Skip to content

Posts from UNIT - Creature Balance + Visual Changes

4.8 (5 ratings)
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Balance is a delicate matter. I am in favor of small, targeted adjustments, but only where they are truly needed and appropriate. The experience from RTA and TE is certainly a very important factor.
Writing the entire balance from scratch is an extremely complex and thankless task. Perhaps such an approach would be more objective, but it involves too much work! I think it is wiser to refine what already exists, but in a way that these refinements bring harmony.
In reply to atlant108
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
atlant108
Balance is a delicate matter. I am in favor of small, targeted adjustments, but only where they are truly needed and appropriate. The experience from RTA and TE is certainly a very important factor.
Writing the entire balance from scratch is an extremely complex and thankless task. Perhaps such an approach would be more objective, but it involves too much work! I think it is wiser to refine what already exists, but in a way that these refinements bring harmony.
I suggest applying your small, targeted adjustments to the real problems described in the post above.
In reply to RedHeavenHero
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
RedHeavenHero
If we're talking about "not going too far," increasing the range of accurate fire for crossbowmen to 6 cells while keeping everything else as it was would be quite enough.
And if we want to go even further, we could add a silencer for archers, as suggested here.

I agree with increasing the range to 6 cells, but then they need to be weakened in compensation for the buff. Or just leave them untouched.


Added 5 minutes ago
Frozensoull
Seven options for crossbowmen were proposed (see page 6, towards the end); are there any opinions on this? Which option is better?

Or should they not be changed at all? (except perhaps increasing the range)

Daughters of Heaven. Previously, their "Chain Lightning" spell was replaced with "Blindness," which caused justified outrage because the spell allowed you to stun any creature, even one much stronger, for a long time.

There are several suggestions for resolving this situation:
1) Replace the "Blindness" spell with "Punishing Strike" at an advanced level. Visually, the spell looks very similar to blood magic, which blends perfectly with the image of the shaman, and a powerful enough buff will be a worthy replacement for blindness.

2) Replace the "Blindness" spell with "Summon Elementals" at the initial level. The elementals won't add much combat power but can be very useful as pawns (if they aren't water or fire elementals).

3) Return the unit's stats and abilities to their original values.

I am more inclined towards point 3, but I also don't mind point 1; however, if we strengthen the mothers with magic, then we need to reduce their defense or health.

Added 39 minutes ago
Respected Nargott writes: in game balance, it is primarily important to collect statistics, feedback, and analyze this data (i.e., a large amount of information)... Now on the topic of real imbalances, let's open the file with changes from RTA, open the creatures section, see who was strengthened/weakened, and draw conclusions:

Stop, tell me more about this: Respected Nargott, you cite Half-RTA 1.11 as an example, but why? What is Half-RTA? I answer my own question:

This map is an arena for conducting one single battle between two upgraded heroes. It is similar to duels, but here you build the hero yourself. You can choose what skills and abilities he will have, his army, artifacts. It can also be compared to an "emulator" of the final battle. Only here, you don't need to focus on building a city, clearing neutrals, and capturing the map. Everything is reduced to a decisive battle between the main heroes. The map includes a mod that changes the game mechanics (i.e., creature stats, hero specializations, how abilities work, etc.). I read this information from you::)
http://forum.heroesleague.ru/viewtopic.php?t=20883

But how can we consider statistics from Half-RTA if it is an incomplete, truncated game - it's just a tournament!!!!!!!!!! There is no long playthrough, weekly growth, tactics, or strategy, and many other things; moreover, there is a built-in duel mode!
The fact that Half-RTA is used in tournaments is not indicative. Also, look at the number of players. http://forum.heroesleague.ru/
It is clear that Half-RTA is not very popular, yielding to the original version Tribes of the East 3.1

Why then do you cite this questionable statistic as an example?
I agree with ozensFroull in that you have ABSOLUTELY DIFFERENT VIEWS ON BALANCE, but you insist on your line, imposing your vision of balance on forum participants, AND YOU ARE ALSO RECOMMENDING QUESTIONABLE STATISTICS (I proved this above)
I don't want to offend you in any way; you have your opinion and position, I have mine, but your balance option resembles complete nonsense, detached from the reality of the original 3.1
If Frozensoull created his own mod for Half-RTA, then I wouldn't say anything, but the mod was created for the original version 3.1, so in this context, you are CLEARLY wrong, AND DESPITE THIS, you continue to prove the opposite:)
In reply to Rameliya
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Rameliya

I agree with increasing the range to 6 tiles, but then they need to be weakened to compensate for the buff. Or just leave them as they are.
The problem is that the alternate archer is much stronger. If you weaken the archers "to compensate for the buff," how will they catch up to the alternate archer? This approach is possible if you also nerf the alternate archer. But if you nerf the alternate archer, then it's not necessary to increase the range to 6 when upgrading the building, and even more so, it's not necessary to weaken the upgrade stats.
But how can you consider the statistics of Half-RTA when it's an incomplete, cut-down game – it's just a tournament! There's no long playthrough, weekly progress, tactics, and strategy, and many other things, especially since it has a built-in duel mode!
The fact that Half-RTA is used in tournaments is not an indicator. Also, look at the number of players. http://forum.heroesleague.ru/
It's clear that Half-RTA is not very popular, losing out to the original version, Tribes of the East 3.1.
May this mod achieve the same popularity as RTA, which a whole community has been working on for many years! ))
In reality, RTA is a successful and long-lasting mod, unlike one-off mods.
Yes, it's a "duel" game, and the unit balance in pairs has its own specifics (different from the situation in a standard game), but nevertheless, the most obvious imbalances are clearly visible, and moreover, they are repeated in the "full-fledged" tournament version of Tribes of the East. Again, you can filter out the imbalances (as I did, questioning the inequality of Cerberuses).

The popularity of RTA is orders of magnitude lower than 3.1, simply because of what I mentioned above; the popularity of mods is almost always orders of magnitude lower than that of original games. There are very few exceptions. In the Heroes community, there are currently none. Even WoG is much less popular than the original Heroes 3.

Regarding the RTA format, I once kept official statistics on the number of people who played in tournaments over time. It amounted to several hundred (in the Russian-speaking segment), and many play repeatedly over several years. Try to organize a tournament with 20-30 people on at least one mod, and then say that RTA is not popular. You can also Google tournaments for the original 3.1 and compare the number of participants and the frequency of these tournaments (but I won't do that, as it's off-topic).
In reply to atlant108
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
On the topic:

1) Haven. - Slightly increase the defense or hit points of griffins (+2 hit points). And that's it. Leave the crossbowmen alone.

I agree

2) Sylvan: - Increase the hit points of sprites (+2), reduce the attack of dancers (-1), reduce the defense of dryads (-2) - they are too hard to defeat. And that's it.
Or maybe we shouldn't touch the sprites? It's a pity to weaken the ents; they are often the only ones who survive :) :)
3) Orcs: - Weaken cyclopses (-2), slightly increase the defense of executioners and wyverns (+2), add 1 spell to shamans (summon elementals)

I agree, cyclopses need to be weakened. Maybe we shouldn't touch the shamans.

4) Dwarves. Weaken thanes (remove their overpowered ability). Berserkers (add defense or hit points)

Yes, berserkers need to be strengthened.

5) Necromancer. Reduce the ability of ghosts (intangibility), slightly strengthen archers (+2 to hit points). Strengthen the dragon (+1 to minimum damage)

I agree, maybe also reduce the abilities of liches? (just a question)

6) Dark Elves. In general, this is probably the strongest faction, in my opinion. We can weaken hydras (-2 to defense) and dragons (-1), night queens (-1 to defense)

I agree with everything + Their dragons are the strongest! Let's weaken them.

7) Demons. Strengthen cerberuses (+2 hit points). Hellhounds (+1 to initiative)

What about succubi, maybe weaken them?

8) Mages. Add defense to djinn - they constantly die - they are a weak link (+1). Reduce the maximum damage of rakshasa (-2)

I support this + add hit points to gremlins.

9) War Machines. Definitely strengthen them, as they are weak by default. It is not always advisable to develop them. Even the developers themselves admit this. For example, in Heroes 7, war machines were significantly strengthened. There are many options; I have already written articles on this topic - I don't want to repeat myself. I would like to hear your suggestions on this issue.
We can add hit points to ballista, pavilion, and cart. Also, increase the damage of the ballista

10) Artifacts I would like to add new ones, as well as adjust the old ones. For example, we can add artifacts for war machines. In addition, we can add new composite artifacts.
I agree. But this is difficult for me.
In reply to Rameliya
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Rameliya
On the topic:

1) Haven. - Slightly increase the defense or hit points of the griffins (+2 hit points). And that's it. Leave the archers alone.
The problem with such requests is that they are different for everyone. Some might say that +2 to the griffins' defense is good, while others might say, "Why did you change it?" And if there are many such changes, the number of complaints increases, and the number of people who want them decreases.

At the same time, there are significant imbalances. Which everyone or most people agree on. These should be fixed first (based on the stated goal).
Nargott, please calm down, I really didn't mean to offend you, it's just that, even from the outside, it's clear that you are advertising your mod in the thread of someone else's mod, Unit. This is, at the very least, somewhat inappropriate. Aren't you ashamed to act like this?
Seriously? My mod is listed in my signature, and RTA and TE are not my mods. If I am advertising anything in this thread, it is my experience.

Specifically on the topic, I have already said. See the list of problematic areas (main imbalances) above. I will not say how to fix them, otherwise they will again consider it intrusive.
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Nargott, I didn't mean to offend you, it's just that it's obvious that you're advertising your mod in the thread for someone else's mod, Unit. At the very least, it's somewhat inappropriate. Aren't you ashamed to act like this?
But let's not talk about it anymore – how long can we keep beating around the bush?
Instead, offer something concrete on the topic, like other forum members do.

Added 1 minute ago
Nargott
The problem with these kinds of requests is that everyone has their own. Some will say it's good to add +2 defense to griffins, while others will say, why did you change it? And if there are many such changes, the number of complaints also increases. At the same time, there are significant imbalances that divide everyone or the majority. These are the ones that need to be fixed first.

Okay, suggest your specific options

Added 2 minutes ago
Your experience is important, but if you are asked to demonstrate it with a specific example, why do you avoid the question?
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Okay, based on the significant problems identified:

Rakshasa: upgrade < alt, increase initiative from 8 to 10, plus possibly swap speed (7 for upgrade, 6 for alt)
Lizards: upgrade > alt, increase alt's chance to hit from 25% to 100%
Crossbowmen: upgrade < alt, reduce alt's damage from 2-8 to 2-6, increase upgrade's range from 3 to 4
Demons: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's hit points from 13 to 16, increase explosion damage by 2-3 times (or more)
Succubi: upgrade < alt, reduce alt's initiative from 9 to 7
Skeletons: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's damage from 1-2 to 1-3
Vampires: upgrade < alt, change alt's stun factor from 1 instead of 3 (approximately 30% chance instead of 70%), increase upgrade's hit points from 35 to 45
Dancers: upgrade < alt, reduce alt's damage from 4-6 to 2-5
Lukari: upgrade < alt, remove direct hit or enhanced arrow from alt, plus possibly swap initiative (11 for upgrade, 10 for alt)
Shields: upgrade > alt, increase alt's damage from 1-2 to 2-2
Bonecrushers: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's damage from 3-8 to 6-8
Fighters: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's hit points from 12 to 15
Shamans: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's mana by 16

Roughly, without using calculators. It's not a fact that these are the best changes. But it's almost certain that these are appropriate changes (in the right places and in the right direction).

What's good here: minimal number of edits (1-2 per pair, small number of pairs), no excessively sharp changes in stats (all within 20-30%), no insignificant bonuses that don't change much (like +2 defense), no creativity/arbitrariness in adding new abilities, and an ability is only removed once (where it is clearly redundant), in most cases, the general logic of the units is preserved (characteristic aspects are not averaged), and the key characteristic of unit perception - speed - is not changed (with the exception of the swap for Rakshasa). It's not a fact that these are the best criteria for selecting changes, but the very fact of their existence reduces arbitrariness (subjective desires) and adds to the consistency of the systematic approach.

Next, a little creativity regarding frankly failed tiers:

Wyverns (expensive, weak, and without blood): increase growth from 2 to 3, or make them available on week 1 (lower the threshold)
Necrodrakes (very expensive and weak): significantly (by 2 times?) reduce the overall cost of building dwellings, both in general and for mercury

You can also remember units that are subjectively worse and have weak abilities. For example, the weak flame of dwarven dragons (increase it by 2 times). Such things, although not as obvious as the imbalances above, have a pleasant side effect - bad abilities become better. At least, it can be considered in a vote. Plus, you can raise other subjective questions, for example, in the Nightmare pair, is there an imbalance between upgrade and alt? And if there is a large number of votes confirming the imbalance, only then come up with an adjustment (for example, reduce the alt's aura damage).

Furthermore, you can look at races. We see that the Elves have had their 2nd and 3rd tiers weakened; you can increase the growth of fairies by 20% (as an option). Or, since the 4th tier of Demons has been weakened, you can make it available 3 days earlier (lower the threshold). These are not independent changes (there is no point in simply strengthening fairies), but rather consequences of the previous ones.
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Gremlins: grade < alt
Well, there, a comrade enhanced them by equipping gargoyles with mechanisms.
In reply to Nargott
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Nargott
Dancers: grade < alt, alt damage from 4-6 to 2-5
What about "splash damage"? :D Although here it's quite mediocre, and it's not difficult to avoid it. Otherwise, I agree with everything (even though I'm not a tournament participant and not a hardcore player); it's a pity that it turned into a mess as always. I hope something worthwhile will come out of this.
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Regarding the dancers, the splash ability is the deciding factor, but it's only a partial splash, and their stats are much worse. In the case of Rakshasa, the splash is full, and the stats are significantly better. Another option for the dancers is to upgrade the splash to full, and reduce the damage from 4-6 to 3-5. The argument arose because I don't shy away from speaking the truth, and that's not the best way to gain favor.

Added 16 minutes later
Ment
Well, that guy actually improved them by adding mechanisms to the gargoyles.
Yes, but besides that, there were a lot of other unjustified (from the point of view of the current balance) changes. Out of 10 shots in the dark, 1 randomly hits the target.

By the way, the imbalance with the gremlins is not so obvious if you remember the specifics of the RTA (and the adjustment there is small, only +3 attack). Namely, the final battle, in which repair matters less than in dealing damage, and causing harm matters more. Therefore, in the TE, the gremlins were not touched.
In reply to Dyrman
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Dyrman
I am generally against giving magic to Orcs. And this is not an isolated opinion. The Sky Daughters would be a good fit for the Cloud of Thunderers.

Weren't shamans envisioned by the developers as spellcasters? The Sky Daughters control the element of air (Chain Lightning), while the Earth Daughters are more inclined towards melee combat, although they also have a couple of spells, but not with such destructive power.

All creatures in the Orc faction are designed around brute force; even the hero doesn't have "traditional" magic from the four schools. Therefore, for variety, the Sky Daughters were given their own abilities back in the original game. For those who prefer physical strength, there were the Earth Daughters.

Your option is very interesting; visually, the spell fits well with the image and name of the shamans, but the main problem lies in its implementation. Giving them the ability wouldn't be particularly difficult, but the damage it deals depends on the number of units in the stack. Since there are fewer Thunderers, the ability will deal significant damage. If you give it to the shamans, there will be no saving them. Furthermore, the Earth Daughters will become useless.
If you give the shamans the ability and reduce its damage, then the Thunderers will become useless because you can't adjust the ability only for one unit.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Regarding the crossbowmen, opinions are divided as follows:
(opinions are taken into account not only in this thread but also in private messages and VK)

No one has voted for option 1.3 yet.
1 vote for option 2.
2 votes for option 4.
2 votes for option 5.
1 vote for option 6.
2 votes for option 7.

Sky Daughters.
2 votes for option 1.
1 vote for option 2.
2 votes for option 3.

The situation is not entirely clear yet, but preferences are already visible. My vote was not included in the count, but if a preferred option is not chosen by the 22nd, it will be decisive.

You can view the crossbowman options in posts 86 and 90, and the Sky Daughter options in 98.
10 years ago
Auto-translated
If I'm not mistaken, the "spell power" parameter doesn't affect Thunderbirds, so the "Wrath of Blood" bonuses from Sky Daughters will be practically useless. However, this is easily fixable – just give them different bonuses.
There's also the option of using the "Titan Bolt" spell (focused damage instead of area-of-effect), which is easily customizable. Or "Storm Strike," like the ones used by Trolls 1-3 times per battle.
P.S.: I didn't vote in the VK poll because I simply don't know where, so I'll post my answer here: Sky Daughters – option #3, Archers – option #5.
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Leave the Sorceresses as they are. No need to add anything else to them. Give the Arbalests a 6-range accurate shot and that’s it.
Cerberuses and hellhounds were buffed not because they were unpopular, but because they were too fragile.
They have an unblockable attack and an attack on multiple targets, which is more than enough to compensate for their low defense, plus they have high speed and initiative. You can use the Stone Golem on Expert difficulty if needed.
User Avatar
10 years ago
Auto-translated
Nargott, you surprised me. After all, you can offer specific solutions. Thank you for that.

Added 10 minutes ago
Now, regarding the issue: I will highlight my comments in bold for clarity.
Nargott
Okay, I'm proceeding based on the identified key issues:

Rakshasa: upgrade < alt, increase initiative from 8 to 10, and possibly swap speed (7 for upgrade, 6 for alt)
There's no need to increase their initiative and speed – they already have a decent amount. Instead, I'd like to see them slightly weakened – they are a very strong unit.
Lizards: upgrade > alt, increase alt's hit chance from 25% to 100%.
I agree.
Crossbowmen: upgrade < alt, reduce alt's damage from 2-8 to 2-6, increase upgrade's range from 3 to 4.
Either don't change them at all, or increase the range from 3 to 4 (only this).
Demons: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's hit points from 13 to 16, increase the explosion damage by 2-3 times (or more).
It's better not to touch them – it will create a clear imbalance.
Succubi: upgrade < alt, reduce alt's initiative from 9 to 7.
I completely agree.
Skeletons: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's damage from 1-2 to 1-3.
There's no need to increase the damage (it will create an imbalance due to the quantity); it's better to increase their HP by 10%.
Vampires: upgrade < alt, change alt's stun factor from 1 instead of 3 (approximately 30% chance instead of 70%), increase upgrade's hit points from 35 to 45.
It's better not to touch them – it will create a clear imbalance.
Dancers: upgrade < alt, reduce alt's damage from 4-6 to 2-5.
I agree + reduce the upgrade's damage by 1.
Lukari: upgrade < alt, remove direct hit or enhanced arrow from alt, and possibly swap initiative (11 for upgrade, 10 for alt).
I agree.
Shields: upgrade > alt, increase alt's damage from 1-2 to 2-2.
There's no point in changing them.
Bone Crushers: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's damage from 3-8 to 6-8.
There's no point; it's better to add HP.
Warriors: upgrade < alt, increase upgrade's hit points from 12 to 15.
I agree.
Shamans: upgrade < alt, give upgrade 16 mana.
Either this option, or don't touch them at all.
Off the top of my head, without calculators. It's not a fact that these are the best changes. But it's almost certain that these are appropriate changes (in the right places and in the right direction).

What's good here: a minimal number of changes (1-2 per pair, a small number of pairs), there are no too drastic changes in stats (all within 20-30%), there are no insignificant bonuses that don't change much (like +2 defense), there's no creativity/arbitrariness in adding new abilities, and an ability is only removed once (where it's clearly excessive), and in most cases, the overall logic of the units is preserved (characteristic strengths are not averaged), and the key characteristic of unit perception – speed – is not changed (with the exception of the swap for Rakshasa). It's not a fact that these are the best criteria for selecting changes, but the very fact of their existence reduces arbitrariness (subjective desires) and adds to the systematic approach.

Next, a little creativity regarding the frankly failing tiers:

Wyverns (expensive, weak, and without blood): increase growth from 2 to 3, or make them available on week 1 (lower the threshold).
There's no point; it's better to add 5-10% HP.
Necrodrakes (very expensive and weak): significantly (by 2 times?) reduce the overall cost of building dwellings, both in general and for mercury.
Oh, that's a very good idea. I agree.
You can also recall units that are subjectively weaker and have weak abilities. For example, the weak flame of gnome dragons (increase it by 2 times). These things, although not as obvious as the imbalances above, have a pleasant side effect – bad abilities become better. At least, they can be considered in a vote. Plus, you can raise other subjective questions, for example, in the pair of Nightmares, is there an imbalance between upgrade and alt? And if there are a large number of votes confirming the imbalance, only then come up with a way to balance it (for example, reduce the alt's aura damage).

Furthermore, you can look at the races. We see that the Elves' 2nd and 3rd tiers have been weakened; you can increase the growth of fairies by 20% (as an option). Or, since the 4th tier of Demons has been weakened, you can make it available 3 days earlier (lower the threshold). These are not independent changes (there's no point in simply strengthening fairies), but rather consequences of the previous ones.

Statistics

Welcome our newest member: recijeb