am accused of cheating out of nowhere? I responded to you quite calmly.
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In reply to Derbent
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Offline wowa
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#1526
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Derbent
now, read the first messages from Dark and mine. He categorically refuses to continue the game because there is no save before the battle, demanding at least a judgment. And this is after I initially wrote that the judges should thoroughly analyze my move to dispel your quite reasonable doubts.
And how should I react when I am accused of cheating out of nowhere? I responded to you quite calmly.
of course, I was calm in public.
I wish the same in private correspondence.
and not only with Dark.
Dark30
....in light of the above, I believe it is wrong to allow a replay of the entire move, the identity of which cannot be verified. Therefore, I am appealing to you.
In case the situation cannot be resolved, I am ready for a judgment.
a judgment, not just as a minimum, but as a last resort.
and not a tech loss as a last resort, but specifically a judgment.
and I wasn't accused of cheating (because no objective arguments were gathered for this), but there was a quite reasonable fear that you might take advantage of the situation along with the information you received; the temptation to do so, unfortunately, is too great.
but still, it seems that I have found a way to relieve the burden on the AK, which it is not very eager to take on. It's strange that none of the AK members looked in that direction.
(the requirement to have an autosave before battles, in addition to daily saves, I hope, will not be too difficult to implement))
so:
after that disconnection, Dark did not save the game in single-player mode, but a new day started for him, so there should be an autosave of the new day.
if necessary, after the end of the game and the exchange of passwords, it will be possible to calculate how much money and resources each player had at the time of the 2nd final, compare it with the amount of money that will be in the replay, and draw some conclusions.
I am just letting you know about this so that the situation does not drag on, because the deadlines for the round have already been extended several times.

P.S.: experiments with disconnections are at least bringing some benefit :D
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
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Offline Derbent
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#1527
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I don't even hide the fact that I have an antipathy towards Dungeon. He's probably a wonderful person in real life, a good friend, a caring family man, but as a player, he's a jerk to me. But that's getting off-topic...
The quoted excerpt doesn't give any information; read the entire message, don't distort it.
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Offline wowa
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#1528
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Derbent
I don't even hide the fact that I have an antipathy towards Dark. He's probably a wonderful person in real life, a good friend, a caring family man, but as a player, he's a jerk to me. But that's going off-topic...
The quoted excerpt doesn't give any information; read the entire message, don't distort it.
Yes, don't distort it.
The previous part of the message provides justifications for why Dark didn't want to allow a replay of the entire turn.
That's all.
The quote was about what he would expect from AK as an alternative.
And "at a minimum" and "in the worst case" are still diametrically opposed concepts.
But let's not argue; we need to find a practical way to resolve the situation.
No one was demanding any technical solutions; we need to play, so we need to, as Dark's teammate, I am also interested in this.
And Bishop's team is already waiting – there's no need to give the lower bracket a time advantage over the upper bracket.
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
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