Balance in HotA. — Horn of the Abyss / HOTA

KobRa_RR

10 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Where did you get the information about the developers? In the neighboring thread, a guy is suggesting bringing it back)))

It, like some other objects, was extracted from the graphic files of the original game by our talented developers from St. Petersburg.

Sav

10 years ago

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The game does indeed have an image and a name for the object called Market of Time. However, no properties have been programmed for it. In the map editor hints, the object exists, but its properties are not described. And, as far as I know, there are no reliable sources indicating that any functionality related to skills was planned. The ability to forget a skill was likely invented by the creators of Wog.

=Lizard=

10 years ago

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Regarding control, ideally: remove Town Portal from КЗ, remove Dimension Door and fly from КВ and the oracle's hat. Make these spells available only for insane amounts of money in a special building that is the same for all Castles. Although, of course, that would be a completely different game. Not atmospheric in the slightest.

In reply to Sav

KobRa_RR

10 years ago

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Sav

The game does indeed have an image and name for the object called Market of Time. However, no properties are programmed for it. In the map editor hints, the object exists, but its properties are not described. And, as far as I know, there are no reliable sources that indicate any planned functionality related to skills. The ability to forget a skill was likely invented by the creators of Wog.

yes, here's what Google shows:
http://www.gamez.ru/talks/12516.htm

nik312

10 years ago

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NIK, with all due respect to what you're doing, you can't remove one bug and leave another: I'm talking about the inability of a two-hex unit to step back one cell.Well, there are still plenty of bugs in the game. This one doesn't seem to be the highest priority. If Sava gets around to it, he'll fix it. But how is it related to tactical deployment? Why suddenly can't one be fixed without the other?

Which game? SoD is already unrecognizable in HotA (to each their own degree).

Well, it's a real shame if you feel that way.

The fact that Haste and Slow are level 1, while things like Quicksand, Minefields, Elemental Protections, and Sorrows are levels 2-4 — now that is 100% trash.

That the usefulness of a spell at expert level is weakly linked to its guild level? I don't see any particular "trash" there. Level isn't strictly tied to frequency or ease of acquisition. Considering how half the gameplay was built around this, it's too late to change it fundamentally now.

And in general, instead of chasing some abstract classicism, I would prefer a clearer and more understandable logical approach to changes.

Unfortunately, that is simply impossible for now. No one has been able to logically define the atmosphere of Heroes yet, so everything rests on the personal opinions of the team members. Fortunately, these opinions align quite well on most atmospheric questions.

And then, damn it, to an innocent suggestion about the logical possibility of removing a skill from the Witch and the Scholar, you get — no, that's not classic, not atmospheric...

Well, it happens. The team's ideas of these concepts are generally similar, but they don't overlap 100%. Nevertheless, they are valuable and in many cases work in the right direction.

market of time, a classic object intended by the developers themselves

Only the graphics were intended. The properties are unknown and were created by the VoG team independently

In reply to nik312

KobRa_RR

10 years ago

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nik312

Well, there are still a lot of bugs in the game. This one doesn't seem to be the most critical. If Sava has time, he'll fix it. But how is it related to the unit placement in tactical mode? Why can't the fix for one be done without the other?

Regardless of the fact that this was a feature that everyone used for two decades, that everyone got used to, and that it didn't really qualify as a bug, we have the following: two-cell units had a bonus to move one cell forward, which was balanced by the inability to move them one cell backward (-1+1=0), which hindered them quite a bit in some battles. Now, the bonus has been removed, but the disadvantage (-1) remains.

Added 2 minutes ago
I would also like to talk about how useful it is for archers to attack in melee (thus eliminating counterattacks, for example).

Added 5 minutes ago

nik312

That the usefulness of a spell on expert difficulty is weakly related to its level in the guild? I don't see anything particularly terrible about that. The level isn't particularly directly related to the frequency/ease of obtaining it. Given how much of the gameplay is built around this, it's already too late to change it drastically.

The gameplay in HotA is relatively new, less than a year old, so what's the point of referring to it? But I would like to see a balance of spells and magic, because a significant number of useless spells and skills contradict the spirit of the game. (by the way, you can't say the same about objects or heroes anymore...)

In reply to KobRa_RR

Pridu

10 years ago

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KobRa_RR

I would also like to discuss the usefulness of archers attacking in melee (thus negating counterattacks, for example).

We should start with something small, like harpies.

In reply to nik312

baratorch

10 years ago

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nik312

Which game are you talking about? The gameplay in Heroes is already unrecognizable compared to SoD (in its own way).

Well, it's a shame if you think so.
The abilities of Magogs, Liches, Phoenixes, Archdevils, the order and cost of building cities, the cost and growth rates of creatures, negative luck, bug fixes that significantly change the gameplay – all of this is already "very different from SoD." Nothing like SoD with Armageddon's Blade or Armageddon's Blade with Horn of the Abyss was done.

Why is it okay to change all of the above (since it all drastically changes the familiar gameplay), but not the SoD spells?

Aiwe

10 years ago

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I completely agree with Baratortch. There's a difference between The Shadow of Death and Armageddon's Blade in terms of additional campaigns and new combined artifacts, which is clearly less significant than the difference between The Shadow of Death and Horn of the Abyss. And that's a good thing. Why not focus more on balancing spells, as many options have already been suggested? And I also don't quite understand the decision not to add checkboxes. Look at how quickly Wizard's patch, with its restructuring and replacement of one-sided units, became popular.

In reply to Aiwe

=Lizard=

10 years ago

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Aiwe

I also don't quite understand the reasoning behind not adding checkboxes. Look at how quickly the Wizard patch, with its restructuring and replacement of one-sided units, became popular.

+1

And I won't even mention the bidding for a castle (hero) and its color. Just half a year ago, most people responded to my suggestion to bid instead of simply choosing with - no way, how could that be... And now, it's not uncommon to find those who still choose directly. We're on the right track, even if it's slow:cool:.

In reply to =Lizard=

FireToSky

10 years ago

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=Lizard=

+1

And I won't even mention the trading for a castle (hero) and its color. Half a year ago, most people would respond to my offer to trade instead of just accepting – "No way, what kind of…". But now, it's not so rare to find those who just accept. We're on the right track, even if it's slow:cool:.

I agree, this immediately made me want to play SOD. All these shrines, scrolls, etc., just add more randomness, while restructuring smooths it all out.
If restructuring appears in HOT, I'll play it too. Variety in strategic terms is pleasing, but the "Ideology" regarding the guild is still unclear.

In reply to Aiwe

Vinceras

10 years ago

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Aiwe

I completely agree with Baratorch. Between SoD and AB, the difference is in the additional campaign and new composite artifacts, which is clearly less than between SoD and HotA. And that's a good thing. Why not focus more on spell balance, especially since plenty of options have been proposed?

Also, I don't quite understand the position of not adding checkboxes. Look at how quickly Wizard's patch with rebuilding and replacing one-way paths took hold.

SoD and AB were made by one team, and the whole world plays these games; that's the difference. The problem is that the game wasn't originally designed for online play. It's probably very difficult to achieve this at an amateur level. Moreover, in Heroes, unlike something like StarCraft, there is randomness at every step in many forms. Rebuilding the guild certainly diversifies the game, but the problem still remains: one person gets Tower and Rampart, another gets 2 Swamps and a Citadel.

Marcus Aurelius

10 years ago

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When balancing magic, the main goal is to ensure that there are no completely useless spells. If there are spells that are used rarely, they should be used effectively, meaning they should be stronger than those used frequently. As for how to achieve this, it's not very important to me. If the team has any principles on this matter, that's fine, but the most important thing is the result.

shpilenger

10 years ago

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Regarding the scrolls that grant control, I'm not saying that whoever finds them first will definitely win, although that certainly plays a role. I'm saying that the game becomes unbalanced with these scrolls; the gameplay itself suffers. That's why I prefer playing HotA: it starts with three stacks, introduces new objects for experience, gold, and artifacts, which leads to better base development and hero progression, and a faster transition to the macro game. But when you find a teleportation scroll in a treasure chest on day 114 with Mass Slow, that's just too much. And for days 123-125, but I really had it on day 114. The Watchtower becomes meaningless, and the gameplay suffers. I also see drawbacks in the balance regarding artifacts that provide additional movement points. It often happens that one hero has two pairs of boots and gloves, while another has none. It would be good to reduce these artifacts, as was done in WoTA. Regarding the balance of magic, I'm sure someone has already suggested something similar: Reduce the mana cost of rarely used combat spells (sandstorm, minefield, counterspell, execution, frenzy, air shield, magic mirror) and increase the cost of the most effective ones, but only at the expert level (slow, haste, protection). However, if a player has an expert-level element, they should be able to use the spell at any level. For example, if a hero has expert earth, pressing Ctrl+click on Slow will cast the basic spell, and Shift+click will cast the advanced spell. In terms of balance, I'd also like to add (and I agree with those who have already mentioned it): 1. Reduce the effectiveness of logistics specialists. 2. Remove the free ballistas and cannons that heroes can recruit from the tavern if they don't arrive on the first day of the week. 3. Increase the growth rate of Hellhounds in Inferno to 7. This would make Fiona a viable alternative to Calhoon. 4. Remove the teleportation and armageddon spells from the sacred sites. If I remember anything else, I'll write it down

In reply to shpilenger

Pridu

10 years ago

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shpilenger

Regarding balance, I'd like to add (and I agree with those who already mentioned it):
1. Reduce the effectiveness of logistics specialists.
2. Remove the free ballistas and cannons that heroes can recruit from the tavern, unless they are available from the first day of the week.
3. Increase the growth rate of Hellhounds in Inferno to 7. Then Fiona will be a viable alternative to Kal'ku.
4. Remove the spells Teleport and Armageddon from the Sanctuary.

and allow all of this to be toggled on or off with checkboxes. Let each player have the heroes they envision!