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Posts from UNIT - Creature Balance + Visual Changes
Guys, before making such changes, equalizing unit tiers and alternate units, you need to make sure that the overall faction balance doesn't get worse.
Sylvan: Elven Archers are already not the strongest faction, and you want to nerf what they rely on (along with Ents). Don't do that. If you equalize unit tiers, then rather buff the Masters, or, if you even want to nerf, then buff Unicorns or someone else.
Necropolis: You can buff higher Vampires, and it's also reasonable to nerf Princes. Reduce the cost of Necrodrakes? What is the goal of this change? Does Necropolis have a shortage of units?
I agree with the changes for Lizards, Bone Golems, and other minor units.
Nargott, you surprised me. You can actually offer specific solutions. Thank you for that.
I've been offering specific solutions from the very beginning of the topic. There's nothing surprising about it; I'm always ready for a constructive dialogue, and I can justify any position and support it with examples, without hiding behind "different viewpoints."
Crossbows: upgrade < alt, reduce damage from 2-8 to 2-6, reduce the range of fire from 3 to 4 Either don't change it at all, or reduce the range of fire from 3 to 4 (only this) Demons: upgrade < alt, increase hit points from 13 to 16, increase the explosion by 2-3 times (or more) It's better not to touch them – there will be a clear imbalance.
There will definitely be no imbalance (this is confirmed by tournament practice with very similar changes). The question is, how do you personally perceive it? Can you explain why you think there is no significant difference between the upgrades (because increasing the range from 3 to 4 is not a big increase)?
Skeletons: upgrade < alt, increase damage from 1-2 to 1-3 There is no need to increase the damage (it will create an imbalance due to the number); it is better to increase their hit points by 10%.
+10% hit points for archers will hardly make any difference (this is a negligible change to a secondary stat), and it certainly won't make a difference for skeletons, since they have 5 hit points.
The pairs I mentioned have a significant gap that cannot be bridged with minor adjustments; in that case, it's better not to change them at all than to spoil the stats and still not get the desired result.
Shields: upgrade > alt, increase damage from 1-2 to 2-2 There is no point in changing them.
Why take the alt if the upgrade has such a powerful ability (a wall of shields) with approximately equal stats?
Wyverns (expensive, weak, and without Bloodlust): increase from 2 to 3, or make them available on week 1 (lower the requirement) There is no point; it is better to add 5-10% hit points.
5-10% hit points are definitely not changes worth making (the effect is negligible, but the stats are still "spoiled"). Wyverns were doubly unlucky when the balance was calculated: 1) when calculating, the developers confused the sizes of wyverns and paladins (they considered paladins as large and wyverns as small), so, since large size is a serious disadvantage, wyverns turned out to be significantly weaker than they were supposed to be. 2) they don't have Bloodlust (in other words, they often take twice as much damage as other orcs with Bloodlust and don't have any bonuses).
Vampires: upgrade < alt, change the stun factor from 1 to 3 (about 30% chance instead of 70%), increase hit points from 35 to 45 It is better not to touch them – there will be a clear imbalance.
Have you seen the alt in action? The upgrade is not even close to being competitive right now; it's just a mediocre unit. The alt with a 70% chance of stunning very quickly disables half of the enemy army. After the changes, at least the abilities and stats of both upgrades will be comparable.
Dancers: upgrade < alt, reduce damage from 4-6 to 2-5 I agree + reduce the damage of the upgrade by 1.
The upgrade is a rather average unit; there is no need to nerf it. Besides, the goal was to equalize the upgrade and the alt, not to lower both. "Ment"
Guys, before making such changes, equalizing upgrades and alts, you need to make sure that the balance of the factions is not worsened overall. Forest Archers: Elven Archers are not the strongest faction anyway, and you want to nerf what they rely on (along with Ents). Don't do that. If you equalize the upgrades, then rather strengthen the masters, or, if you even want to nerf, then boost unicorns or something else.
I definitely don't want to weaken Elven Archers, so, in parallel with nerfing dancers and archers, I suggested increasing the growth rate of fairies by 20%. Archers (upgrade) are already top-tier in their tier, and the alt is an overtuned unit. A similar situation with dancers: the alt is very strong (the best unit of tier 2), but if we raise the upgrade to their level without violating the concept, we will get simply insane additional damage for rushers, which spoils the game (elves already have the strongest rush). Unicorns or dragons cannot be buffed (these are rush units again), Ents can be buffed (with the consent of the majority), but only in terms of damage (because increasing hit points will seriously strengthen the elf-chaos hero).
What motivates the reduction in damage for human and elven alt archers? These are not only super-strong units, but they also introduce a huge element of luck in mirror matches. Whoever shoots first one-shots the archers of the opponent; this is definitely not a good practice (there was no such excess in any of the previous parts up to part 5).
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
I definitely don't want to weaken the Elves, so in parallel with nerfing the Dancers and Archers, I suggested increasing the Fae's growth by 20%. The upgraded Archers are already top-tier in their tier, and the Alt Archer is an obvious overpowered unit. A similar situation exists with the Dancers: the upgraded ones are very strong (the best unit of tier 2), but if we raise the regular ones to their level without violating the concept, we will get simply insane additional damage for rushers, which will ruin the game (the Elves already have the strongest rush). Unicorns or Dragons cannot be buffed (these are rush units again), and Ents can be buffed if desired (with the consent of the majority), but only in terms of damage (because a buff to hit points will seriously strengthen the Elf-Chaos hero).
What motivates the reduction in damage for the Human and Elf Alt Archers? These are not only super-strong units, but they also introduce a huge element of luck in mirror matches. Whoever shoots first one-shots the opponent's Archers, which is clearly not a very good practice (there was no such imbalance in any of the previous parts up to the 5th part).
I completely agree with this (especially the one-shot imbalance is annoying), and I was generally surprised that someone thinks that Unicorns are weak and need to be buffed:eek: - initiative, magic defense, decent HP for their level, and also Blind. Ents are also awesome - for me personally, they are the most amazing unit of level 6 in the entire game - units of this level suffer from low growth and a considerable cost, which leads to the fact that the loss of even one unit is noticeable - Ents are almost unkillable, and if you attach someone dangerous to them (for example, the same Chaos Demon), then you can practically ignore him - after rooting, the defense is off the charts + infinite retaliation, which makes the low initiative of the Ent a fact of not the first importance, and if you also take Nymphs, then you can even bring a couple of Ents back from the dead. By the way, regarding the Fae - the Alt version is a hundred times better than the upgraded one - symbiosis, higher damage (2-3 versus 2-2), the spells Remove Charm and Swarm can be ignored - at level 0, both spells are useless (in my mod, I gave Lay on Hands instead of symbiosis)
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален, Блистает там воздушностью прогалин. Но между кедров, полных тишиной, Расщелина по склону ниспадала. О, никогда под бледною луной Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
I completely agree (especially the one-shot mayhem is annoying), and I was surprised that someone thinks unicorns are weak and need to be buffed:eek: - initiative, magic defense, decent HP for their level, and also blindness. Ents are also awesome - for me, they are the best tier 6 unit in the entire game - units of this level suffer from a small increase in stats and a considerable cost, which leads to the fact that the loss of even one unit is noticeable - ents are almost invulnerable, and if you attach someone dangerous to them (for example, this same Black Dragon), then you can ignore him - after rooting, the defense is off the charts + infinite retaliation, which makes the low initiative of the ent not very important, and if you also take nymphs, then you can bring a couple of ents back from the dead. By the way, regarding fairies - the alternate form is a hundred times better than the upgraded one - symbiosis, higher damage (2-3 versus 2-2), the spells remove charm and swarm can be ignored - both spells are useless at level zero (in my mod, I gave Lay on Hands instead of symbiosis).
I cannot agree with the statement about strong ents, their survivability is impressive, but that's about it. Grabbing and binding is cool, but tier 6 is usually one of the key tiers in the army, so a passive exchange of 1 for 1 (grabbed and passively stand, both units are disabled) is not always beneficial, and it's not easy to grab more than one stack (unless it's the AI). There is no damage, no initiative, the speed is so-so (for a large creature). In RoA, if there is no money for a full buyout, ents are often not taken into the army at all, or they are taken on a residual basis (as many as there is enough money for). However, it is possible that in a breakthrough, ents look much better than in a final battle against a live opponent.
In short, in some situations, ents are good, and in others, not very good. In other words, they are perfectly balanced. I don't think that ents need to be changed at all (personal opinion).
Regarding fairies, yes, there is an imbalance, I missed it during a quick review (in RoA, the difference is corrected not by stats, but by enhanced spells). You can go the same way, increase the spellcasting skill of remove charm and swarm by 1. This is good because the stats are not touched at all (as if there are no changes). If you go the way of improving stats, then it's more complicated. Initiative can be increased by a maximum of +1 (up to 16), because this is the limit, and this is not enough, damage cannot be increased (the alternate form specializes in damage), increasing the survivability of fairies looks about as clumsy as with Cerberuses, and touching the speed is a bad idea (it significantly changes the perception of the unit).
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
And in general, I was surprised that someone thinks that unicorns are weak and need to be buffed – they have initiative, magical defense, decent HP for their level, and also a blinding ability.
Magical defense is useless, initiative and blinding are good, but the point is not in the unicorns, but in the fact that, in general, Light Elves are not a top-tier faction, and there is no point in weakening them. And the problem is mainly not in the units, actually.
I saw unicorns as a fairly simple solution, as they are clearly not as favored at their tier as archers at their tier, druids at their tier, and ents at their tier, for example. Although, perhaps, Nargoth's idea is better. But with nerfing archers and dancers, a significant buff for fairies is needed. Perhaps, increase the magic of dryads (give them a higher skill level) and a special ability for nymphs? I think it would be good in its own way.
Regarding fairies, yes, there is an imbalance; I missed it during a quick review (in RTA, the difference is corrected not through stats, but through enhanced spells). You can follow a similar path, increasing the spellcasting and dispel magic skills by 1. The advantage is that stats are not touched at all (as if there are no changes).
Well, that's basically it, yes. That's why I say that symbiosis can also be strengthened – dispel magic and the swarm of wasps with the skill already look relatively decent (the swarm of wasps should push back on the initiative scale, if I'm not mistaken). But you need to "survive" until the nymphs' special ability takes effect – ents don't appear immediately, and there are also moments when their survivability is not enough.
Yes, the Swarm of Bees spell will push back units – I’ve done that, but honestly, it looks a bit overpowered in the early stages of the game. We separate the sprites into individual units, and they start attacking enemy units one by one with the Swarm of Bees, and at that point, the damage from the sprites doesn’t matter; what matters is the pushback effect. The enemy doesn’t even get a turn and dies under the onslaught of elven archers and the hero’s attacks – 4-5 high-initiative sprite units that can cast Swarm of Bees twice won’t let the opponent attack even once. Previously, the dangerous process of killing archmages or these same elven archers turns into a slaughter (we’re talking about playing against neutral creatures in the early stages, but it gives a significant advantage).
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален, Блистает там воздушностью прогалин. Но между кедров, полных тишиной, Расщелина по склону ниспадала. О, никогда под бледною луной Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
Indeed, I didn't think about the single units. Although, on the other hand, maybe it won't differ much from the tactic of clearing neutral creatures near the Town Hall... Here -- 5 single units of fairies, archers, and druids (the most likely setup). There -- 7 single units of hunters and a Chaos hero. Should we equate these situations? Heh, maybe not.
Generally, starting with the Elven faction is quite inconvenient. These factions, like the Necropolis (as you described), or even a Necromancer, can easily break even and even increase their army size through raising undead. I think it might be possible to increase the level of the Summoning magic skill to summon a swarm of sprites, but only from zero to basic (I initially raised it to expert – I got carried away, then I tried to raise it to advanced – it was still difficult). Also, it should be taken into account that half of the units don't care about the swarm of sprites (undead, elementals, and constructs).
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален, Блистает там воздушностью прогалин. Но между кедров, полных тишиной, Расщелина по склону ниспадала. О, никогда под бледною луной Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
I saw Unicorns as a fairly straightforward solution because they are clearly not as favored on their tier as Archers are on theirs, Druids on theirs, and Ents on theirs, for example. Although, perhaps Nargott's idea is better. However, if Archers and Dancers are nerfed, the buff for Fairies needs to be quite significant. Perhaps strengthening the magic of Dryads (giving them a higher skill level) and a special ability for Nymphs? I think that would be good in its own way.
A +20% increase for Fairies is a fairly significant buff (against the backdrop of a -10% grade nerf for Dancers and a -25% grade nerf for Elves). Because it also affects the un-upgraded units, which is important at the start of the game. The basic Wasps deal 20% more damage on the scale, which will undoubtedly significantly increase their effectiveness when using a few stacks of Fairies at the beginning of the game. I don't think it makes sense to strengthen Symbiosis; it's already good. However, Wasps shouldn't be overestimated either – yes, each stack will deal 40% knockback (in total for 2 casts), but the damage of the best upgrades of tier 2-3 is significantly reduced, and continuing to use basic Fairies in the middle of the game means giving up on, say, basic Druids, which are no less effective.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition. Сайт проекта - пока неактивен Автор Асимметричных шахмат
Frozensoull I had a good laugh at the balance changes.
The main thing is not the mistakes, but the final result. No matter how many obstacles there are, the outcome can be the same. All our words are worth nothing until they are put into practice. Some people deliver, and some don't.
Your idea is quite interesting; visually, the spell blends perfectly with the image and name of the shamans, but the main problem lies in its implementation. Creating the ability itself won't be difficult, but the damage it deals depends on the number of creatures in the stack. Since there are far fewer Thunderlords, the ability will deal significant damage. If you give it to the shamans, there will be no escaping them. Furthermore, the Daughters of the Earth will become useless.
It's clear that if the cloud is given to the Daughters of the Sky, it won't be available to the Thunderlords. Some things are obvious.
I gave the fire hounds the lava breath of the Alt Gnome dragons and weakened it – it was fun: immediately 6 fire attacks from a single bite...
Nargott, you surprised me. After all, you can offer specific solutions. Thank you for that.
Added 10 minutes ago Now regarding the issue: I will highlight my comments in bold for clarity.
My comments will be highlighted in green and red.
Rameliya
Rakshasas: upgrade < alt, increase initiative from 8 to 10, plus possibly swap speed (7 for upgrade, 6 for alt) There is no need to increase their initiative and speed - it's already quite high; on the contrary, I would like to weaken them a little - this is a very strong unit In version 1.0.1, both the upgrade and the alternative upgrade received +1 to initiative. This is more than enough. Lizards: upgrade > alt, give alt 25% chance to hit up to 100% I agree Agreed. The damage coefficient of the "Random Attack" ability will be increased to 75%, instead of 25%. Crossbowmen: upgrade < alt, reduce alt damage from 2-8 to 2-6, increase upgrade range from 3 to 4 Either don't change at all, or only increase the attack range from 3 to 4 Changes to crossbowmen/archers will be determined by the results of the vote. Demons: upgrade < alt, increase health from 13 to 16, increase explosion in 2-3 times (or more) It's better not to touch them - it will create an obvious imbalance Partially agreed. The unit will be strengthened. Succubi: upgrade < alt, decrease initiative for alt from 9 to 7 I completely agree Agreed. Initiative will be reduced to 8 units (compared to Demonesses, the difference will be 2 units of initiative, which is more than enough to compensate for the control advantage). Skeletons: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade damage from 1-2 to 1-3 There is no need to increase damage (it will cause an imbalance); it's better to increase their HP by 10% I agree with Rameliya; they will overwhelm with numbers, especially in games at low levels, since skeletons and their upgraded versions will primarily be recruited. Vampires: upgrade < alt, change alt stun factor from 1 instead of 3 (about 30% chance instead of 70%), increase upgrade health from 35 to 45 It's better not to touch them - it will create an obvious imbalance Partially agreed. The mechanics of Higher Vampires/Vampire Princes will be revised. Dervishes: upgrade < alt, reduce alt damage from 4-6 to 2-5 I agree + reduce upgrade damage by 1 In version 2.0, Dancing Death received the "Charge" ability and a slight nerf to damage, as the ability was too powerful for a tier 2 creature. This is more than enough to compensate for the inequality between the upgrade and alternative upgrade. The damage of Dancing Death will be further adjusted, as sometimes it is extremely high and far exceeds that of Wind Dancers. Lurkers: upgrade < alt, remove direct hit or enhanced arrow from alt, plus possibly swap initiative (11 for upgrade, 10 for alt) I agree Partially agreed. Master Archers will be strengthened further; version 2.0 did not completely solve the problem of inequality between the upgrade and alternative upgrade.
Shields: upgrade > alt, increase alt damage from 1-2 to 2-2 There's no point in touching them Partially agreed. The unit's survivability will be slightly increased. The "Defensive Position" ability is significantly inferior to the "Wall of Shields" ability; because of this, Mountain Guards have stats slightly higher than Warriors, but this is not enough.
Berserkers: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade damage from 3-8 to 6-8 It doesn't make sense; it's better to add HP Partially agreed. The characteristics of the unit will be revised. Fighters: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade health from 12 to 15 I agree Agreed. Health will be increased to 15 units. Shamans: upgrade < alt, give upgrade 16 mana Either this option or don't touch them at all Changes to Daughters of Heaven will be determined by the results of the vote.
Next, a little creativity for frankly failed tiers:
Wyverns (expensive, weak, and without blood): increase recruitment from 2 to 3, or make them available on week 1 (lower the threshold) There's no point; it's better to add 5-10% HP I wouldn't say that Paoka are particularly bad; they can win many battles. Poisonous Wyverns were strengthened enough in version 2.0.
Necrodrakes (very expensive and weak): significantly (twice?) reduce the total cost of building dwellings, both overall and per mercury Oh, this is a very good idea. I agree Ghostly and Astral Dragons were significantly strengthened back in version 1.0.1, and they now provide almost equal competition, and in some situations, perhaps even a slight advantage over other tier 7 creatures. Reducing the cost of building dwellings was implemented in version 2.0.
P.S Before suggesting changes, please make sure that they have not been made before. You can view the list of changes here.
It's clear that if the Thunderlords have a chain lightning attack, then the Sky Maidens won't. Some things are obvious.
The Thunderlords could be given a chain lightning attack, while the Titans retain only the single-target attack, but with increased damage. You could make the Thunderlords like "chaos units" in a figurative sense, giving them a relatively dangerous chain attack for their own units and a large damage spread, while the Titans would be ranged attackers, dealing stable damage to a single target. Or, as a crazy idea, you could remove the ranged attack from one of the upgrades (while increasing the speed). That would be interesting...
Ment
